CGC's Future: the crystal ball 2 2

[Krydel4]

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

Since I don't follow the sports card market, what exactly is this BCCG model and how would it apply to the comic book market? 

Beckett has a monthly price guide for graded cards. I could see them doing something like that for slabbed comics. 

[atomised]

On 10/24/2017 at 10:09 PM, Mmehdy said:

With Beckett's acquiring the "other company" in a stock merger, what is the next step for CGC and how with that impact us GA collectors who must depend of their expert advice as to whether  a book has been repaired...or something like that. GA collectors need a grading service, especially with current prices what they are.

 

 When the "Other Guy" started I predicted that they would either merge or CGC would buy them out and do a stock merger( 60% cgc/40% other guy) etc.  Now that they have upped their game and added tremendous capital to the their operation, look for expansion/faster service CGC cannot afford to stay in its position . What about CGC....here is my prediction, actually a few.

 

1-CGC is bought by HA.com

 

 They could do it and write a check, it would be a change of dynamic  for them , but they save $$ with in house grading of every book put at auction, their website expertise would help CGC out, and it could lead to more purchases and of course Ha makes the big bucks on coins, a natural for a merger.

 

2-CGC is bought by Steve Geppi

Big tax write off, cool merger with the "comic book price guide", possibly liking all comic shops to the CGC as grading stations, a lot of possibilities here with this one.

 

3-CGC and Beckett and "the other guy" still merge

 

 The most likely here, really this is how business works, buying market share...look for a 65/35 stock split with CGC on top. But since they both operate in Florida they could consolidate operations for higher profits.

 

Folks the future is exciting ...stay tuned..what are you thoughts?????

was this a stock merger?   I didn't think the terms of the deal were disclosed and I would expect mostly a cash deal between two relatively small privately held companies but you never know.  I would think comic link would actually be the player on the table that would be interesting to HA or to another auction house that is looking to diversify into the comic book category.  clink is a really small company compared to HA but they are part of the big 3 of cc, clink and HA.  I have no idea what kind of revenue clink is doing but maybe they are a lifestyle business turning over nice cash for the team.

[Mmehdy]

most deals done are stock deals..for example disney and Pixar...its all about the tax issues..this one is similar to what disney did. so when read Disney bought Pixar...for 7 billion, they did not just write a check..stock deal, my sources  also indicate it was a stock deal..... C-link is small fry...not mergeable with HA or CC...my sources also say Ha or Ha management was at the initial meeting with bruce hamilton when CGC started. Bruce was a big time supporter early on, the biggest...and then he turned agains the CGC  so to speak and privately thought they were...well, how do I put this....on the up and up so to speak and became a non-supporter. Bruce died which was major loss for fandom so he is not around today to see how CGC has grown. I believe stock was available at that time. I do not see a conflict if Jim or ha owns any stock..its an investment and ha has honored the "other guy" in their auctions and has not gone CGC exclusive. Watch the "other guy" now try that tactic. especially on a second tier auction house, by offering a major discount on grading or priority. The war has just begun and with Beckett's they are certainly in a stronger position than where they were.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Mmehdy

[Mr bla bla]

17 hours ago, telerites said:

Not trying to be critical with my question but are you saying HA was at fault for not suggesting the CGC grade did not meet your expectation of a 9.0 or that you did not agree with CGC's 9.0 grade when you received the book or that HA and CGC are in some clandestine partnership to sell overgraded slabs?  Or something else?

Was the book a consignment perhaps from a private party? 

Again just trying to understand and apologies for my apparent denseness and am not trying to defend HA, CGC, consignor, etc. - it just got curiosity piqued. 

 

 

It was stated up-thread there is ownership spillover across HA / CGC. That made me wonder if there could be conflict of interests here? If books Pre auction are submitted by/ through HA to CGC ? And then auctioned?

But its conjecture.

are you HA employee?

[lou_fine]

8 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

The war has just begun and with Beckett's they are certainly in a stronger position than where they were.

Hate to break the news to you, but I guess you hadn't noticed that the war had already started almost a couple of years ago by now. 

Around the time that the other company started to have a bigger foothold in the marketplace, CGC took the quick and easy business approach and simply "weaponized" their grades to ensure they would get back their market share and more. 

 

[telerites]

1 hour ago, Mr bla bla said:

It was stated up-thread there is ownership spillover across HA / CGC. That made me wonder if there could be conflict of interests here? If books Pre auction are submitted by/ through HA to CGC ? And then auctioned?

But its conjecture.

are you HA employee?

Goodness no I am not a HA employee and as I said I was in no way trying to defend HA, CGC, or any consignor.  I have never consigned to HA.  I am retired state employee and not even from Texas   

I was just curious as I said and evidently read too much into your post.

[Mr bla bla]

1 hour ago, telerites said:

Goodness no I am not a HA employee and as I said I was in no way trying to defend HA, CGC, or any consignor.  I have never consigned to HA.  I am retired state employee and not even from Texas   

I was just curious as I said and evidently read too much into your post.

Thanks for your kind answer Telerites .

Fred

[Mmehdy]

2 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Hate to break the news to you, but I guess you hadn't noticed that the war had already started almost a couple of years ago by now. 

Around the time that the other company started to have a bigger foothold in the marketplace, CGC took the quick and easy business approach and simply "weaponized" their grades to ensure they would get back their market share and more. 

 

I believe the "other guy" is in a much better position, today, after the merger than a couple of years ago...bigger, stronger, and more $$$$ means more competition for CGC, and possibly a "price war" down the line..hopefully

[N e r V]

Isn’t the “other guy” still suffering from some market perception with CGC still being the preferred label on books?

It certainly still seems that way on many auctions I watch.

I would think that getting your image as a company onto parity with CGC would be your first order of business but I don’t see Beckett being able to do anything to change that for them.

I’m not stating an opinion of preference here either but when the “other guy” first entered the market I know some dealers were cheering with hopes of better service, more accurate grading, blah blah blah... but my experience is that a CGC book in most cases will move more quickly and higher in price than the “other guy”.

They are hardly PGX but I would say they still suffer from an image problem in the market somewhat. They need to figure out a path to be equal if they ever hope to surpass CGC in the market. More than money is needed to shift their status.

[Bomber-Bob]

13 minutes ago, N e r V said:

Isn’t the “other guy” still suffering from some market perception with CGC still being the preferred label on books?

It certainly still seems that way on many auctions I watch.

I would think that getting your image as a company onto parity with CGC would be your first order of business but I don’t see Beckett being able to do anything to change that for them.

I’m not stating an opinion of preference here either but when the “other guy” first entered the market I know some dealers were cheering with hopes of better service, more accurate grading, blah blah blah... but my experience is that a CGC book in most cases will move more quickly and higher in price than the “other guy”.

They are hardly PGX but I would say they still suffer from an image problem in the market somewhat. They need to figure out a path to be equal if they ever hope to surpass CGC in the market. More than money is needed to shift their status.

I'll probably get a slap from our hosts for saying this I think there are bargains out there with the 'other guys' products. While it cannot be disputed that CGC slabbed books command a better price, I do think the 'other guys' have been grading tighter. I noticed this at the last Chicago Wizard World in August. Greg Reece had some fresh to market 'other guy' books that looked phenomenal for the grades. Others noticed also and some of the books were sent to CGC where they graded out higher, in some cases much higher.  Just saying.

[Zolnerowich]

5 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

I'll probably get a slap from our hosts for saying this I think there are bargains out there with the 'other guys' products. While it cannot be disputed that CGC slabbed books command a better price, I do think the 'other guys' have been grading tighter. I noticed this at the last Chicago Wizard World in August. Greg Reece had some fresh to market 'other guy' books that looked phenomenal for the grades. Others noticed also and some of the books were sent to CGC where they graded out higher, in some cases much higher.  Just saying.

Interesting observations.

Just asking: do the graders at CGC or the other place know the identity of the book submitter when they grade a book?

And does HA submit books they’ve purchased (from dealers and comic cons and other third parties) for grading at CGC, for resale at their own HA auctions?

[Mmehdy]

5 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

I'll probably get a slap from our hosts for saying this I think there are bargains out there with the 'other guys' products. While it cannot be disputed that CGC slabbed books command a better price, I do think the 'other guys' have been grading tighter. I noticed this at the last Chicago Wizard World in August. Greg Reece had some fresh to market 'other guy' books that looked phenomenal for the grades. Others noticed also and some of the books were sent to CGC where they graded out higher, in some cases much higher.  Just saying.

I noticed that coming out of the starting gate..a bit more careful...but over time I think the collector will be the ultimate judge, I mean 9-4/9.6 is subjective anyway, and I believe early on CGC was bit on the cautious side.

[Bomber-Bob]

1 hour ago, Zolnerowich said:

Interesting observations.

Just asking: do the graders at CGC or the other place know the identity of the book submitter when they grade a book?

And does HA submit books they’ve purchased (from dealers and comic cons and other third parties) for grading at CGC, for resale at their own HA auctions?

In theory, the graders are supposed to know absolutely nothing about the books in hand. If you deslabbed the book before submitting they wouldn't know anyway. Regarding HA, I have no idea but I suspect it happens. To be honest, I don't have a problem, no biggie, with any relationship that may exist between HA and CGC. 

 

[Bomber-Bob]

1 hour ago, Mmehdy said:

I noticed that coming out of the starting gate..a bit more careful...but over time I think the collector will be the ultimate judge, I mean 9-4/9.6 is subjective anyway, and I believe early on CGC was bit on the cautious side.

I remember Borock, in the early days of CGC, stating he liked to assign a 'safe' grade or as you stated more cautious. I'll tell you what though, I would like to CGC implement the eye appeal check mark. I understand they already do it with cards. This would allow CGC, on a tweener, to give the lower grade with a checkmark.  I like tight grading, good for the hobby. Who wants to get a 9.8 that has visible spine ticks ?

[N e r V]

Almost every book I’ve had graded in the past year which includes buys from boardies, Bedrock, Dale Roberts, Superworld, Metro, etc., etc. has been running a half grade lower on a average from CGC than what I purchased them at. So maybe it’s just my books but the grading seems tighter lately.

Edited October 27, 2017 by N e r V

[Mmehdy]

2 hours ago, N e r V said:

Almost every book I’ve had graded in the past year which includes buys from boardies, Bedrock, Dale Roberts, Superworld, Metro, etc., etc. has been running a half grade lower on a average from CGC than what I purchased them at. So maybe it’s just my books but the grading seems tighter lately.

how many was that?

[lou_fine]

23 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

On 10/26/2017 at 9:19 AM, lou_fine said:

Hate to break the news to you, but I guess you hadn't noticed that the war had already started almost a couple of years ago by now. 

Around the time that the other company started to have a bigger foothold in the marketplace, CGC took the quick and easy business approach and simply "weaponized" their grades to ensure they would get back their market share and more. 

 

I believe the "other guy" is in a much better position, today, after the merger than a couple of years ago...bigger, stronger, and more $$$$ means more competition for CGC, and possibly a "price war" down the line..hopefully

I actually have absolutely no problem at all with a price war, or even price increases for that matter, because it is something that is obvious and clearly visible that all potential customers can see and make their own decisions if they want to use that service or not. 

The issue I have is when they compromise their own product by having a "grading war" in a veiled attempt to give the impression that they have a superior product that has more value, as compared to the competitor which as a result, must then have an inferior product.  Of course, we all know what happens here when we get the expected response from the other competing companies.  Although some customers think they are getting ahead, it's actually a slow spiral and what I call a race to the bottom, with both the hobby and marketplace losing out long term unless one of them puts a stop to the silly game. 

Especially when the grading standards are undisclosed to the marketplace and as a result, open to subtle but significant changes almost at a whim in order to align with the business agenda of the day. 

[lou_fine]

15 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

16 hours ago, Zolnerowich said:

Interesting observations.

Just asking: do the graders at CGC or the other place know the identity of the book submitter when they grade a book?

And does HA submit books they’ve purchased (from dealers and comic cons and other third parties) for grading at CGC, for resale at their own HA auctions?

In theory, the graders are supposed to know absolutely nothing about the books in hand. If you deslabbed the book before submitting they wouldn't know anyway. Regarding HA, I have no idea but I suspect it happens. To be honest, I don't have a problem, no biggie, with any relationship that may exist between HA and CGC. 

I believe that all of the auction houses will submit raw books on behalf of their consignors if requested to do so.

It's all part of their customer service as many of the consignors simply couldn't be bothered with doing up the paperwork and all of the shipping hassles.  It's all about winning the consignments from the potential sellers and I don't have any issue at all with this part of the process. 

[lou_fine]

14 hours ago, N e r V said:

Almost every book I’ve had graded in the past year which includes buys from boardies, Bedrock, Dale Roberts, Superworld, Metro, etc., etc. has been running a half grade lower on a average from CGC than what I purchased them at. So maybe it’s just my books but the grading seems tighter lately.

Tighter is always good as long as it is reasonable and does not reach the point of undergrading. 

When you get to the point of having your own previously 9.2 graded books coming back as 8.0's in some cases or previously graded 9.6's coming back as only 9.2's, then you've gone way past the point of tight grading.  Although you might be grading tighter than the competition FOR NOW, you've also unfortunately in effect invalidated all of the grades for your own previously graded books. 

The best type of grading is not the one who comes in with the tightest or lowest grade on a book, but rather the one who can grade both accurately and consistently.   

Edited October 27, 2017 by lou_fine

[Knightsofold]

I hope this results in better customer service at CGC, and the long overdue free graders notes.  I still prefer cgc.