What's up with Rob Liefeld? No CGC?
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7 hours ago, RadiantGraphix said:

Part of me thinks that Albert Moy is to blame for that ridiculous price. But that might be a result to the brain-scrambling I got by reading this entire thread again just now. The 3-4 times I’ve met Jim Lee he seems really charitable and nice... not the kind of guy who charges $1000 for a card stock sketch or $4000 for a bust on a sketch cover. The man gives away more detailed pieces on each of his Twitch streams.

I'm a huge Jim Lee fan - I grew up reading his X-Men V2 run, and got a chance to meet him last year at Fan Expo and got the "Ultimate Jim Lee Experience" package ($150) to get 3 books signed and graded. He's a great guy in person, I've sat in on his panels (where he's funny and personable), and follow him on social media. That being said, he understands his "fame" in the comic book community, and isn't shy about charging a fulsome price. He will almost always have a free public signing as well (and he often does free signings at various comic store events), with the expected long lines required. Bottom line - great guy, but also a great businessman who's capitalizing on his hard work and long career making some coin while he can. 

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44 minutes ago, CKinTO said:

That being said, he understands his "fame" in the comic book community, and isn't shy about charging a fulsome price. He will almost always have a free public signing as well (and he often does free signings at various comic store events), with the expected long lines required. Bottom line - great guy, but also a great businessman who's capitalizing on his hard work and long career making some coin while he can. 

I’d rather see him charge $5 a signature and drop the prices on his sketch covers to a reasonable price than have him giving away his signature and charging RIDICULOUS prices for sketch ops. $4000-11,000 is a price range that gets you ORIGINAL PUBLISHED ART by Jack Kirby and the likes.  I can partial understand pricing work at a level so he doesn’t have to take on a lot of commissions, but I’m the conspiracy theorist that just thinks some facilitators take advantage of the artists they represent and the fans are the ones that end up paying dearly for it.  

 

That being said, I still hope to get a piece by Jim in the future. 

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It probably is facilitators charging fee's on top of CGC's price... I paid like $154 to get a Amazing Spider-Man 100 signed by Stan Lee graded... The receipt I got back from CGC said the grading was only $64.00 

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4 hours ago, tommydee89 said:

It probably is facilitators charging fee's on top of CGC's price... I paid like $154 to get a Amazing Spider-Man 100 signed by Stan Lee graded... The receipt I got back from CGC said the grading was only $64.00 

Hey, man, everyone's gotta make their cut, right...? Except you. You're not allowed to make anything. That would make you a "greedy flipper." But everyone else...? It's just their jobs, man.

Albert Moy is a glutton.

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Good post, Chuck. To add to that, I'll say this that I've said elsewhere: creators do not understand collecting. They just don't. They cannot fathom why anyone would want more than one copy of anything. It is foreign to them. So, the guy bringing up the beat up copy may have never actually read them, while the guy bringing up the pristine, beautiful, window-bagged perfect copy may have read the story a dozen times, which is why they want to get it signed.

But creators don't know this, because they don't understand collecting, and many, many of them think collectors are a little off...and, while they're not wrong, they still don't understand why.

If you tried to explain the vagaries of collecting to a creator, they usually get that glazed over look in the eyes, nod, and then hope you go away soon. And that goes quadruple or more for slabs. "So, you're willing to pay $1,000 for this copy of New Mutants #98, but you won't pay $250 for that copy, when they're completely identical (to their eyes)...? Oooook."

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On 5/21/2018 at 11:04 PM, tommydee89 said:

It probably is facilitators charging fee's on top of CGC's price... I paid like $154 to get a Amazing Spider-Man 100 signed by Stan Lee graded... The receipt I got back from CGC said the grading was only $64.00 

@tommydee89

Considering Stan's in hand fee for just the autograph was probably $180 at the time (maybe $160?) and prior to 2018, he'd been steady at around $100 ish for a while---I'd say you got one heck of a deal right there.  And look at the money you saved by going to a convention, booking a hotel room, standing in line for 4 hrs----$154 in and out the door?  WITH shipping?  A steal all day long.  Or was that $154 on top of the Stan Lee signature fee?   What was the final grade on your book? 

Edited by Rich_Henn

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To me there's a bit of an unusual gray area.

 You have the "fans" who just want to collect how they want to collect. I don't collect slabs per se, but I do own some and have subbed a few for my own collection.

Then you have the people who do this to make money, either as a full time gig or as a side hussle for fun and profit.

Then there's the odd duck who is both, a fan / collector and also a dealer.

I sincerely do feel for fans who just really enjoy having slabbed books in their collection as they're being made to pay extra for the (mis) perception that the creator has of slabbing comic books.

I don't necessarily feel so bad for the people who get upset because it takes more off of their bottom line as those types of people...right or wrong...helped create the (mis) perception that creators have of the whole business of sig series books.

To me, the bottom line is they have something I want and I'm either willing to pay for it or I'm not.

I have to make the decision for myself if it would all be worth it 2c

Edited by Logan510

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8 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

To me there's a bit of an unusual gray area.

 You have the "fans" who just want to collect how they want to collect. I don't collect slabs per se, but I do own some and have subbed a few for my own collection.

Then you have the people who do this to make money, either as a full time gig or has a side hussle for fun and profit.

Then there's the odd duck who is both, a fan / collector and also a dealer.

I sincerely do feel for fans who just really enjoy having slabbed books in their collection as they're being made to pay extra for the (mis) perception that the creator has of slabbing comic books.

I don't necessarily feel so bad for the people who get upset because it takes more off of their bottom line as those types of people...right or wrong...helped create the (mis) perception that creators have of the whole business of sig series books.

To me, the bottom line is they have something I want and I'm either willing to pay for it or I'm not.

I have to make the decision for myself if it would all be worth it 2c

I can sure understand the glazed look in eyes thing mentioned above!!  lol

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20 hours ago, Logan510 said:

I don't necessarily feel so bad for the people who get upset because it takes more off of their bottom line as those types of people...right or wrong...helped create the (mis) perception that creators have of the whole business of sig series books.

This is a mischaracterization of the situation in two ways:

1. Those doing Sig Series had nothing to do to "help create" the perception of creators. They got in, they got their books signed, and they got out. The people who created the misperception that creators have are the facilitators who, in the (mostly successful) attempt to corner the market, told creators things that weren't true, like "people doing Sig Series are making money off of you, and you need a piece of that...and *I* can help you get it!", acting in their own interests, and creating the problem you have today, with "tiered" pricing based on information that is no one's business but the owner of the copy being signed.

2. No one is upset because it "takes more off of their bottom line." That isn't the issue, has never been the issue, and still isn't the issue. The issue is charging a higher price for the very same service, the very same effort, based on the misperception in #1. 

If Creator X wants to charge $1,000 for his signature...he/she is perfectly free to do that, and everyone is free to decide if that is worth it to them. The issue comes when Creator X...or his proxies in the form of monopolistic "facilitators"...demand to know what people intend to do with their property, and then charge a different, higher price depending on the answer.

That is the heart of the issue, and always has been. Repeated, persistent attempts to make it seem as if the issue is merely about the price aren't going to change that fact.

Edited by RockMyAmadeus

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I know for a fact people have not gotten creator A to sign their books for sig series because they charged "too much" and therefore it would not be "cost effective". I've seen this in person and have friends who have told me this.

To say it's not an issue and has never been an issue is disingenuous.

If facilitators are creating the wrong perception bad on them, but creators have the internet and access to eBay too. I've personally spoken to creators who have mentioned they see how much the asking prices are for sig series books on eBay.

 

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10 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

I know for a fact people have not gotten creator A to sign their books for sig series because they charged "too much" and therefore it would not be "cost effective". I've seen this in person and have friends who have told me this.

To say it's not an issue and has never been an issue is disingenuous.

 

21 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

If Creator X wants to charge $1,000 for his signature...he/she is perfectly free to do that, and everyone is free to decide if that is worth it to them.

(emphasis added)

Nobody said it's not AN issue. It is. It's not, however, THE issue being discussed here. To try and subtly change the parameters of the discussion by engaging in wordplay is disingenuous.

Edited by RockMyAmadeus

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8 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

If facilitators are creating the wrong perception bad on them, but creators have the internet and access to eBay too. I've personally spoken to creators who have mentioned they see how much the asking prices are for sig series books on eBay.

And I'm sure you explained to them the difference between "asking" price and "selling price", no....?

And the difference between a 9.8 and an 8.5, and the effect that difference has on the value of signatures, no....?

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All of which, of course, ignores the reality that commerce happens when people price their goods and/or services in a manner commensurate with demand. 

When Creator X sits at a table all day, because he/she is charging more for his/her signature than the market is willing to support, that doesn't help anyone. 

Economy works when everything moves, and balance occurs naturally between supply and demand, without artificial intervention by those who want to rig the system in their favor. 

If I want to get 20 books signed by Creator X, but he/she charges more than I'm willing to pay, he/she gets no money for their service, and I get nothing as well. Much better to charge a price that is supported by the market, and get cash flowing. 

Again....if the argument is "it's their signature, they can charge whatever they want for it, and if people don't like it, they're free to not pay it", I'm with that, 100%, and support that completely. It's THEIR sig, and if they want to charge $10,000 for it...hey, more power to them. You'll never see me saying they shouldn't be able to do that.

But that's not the argument.

The argument is "if Creator X is willing to sign for $Y for one person, but refuses to sign for less than $Y+$Z for another person, then they are creating a discriminatory situation, based on a scenario most of them don't even understand, because they've been told lies by the self-interested", and that's where there's a massive glitch in the Matrix.

Stan's a great example of the former. He always charged the same price, regardless of where it was going, and the demand for his signature was insatiable. He never had a "tiered" system, and though the cost was high, the market was clearly, obviously, beyond question willing to support it. Good for him.

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What I've learned in this thread.

Some creators charge the right amount for their signature and some charge too much.

Some creators charge tiered prices based on a misperception.

In conclusion, creators can do whatever they want with their signature.

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2 hours ago, Logan510 said:

In conclusion, creators can do whatever they want with their signature.

Not in dispute.

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It's really not that difficult to understand...

In Bangkok, all of the go-go bars are free to enter. Always been free to enter. But over the last year or two, they’ve started to stop Indians* at the door and tell them it’s 100 baht to come in (that’s roughly $3 US). As far as I can tell, and anyone I’ve spoken to about this or read about it, they are the ONLY people that the bars are doing this to. It’s certainly never happened to me. It’s based upon a misconception that Thai’s have, that ALL Indians are ‘Cheap Charlies’ (as they say). In actuality, there are a LOT of people who go in those bars and don’t spend money, but Indians are being singled out.

Does the bar have the right to charge admission? Yep. Not in question here.

Does the bar have the right to charge any price they want to come in? Yep. Not in question here.

Does the patron have the right to not pay it and go somewhere else? Yep. Not in question here.

ARE the Indians ‘Cheap Charlies’? Some are and some aren’t, the same as pretty much any race of people.

Does the bar have the right to discriminate based upon their misconceptions about Indian people? Well, that’s where the grey area comes in.

THAT is the angle that’s being discussed.

 

 

(*Not to confuse those Americans burdened with a less comprehensive educational system - when I say Indian, I mean someone from the country of India. It’s on the other side of the globe (round spherical planet) that we live on - nestled in between Pakistan and China.)

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The analogy is based on a racist misperception, so I'm not sure it holds up under scrutiny.

But I get the point, I just don't agree with it. I fully understand how people can feel they're being segregated by the tired pricing.

If it were me, I wouldn't do it. But I wouldn't tell any of my colleagues they couldn't.

 

Edited by Logan510

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15 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Stan's a great example of the former. He always charged the same price, regardless of where it was going, and the demand for his signature was insatiable. He never had a "tiered" system, and though the cost was high, the market was clearly, obviously, beyond question willing to support it. Good for him.

This is not technically true.  It may have been true for public signings (i.e. people standing in the line), but not for private signings

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