Insurance Reimbursement - Valuation 1 1

[Eggman]

Hi everyone.  I haven't posted in a bit but things have settled down somewhat for me and my family since the big Santa Rosa fires.  I want to thank the many, many people for their kind words and support.

My insurance should cover my lost comics.  However, I have to put together a painfully detailed book by book listing of my entire collection...thousands and thousands of books.  Part of that process is to assign a valuation to each book.  And therein lies my questions to those that have gone thru this:

For all CGC books, that's easy.  I'll use GPAnalysis.  I registered almost all of them as well.

For those raw:

(1) Use a "discounted CGC price" for the value?  (Subtracting grading fees?)

(2) Use Overstreet Price Guide?

(3) Use ebay?

(4) A combination of the above?

I'd like to be consistent in my methodology if possible.  I'd like to have feedback from those that have gone thru this or even from some insurance adjusters on this board.

Thanks for all of your help!

Eggman

[ygogolak]

First, just want to be clear. Your homeowners insurance is going to cover your comics? I've always heard you need a separate collectibles insurance policy. And, in my research, you can't get that without a list of the collectibles.

[shadroch]

I recently  had a flood. All State paid for two boxes of modern comics, as well as the boxes, boards and elites. They also covered the comic drawer boxes my more expensive books were in. Collectors Insurance is covering the more valuable books. I took photos of the damaged books and simply used mycomicshops sell your comics tab to compile a list of the damaged books. In my case,I still had the books to photograph.

I was told CIA has a method of determining fair market value. I didn't put in a price, only titles and conditions.

[Eggman]

5 hours ago, ygogolak said:

First, just want to be clear. Your homeowners insurance is going to cover your comics? I've always heard you need a separate collectibles insurance policy. And, in my research, you can't get that without a list of the collectibles.

Yes.  For catastrophic fire loss, it does.  For theft and such, a measly $2500 cap.

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Eggman

[Brock]

I have served as an "expert witness" for the Ontario (Canada) courts in legal cases seeking compensation for damaged and destroyed comics due to flooding. You can PM me if you'd like to get into greater detail, but one technique I have used is to create a chart that considers market pricing from a range of sources. To give a good range, I'll often include Overstreet, comicspriceguide.com, Mile High Comics, mycomicshop.com, and completed ebay sales.

Of course Mile High is, well, mile high in its prices, but the full list gives a pretty good range to work from, and represents a mix of price guides, commercial list prices, and auction sales. The key in the cases I have worked on relates to suggesting that replacement value for specific books is much higher than for a general lot of books (i.e. Replacing 100 specific books is more expensive tha simply acquiring any 100 books, wether they're golden age rarities, or modern drek).

Edited December 5, 2017 by Brock

[Moondog]

No need to short-change yourself.  The replacement value of a 2-year old modern is going to be $2-$3.  For a  30-year-old modern: $2-$3.  You can't assume that any book you have is readily available for a quarter in a bargain box. 

[ygogolak]

2 hours ago, Moondog said:

No need to short-change yourself.  The replacement value of a 2-year old modern is going to be $2-$3.  For a  30-year-old modern: $2-$3.  You can't assume that any book you have is readily available for a quarter in a bargain box. 

[comicwiz]

It's important to understand whether your insurer will cover your loss using actual cash value (ACV), or replacement cost value. You can certainly do the comparables research, but only replacement cost will cover you to replace your item in the present time for it's current market worth.

[sfcityduck]

Given that you are facing a total fire loss, I imagine the biggest issue you'll be facing is the question of whether your total limits of insurance are adequate.  If, for example, your non-comic personal property losses are going to max out your applicable limits, you may want to put off the arduous task of trying to value thousands of comics.  You might want to start with the big books until you hit limits.

As for methodology, you are going to need to calculate the market value or replacement value (which are essentially the same here).  The best method to do that is either using (1) actual comparable sales (GPA and auction results probably works for all books, but not Overstreet) or (2) the price of actual comparable items for sale (e.g. listings).

[comicdonna]

After our fire, I had to list everything that was in the house, and purchase price.  Anything over $75 I had to find and show proof of replacement value.  Comics weren't an issue because Allstate only paid 1K max on comics. 

[Eggman]

1 hour ago, comicwiz said:

It's important to understand whether your insurer will cover your loss using actual cash value (ACV), or replacement cost value. You can certainly do the comparables research, but only replacement cost will cover you to replace your item in the present time for it's current market worth.

Thank you for your comments, comicwiz.  They will cover the replacement cost.

1 hour ago, sfcityduck said:

Given that you are facing a total fire loss, I imagine the biggest issue you'll be facing is the question of whether your total limits of insurance are adequate.  If, for example, your non-comic personal property losses are going to max out your applicable limits, you may want to put off the arduous task of trying to value thousands of comics.  You might want to start with the big books until you hit limits.

As for methodology, you are going to need to calculate the market value or replacement value (which are essentially the same here).  The best method to do that is either using (1) actual comparable sales (GPA and auction results probably works for all books, but not Overstreet) or (2) the price of actual comparable items for sale (e.g. listings).

Thanks for your comments sfcityduck.  My limits are good, even for my large collection fortunately.

 

1 hour ago, comicdonna said:

After our fire, I had to list everything that was in the house, and purchase price.  Anything over $75 I had to find and show proof of replacement value. 

Thanks for your comments comicdonna.  Compiling the "mega listing" of the thousands of my books will be very challenging, but it is precisely the question of replacement value -- what source/sources -- is what I am asking for.

 

[comicdonna]

I used ebay for a lot of stuff.  Specifically for comics, Heritage, Ebay and what about GPA?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

15 hours ago, Eggman said:

Thank you for your comments, comicwiz.  They will cover the replacement cost.

Thanks for your comments sfcityduck.  My limits are good, even for my large collection fortunately.

 

Thanks for your comments comicdonna.  Compiling the "mega listing" of the thousands of my books will be very challenging, but it is precisely the question of replacement value -- what source/sources -- is what I am asking for.

 

I don't know if this helps or not, but the HO4 policy w/ the riders and limits you state you have, should cover the cost of a licensed appraiser that is recognized for the necessary evaluation of the particular item(s). Give the property list to that person, and relax. if I saw the language of the Rider, I could verify, but your agent should be able to answer this, and more particularly, back up the answer with policy language and description of same that applies to the policy. Loss valuation is not always loss valuation, or for that matter, evaluation. The goal here is value agreement within the language of the policy. 

[comicwiz]

19 hours ago, Eggman said:

Thank you for your comments, comicwiz.  They will cover the replacement cost.

One of the most important pieces of information an appraiser can have is scans or photographic evidence. This may not be possible in your situation, however it's crucial when you are preparing a desktop appraisal and need to assert the item you lost was in X condition, and is worth X commensurate to it's grade. The comparables data collection is really important for you, to make sure the adjuster isn't cherry-picking value data that minimizes their payout obligation.

You might be fine with serial numbers from your slabs, but I'd still capture at least three auctions for each book. Mine the actually listing if using GPA, and PDF print the original listing. Not having the photographic "proof" on your raw books may/may not become an issue, but collect three data points for each of the items for a certain value threshold using eBay. That threshold can be value based (i.e. for comics with an individual worth  of $100 or more, $500 or more, $1K or more, etc.) And on the rest, perhaps come to a valuation as a grouping. You should also keep a separate tally for what costs you will incur to acquire. This make more sense on higher value pieces where insurance will be necessary to ship to you, or on signed books which require out of pocket expenses in situations where a book, artists appearance, or willingness/ability to sign, or any combination of these things increases the competition or costs to replace.

Once you tabulated everything, feel free to PM me and I'll have a look at what you have and can offer an opinion. Certainly do this with someone when the adjusters offer is made to you, especially if that number doesn't jive with your totals. 

Edited December 6, 2017 by comicwiz

[shadroch]

On a related front, All State determined my losses of non-collectible items to be just over $6,000, with a depreciated value of $5200. I had a $1,000 deductible so they sent a payment of $2200 and are holding about $1900 that they release when I send receipts showing I've replaced some items. Shouldn't they send an itemized list of what they will pay for an item. I understand my five year old DVR isn't worth much , but how do I know how much they are allowing for the replacement? I expected a much more detailed summary from them.

Have not submitted the list of comics to CIA yet. I thought I'd wait to see what AllState paid or didn't pay before going to my secondary. I filed the claim immediately, just have not submitted the inventory sheet yet.

[comicwiz]

 

5 hours ago, shadroch said:

On a related front, All State determined my losses of non-collectible items to be just over $6,000, with a depreciated value of $5200. I had a $1,000 deductible so they sent a payment of $2200 and are holding about $1900 that they release when I send receipts showing I've replaced some items. Shouldn't they send an itemized list of what they will pay for an item. I understand my five year old DVR isn't worth much , but how do I know how much they are allowing for the replacement? I expected a much more detailed summary from them.

What you are describing is very likely a policy written on actual cash value (ACV). Replacement cost value does not use depreciated value. As I've mentioned in past posts, the giveaway you aren't covered by replacement cost value is if an insurer ask for reciepts. If you have a PayPal receipt, or printout from an eBay listing for an AF 15 from 5 years ago, that will be no good to you on a comic that has appreciated greatly since it was purchased, and only replacement cost coverage will cover you on the items current worth in the present time.

Edited December 7, 2017 by comicwiz

[Eggman]

15 hours ago, comicwiz said:

 

What you are describing is very likely a policy written on actual cash value (ACV). Replacement cost value does not use depreciated value. As I've mentioned in past posts, the giveaway you aren't covered by replacement cost value is if an insurer ask for reciepts.

Thanks for your comments, comicwiz.  My insurance company is not asking for receipts.

[Moondog]

I've found that simple is always better when dealing with insurance companies.  As long as you have an itemized inventory, you should be able to calculate the value of your slabs by using GPA.  I would use the OPG for everything else.  Show the adjuster exactly how you did it.  If the insurance company brings in an appraiser, explain your method.  If you don't have grades of the raw books, I would price all the moderns at 9.2 Overstreet, the bronze and SA around Fine.  This should seem reasonable to an appraiser.

[marvelmaniac]

I was so sorry and saddened when I read about your loss so this is kind of after the fact and it is and disheartening that we are even discussing this at all but...

Should this ever happens again (God Forbid) to you or someone else i would just like to add my 

I have OCD and so I have a Detailed List of Everything in my Apartment with Photographs, Individual Photographs of important higher dollar items and 5-6 views of each room.

As things are added or replaced the list and photo's are updated.

My renters insurance covers "Cost Of Replacement".

As far as my Comics and Collectibles they are insured through https://collectinsure.com/?gclid=CJu3heLP8cUCFYuPHwod4kgAww

Two years ago I regraded all of my books, made a detailed list of all books and their grades/grader notes and I photographed all 3600 books and they are listed with their grades.

All of my info for my Apartment Contents and Comics/Collectibles are stored on my Computer and Two Separate Flashdrives.

One flashdrive stays in the apartment, the other goes with me everywhere I go so if something should happen the info is not lost.

CIS also has a list of all of my comics/collectibles and at the end of each year I send them a list of whatever I had purchased/added to the collection that year so my file is up to date.

Hope everything works out.