What's up with Rob Liefeld? No CGC? 4 4

[revat]

16 hours ago, Logan510 said:

17 hours ago, NoMan said:

What about Frank Miller? Does that add value?

Obviously there must be some market for SS books, otherwise there wouldn't be people who make the lions share of their income selling them.

How many people in the entire world do you think make the lion's share of their income selling CGC SS?  And how much money do you think they're making from the selling of those books?  And most of THOSE PEOPLE DOUBLE AS FACILITATORS.

I'm not saying the rest of the people don't TRY to sell for profit sometimes, and sometimes even quite successfully.   But I would guess less than 1/8 (and probably way less) of TOTAL CGC SS slabs in existence have EVER been sold for more than 5% profit.  And I think we can all agree that 5% is not really worth the time or risk for most CGC SS.  And if you take the pre-sales of Beachbum and Rich Henn out (which are really more facilitating than slab selling), the number drops wayyyyy down.

There just aren't stacks to be made by the average person. 

And yes, of course people can charge what they want for whatever reason they want.  Just like people can choose to vote based on 'fake news' or fake news.  It's their right, and NO ONE is saying it isn't.  But does anyone honestly think a creator (or anyone) wants to make financial decisions based on false assumptions, which might lead legitimate real fans have worse experience when meeting them?  and to think less of them?  And for them to mistakenly have worse impression of the fan?  Who wins?  And they'll never know how much money they gave up or fans they lost because I know I've had books prepped and just bypassed booths entirely when I see a $20 cgc fee.  And I'm sure I'm not the only one.  And these are booths that are reasonably empty with little lines. 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 minutes ago, revat said:

And they'll never know how much money they gave up or fans they lost because I know I've had books prepped and just bypassed booths entirely when I see a $20 cgc fee.  And I'm sure I'm not the only one.  And these are booths that are reasonably empty with little lines. 

No, you're not the only one. As I've mentioned too many times now, I have a short box of books for Marv Wolfman to sign. They sit here, unsigned. 

And the dishonest provocateurs, who muddy the water with straw men arguments and mischaracterizations, don't help anything.

What's even worse, at least in my opinion, is that they create a situation which tempts...encourages...people to lie to them. Yes, no one should be lying to anyone. But when you sit there, and someone asks you what you are doing with your own property, many thoughts flash through your head, like "is this lady for real...? Why is it any of her business...?" and "oh, damn, they're going to charge me more for this??" and "if I say "none of your business", they won't sign, and then my whole trip is wasted!"

All in the blink of an eye. 

Not excusing lying, but in that awkward moment, creating an environment which tempts people to lie to you doesn't leave you blameless.

[NoMan]

36 minutes ago, revat said:

 

  But does anyone honestly think a creator (or anyone) wants to make financial decisions based on false assumptions, which might lead legitimate real fans have worse experience when meeting them?  and to think less of them?  And for them to mistakenly have worse impression of the fan?  Who wins? 

 

I'm thinking about bailing on getting a Chris Clairmont sig (raw, non CGC SS) and thanking him telling him how much I enjoy his writing because of this madness. I don't know who's to blame. I'm sure there's plenty of blame to go around, fan and creator and facilitator.  I know, I know, the creator's don't care. Who needs me to thank them and tell them their writing has meant a lot to me? Especially a fan like me who's just gonna cherish the book and experience. Not gonna flip it. I know, I'm just a simple naive fool. It's all about the $$$.

Actually, from the 411 from board members here, I'll get Clairmont's sig and shake is hand. But the person I hold in highest esteem, who's work is second-to-none to me is Frank Miller circa DD run, DTR and Batman Year One and I wouldn't bother getting anywhere near him to say "thank you."

[RockMyAmadeus]

"Obviously there must be some market for SS books, otherwise there wouldn't be people who make the lions share of their income selling them." 

This is just another manifestation of someone counting someone else's money. Whether that's true or not...and it is, in a small handful of cases...it's not relevant to the discussion, because it's nobody's business what someone else does, or doesn't, make as their income. 

Far be it from me to poo-poo side discussions...I live for side discussions, obviously...but how much something sells for on eBay, how much money people are making, or might be making, or aren't making, regardless of whether it's the creator's view or the facilitator's view or the customer's view or CGC's view, whether or not someone is a "real fan" (whatever THAT means) or just a dirty flipper...all of it is completely and utterly irrelevant to the point.

What I do with my property is none of your business. What you do with your property is none of my business. Charging a different price to the same person or type of person for the exact same service is discriminatory and bad business. It ultimately does not matter what the justification is. All of these side arguments about what people do, and how they're really fans, and how much or how little they make, etc. etc. etc., can go a long way toward making people FEEL better, but ultimately, the real answer, the correct answer is: what I do with my property is none of your concern. You shouldn't be asking. And you shouldn't be charging a different price for the same service.

Want a special price for kids? Knock yourself out. Want a special price for hot chicks/dudes? Knock yourself out. Want a special price for seniors? Knock yourself out. Want a special price for cosplayers? Knock yourself out. Want to charge a HIGHER price for cosplayers? I'm with you.

But don't tell me I have to pay a different price for THIS comic than THAT comic, because of what you think I might do with both. It's none of your business. 

Don't count my money, and I won't count yours.

[Pirate]

On 3/9/2018 at 2:31 PM, Celestial Comics said:

It is the “right” of the creator to charge IF that is what they choose to do.

As for are we a facilitator who “encourages” creators to “charge extra” for CGC? The answer is we “RESPECT” the creator’s rights and decision to want to charge a fee. It is THEIR right and THEIR decision to charge a fee. We don’t encourage or discourage it. We simple RESPECT it. We make nothing more from a creator who chooses to charge a fee, we simply pass the same charge onto the customer.

Just as it is YOUR right to choose NOT to pay the fee and to walk away from getting you items signed. And we RESPECT that right as well.

What you DON’T have a right to do, is LIE to a creator when he asks you the question if the book he is signing will be graded or not. It is because of actions like that, that has caused creators to do what they do, such as using specific facilitators or handlers to PROTECT them.

Pot meet kettle.  I can't believe what I just read.

[Pirate]

2 hours ago, seanfingh said:

It certainly does. 

More people should be paying attention to who is leaving the market.  It is quite strong right now, but are the people coming in replacing the ones leaving?  Is the new pricing structure a barrier to entry.  Are there people who would otherwise become heavy users who are never reaching that level because of the current economic climate? Does the shrinking of the congenial group of like minded collectors bode ill for the future?

I don't know the answers to these questions, but ignoring them, being glib and dismissive, and refusing to foster productive discourse does not seem to be a prudent course of action.

 

I left $30 in my pocket when I found out Steranko charges that for an auto Saturday.

[seanfingh]

38 minutes ago, Pirate said:

I left $30 in my pocket when I found out Steranko charges that for an auto Saturday.

 

Glad to see you post, bud. Hope you and the whole family are well!!

[mysterio]

4 hours ago, seanfingh said:

It certainly does. 

More people should be paying attention to who is leaving the market.  It is quite strong right now, but are the people coming in replacing the ones leaving?  Is the new pricing structure a barrier to entry.  Are there people who would otherwise become heavy users who are never reaching that level because of the current economic climate? Does the shrinking of the congenial group of like minded collectors bode ill for the future?

I don't know the answers to these questions, but ignoring them, being glib and dismissive, and refusing to foster productive discourse does not seem to be a prudent course of action.

 

I'm doing a LOT fewer books than I did 4-5 years ago. I was never a huge player in SS, but I would do a couple dozen a year there for a while. As prices have escalated I have turned more of that money into SA books rather than modern SS. I think I've done one SS book in the last 3-4 years (a Starlin last month).

Edited March 12, 2018 by mysterio

[RockMyAmadeus]

57 minutes ago, Pirate said:

On 3/9/2018 at 11:31 AM, Celestial Comics said:

What you DON’T have a right to do, is LIE to a creator when he asks you the question if the book he is signing will be graded or not. It is because of actions like that, that has caused creators to do what they do, such as using specific facilitators or handlers to PROTECT them.

Pot meet kettle.  I can't believe what I just read.

Amazing, innit? I was just reading the original quote and was thinking about it. The backwards, pretzel-twisting thinking that would lead someone to make such a statement is pretty incredible. It's a perfect example of putting the cart before the horse.

They say it's because people have "LIED" to creators about whether a book they are signing will be graded or not, so that's why they need this protection racket, Mafia-style, constructing elaborate rationales to justify it all: so people don't lie to them. So the rabid barbarian hordes of unwashed slab flippers won't take advantage of the poor, defenseless creators, they stand, White Knights all, as the bulwark against the masses...or is that without the "m"...?...to demand to know what their intentions are, so they may be charged the appropriate penalt...er, punishme...er, price. 

Y'know what the real solution to that "problem" is...?

Don't ask. It's none of your business.

Don't ask people questions that aren't any of your business, and you'll remove the incentive to lie to you.

Problem solved.

#firstworldproblems

[Pirate]

48 minutes ago, seanfingh said:

 

Glad to see you post, bud. Hope you and the whole family are well!!

I usually pop up in every DWC thread

[RockMyAmadeus]

"But...But...But...people are making MONEY off my signature!!"

None of your business. If you feel that way, charge more, or don't sign. Be a businessman about it. You only have a right to your signature, before you sign. You don't have a right to the item you're signing, or that signature after you've signed it. It no longer belongs to you.

"But...But...But...it's not FAIR for people to make money off of MY effort!!"

Says who? Do you know how it works? If you don't, why are you complaining? Are you aware that you can do the exact same thing? Why aren't you educating yourself before jumping to conclusions?

People make money off your effort every day: it's called the comic publishing business. That's the compromise you make to get your work out to as wide an audience as possible. You make money, other people...who had nothing whatsoever to do with your creation of the book...make money. That's how business works.

"But...But...But...what if someone wants me to sign 50 copies of the exact same book??"

My suggestion is "be very glad someone thought enough of your work to be willing to buy 50 copies of it, and stop worrying about what other people do with their property." Duh.

"But...But...But...I don't want to sign that many books!"

So...don't. Your hand, your rules. Sign as many, or as few, as you want. Just treat everybody the same, and charge everybody the same. And recognize that, the minute you start charging, you are no longer doing a "favor"...it's now a transaction, with negotiating rights on BOTH sides.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, Pirate said:

I usually pop up in every DWC thread

I need some Pirate love for some of my posts.

Come on...you can do it...gimme some Pirate affirmation....

[Pirate]

Just now, RockMyAmadeus said:

I need some Pirate love for some of my posts.

Come on...you can do it...gimme some Pirate affirmation....

and ruin my sweet sweet deal with some facilitators?  No way Jose.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, Pirate said:

and ruin my sweet sweet deal with some facilitators?  No way Jose.

[RockMyAmadeus]

And for God's sake, people, if someone signs your books and doesn't change you anything...and you're getting more than 1-2 books signed...BUY something of theirs, or go donate to the Heroes Initiative on their behalf (and make sure you tell them who it's for) if they don't have a bucket.

"But didn't I already support them by buying their work?" Yes, absolutely, but if you go BEYOND what's expected, other people might, too. It absolutely cannot hurt. It's a nice way to live. Be generous! We're all just caretakers of this stuff anyway.

[Logan510]

3 hours ago, revat said:

How many people in the entire world do you think make the lion's share of their income selling CGC SS?  And how much money do you think they're making from the selling of those books?  And most of THOSE PEOPLE DOUBLE AS FACILITATORS.

I'm not saying the rest of the people don't TRY to sell for profit sometimes, and sometimes even quite successfully.   But I would guess less than 1/8 (and probably way less) of TOTAL CGC SS slabs in existence have EVER been sold for more than 5% profit.  And I think we can all agree that 5% is not really worth the time or risk for most CGC SS.  And if you take the pre-sales of Beachbum and Rich Henn out (which are really more facilitating than slab selling), the number drops wayyyyy down.

There just aren't stacks to be made by the average person. 

And yes, of course people can charge what they want for whatever reason they want.  Just like people can choose to vote based on 'fake news' or fake news.  It's their right, and NO ONE is saying it isn't.  But does anyone honestly think a creator (or anyone) wants to make financial decisions based on false assumptions, which might lead legitimate real fans have worse experience when meeting them?  and to think less of them?  And for them to mistakenly have worse impression of the fan?  Who wins?  And they'll never know how much money they gave up or fans they lost because I know I've had books prepped and just bypassed booths entirely when I see a $20 cgc fee.  And I'm sure I'm not the only one.  And these are booths that are reasonably empty with little lines. 

 

 

As I've said in this very thread, I feel for the collectors who're caught in the middle of this.

For others, the bottom line is it's affecting their bottom line. Why they feel the need to wrap it up as anything but that is a mystery to me 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

44 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

For others, the bottom line is it's affecting their bottom line. Why they feel the need to wrap it up as anything but that is a mystery to me 

 

With the respect that is due, you keep repeating the same lie over and over again, I'm sure some group of people will eventually believe you. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[reddwarf666222]

4 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

What I do with my property is none of your business. What you do with your property is none of my business. Charging a different price to the same person or type of person for the exact same service is discriminatory and bad business. It ultimately does not matter what the justification is. All of these side arguments about what people do, and how they're really fans, and how much or how little they make, etc. etc. etc., can go a long way toward making people FEEL better, but ultimately, the real answer, the correct answer is: what I do with my property is none of your concern. You shouldn't be asking. And you shouldn't be charging a different price for the same service.

 

What is your plans for your signed Falco Record Album

[Logan510]

28 minutes ago, SueStu said:

It's even worse than you than you say. People are so shallow and entitled today they think they have to slab every comic. If these people were real fans they'd enjoy meeting the creator, enjoy getting a sig, and not get the book slabbed. Imagine that! I don't think they can...

Because 

I agree, but not 100% as I believe that people are entitled to collect the way that makes them happy  

I have done SS once and to be honest it was purely done for the flip, I have had several books signed by creators I love and I enjoy the memory of meeting, chatting etc more than the actual book, the book is just a reminder of the experience.

 

[Logan510]

14 hours ago, SueStu said:

I agree, collect however you want. It's just the broken-record person_without_enough_empathying, whining, and preaching from Father Joe that's grating. 

"But what if live really far away and can't make it to shows?"

Welcome to 1938 - 2001.

 

Aside from the one SS I did where another person got the sigs for me, I have only had one item signed for me when I wasn't present.

I was originally scheduled to attend the out of state show, but at the last minute had to bail out. I asked my best friend to get me a Frank Brunner sig on one of his sketchbooks.

While I treasure the book, I really wish I had been able to meet him and tell him for what I'm sure is the millionth time he's heard it, how much I loved his work.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Logan510