Silver age Pence vs Cent
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4 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

You're pulling my leg aren't you :grin:

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/blogs/blog/628-john-morlars-pence-palace-of-doom-and-other-comic-miscellany/

That's nice. Not my area of expertise, but I do like to see a foreign reprint book. Some of the covers are fantastic. 

Thanks. I myself am no expert on these but am learning more about them as I go. They're not really "reprints" as such, as I believe them to be the first Spanish printing for the Mexican market (I could be wrong about that, but I don't think that I am). There ARE many other LATER printings in the 70s, but these are the earliest Mexican Editions that I have seen, these La Prensa copies. These are starting to heat up price-wise as well. Just a lot more fun for me (and others, apparently). 

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1 minute ago, Frisco Larson said:

Thanks. I myself am no expert on these but am learning more about them as I go. They're not really "reprints" as such, as I believe them to be the first Spanish printing for the Mexican market (I could be wrong about that, but I don't think that I am). There ARE many other LATER printings in the 70s, but these are the earliest Mexican Editions that I have seen, these La Prensa copies. These are starting to heat up price-wise as well. Just a lot more fun for me (and others, apparently). 

By that I meant that, whilst being their countries first local publication, they reprint original US material in repackaged country specific titles. Not to be confused, as they often are, with genuine US produced price variants for distribution in the UK, Canada and Australia (being the only documented ones we know of). I helped get CGC to note price variants as such on their labels to distinguish them correctly (see my Marvel UK Price Variant thread). They still label the local reprints incorrectly as, for example, 'UK Edition(s)' but you can't have everything can you. 

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5 hours ago, Frisco Larson said:

I collect a LOT of comics that most others don't, like issues from other countries for example. I personally LIKE the idea of the pence copies being available and actually would like to have a matching pence and cents copy in my collection, or at least where it's feasible to do so. I think they'll probably always be less valuable than the cents copies, as there is a tremendous herd mentality in comic collecting and I believe it would take quite a swing in popular opinion to make a significant change in the market. If I had to guess, I would say the main reason that they sell for less is that when it comes to larger sums of money, people are much more cautious and likely don't trust that there is enough of an established sales history for them to "gamble" on a foreign copy over an American one with a much larger proven sales history, but that's just a guess. If you're talking about a hundred or two, most collectors wouldn't be very concerned, but when it's multiple thousands, then then would likely question a purchase much more before making a decision. My 2c. 

Agree on the "herd mentality ".  I think the only way that changes is slowly over time as new generations continue to come into collecting. It's much less likely that an older collector who has seen this as an established norm is going to swing the other way. Just human nature. 

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58 minutes ago, serling1978 said:

Agree on the "herd mentality ".  I think the only way that changes is slowly over time as new generations continue to come into collecting. It's much less likely that an older collector who has seen this as an established norm is going to swing the other way. Just human nature. 

Agreed. New eyes tend to be more open to seeing several angles of the same picture. Many will follow the established norm, but many will also choose their own path. 

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4 hours ago, serling1978 said:

Agree on the "herd mentality ".  I think the only way that changes is slowly over time as new generations continue to come into collecting. It's much less likely that an older collector who has seen this as an established norm is going to swing the other way. Just human nature. 

Hmmm I disagree with the 'herd mentality' theory. I also don't think it's due to the ignorance of collectors. I think many collectors feel the way I feel about them. I understand they came off the same run; Pence copies are not reprints. I understand they are more rare. Sorry, don't care. The cent versions are just more attractive to me; I like them better. That's not to say that Pence copies aren't cool or neat. I just like their 'cent' counterparts better.

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2 hours ago, bb8 said:

Hmmm I disagree with the 'herd mentality' theory. I also don't think it's due to the ignorance of collectors. I think many collectors feel the way I feel about them. I understand they came off the same run; Pence copies are not reprints. I understand they are more rare. Sorry, don't care. The cent versions are just more attractive to me; I like them better. That's not to say that Pence copies aren't cool or neat. I just like their 'cent' counterparts better.

Nothing wrong with that. You like what you like. The only additional comment I'd make is that if you love comics, the medium, and you get a thrill, say, holding an old cents Marvel - the look, touch, smell, visuals - I find it hard to understand how some cents purists lose that love just because of a different cover price. 

Hold one in your hands, and to me, it's damn exciting, just as holding a cents copy is.

I have a friend who dismissed Mark Jewelers copies as frivolous. Wouldn't touch them. Then he held a high grade Spidey, felt that firm thicker body, opened it up and was hooked. Because he loved the medium.

All these books are just variations on a thing we love. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Nothing wrong with that. You like what you like. The only additional comment I'd make is that if you love comics, the medium, and you get a thrill, say, holding an old cents Marvel - the look, touch, smell, visuals - I find it hard to understand how some cents purists lose that love just because of a different cover price. 

Hold one in your hands, and to me, it's damn exciting, just as holding a cents copy is.

I have a friend who dismissed Mark Jewelers copies as frivolous. Wouldn't touch them. Then he held a high grade Spidey, felt that firm thicker body, opened it up and was hooked. Because he loved the medium.

All these books are just variations on a thing we love. 

 

Yeah for sure. I never said they're not cool. They definitely are. To me it seems like price variation collectors are niche. There are probably people that seek out pence copies over cent copies. Just like there are people who seek out Canadian price variants. It just seems like those seeking out pence copies are unwilling to pay a premium for them like other price variants. If they were, when they came to market at auction they would go for more money.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, bb8 said:

Yeah for sure. I never said they're not cool. They definitely are. To me it seems like price variation collectors are niche. There are probably people that seek out pence copies over cent copies. Just like there are people who seek out Canadian price variants. It just seems like those seeking out pence copies are unwilling to pay a premium for them like other price variants. If they were, when they came to market at auction they would go for more money.

Indeed. I'm a firm believer that you can't, or shouldn't seek to manufacture value or desirability. It's either there or it isn't. But you can find new things, and avenues of interest which may affect those values and levels of desirability over time. I've always been focused on what exists myself rather than value. I like to document and research them and if others discover that work and come to appreciate them more then that's a happy byproduct in my book. 

Edited by Get Marwood & I
Exit stage left....

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24 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Indeed. I'm a firm believer that you can't, or shouldn't seek to manufacture value or desirability. It's either there or it isn't. But you can find new things, and avenues of interest which may affect those values and levels of desirability over time. I've always been focused on what exits myself rather than value. I like to document and research them and if others discover that work and come to appreciate them more then that's a happy byproduct in my book. 

Do you mean 'excites'? As I think we all know there 'aint a market for what exits you.

Being English I suppose it's natural that pence copies or rather £sd (pre-decimal) copies don't bother me. Weirdly, post-decimal copies do bother me, I think it's the font (or the P) and whilst I'll buy them if I don't have the book already, it's one I'm looking to change for a cent copy asap.

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2 hours ago, Harry Lime said:
3 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Indeed. I'm a firm believer that you can't, or shouldn't seek to manufacture value or desirability. It's either there or it isn't. But you can find new things, and avenues of interest which may affect those values and levels of desirability over time. I've always been focused on what exits myself rather than value. I like to document and research them and if others discover that work and come to appreciate them more then that's a happy byproduct in my book. 

Do you mean 'excites'? As I think we all know there 'aint a market for what exits you.

Being English I suppose it's natural that pence copies or rather £sd (pre-decimal) copies don't bother me. Weirdly, post-decimal copies do bother me, I think it's the font (or the P) and whilst I'll buy them if I don't have the book already, it's one I'm looking to change for a cent copy asap.

Exists, not exits, sorry!

I was typing in the queue for the Post Office. Never a good idea with my eyesight :grin:

But they do excite as well I have to say. I mean, look at this:

756097750_Battle709dTP-CJun60.thumb.jpg.11dc908337ae3a6a565f11f878ea7bd6.jpg 1379113413_Battle709dTP-IJun60.thumb.jpg.68c703e293b82b4cef206a4a53f597a9.jpg

If you love comics, how can you not drool....

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I used to have the same negative view as many others of pence books until about 10 or so years ago when i learned more about them (one great source was these boards!) and after I had the whole picture, the negative view of pence books disappeared.  Personally I've never sought out or tried to specifically collect Pence copies.  I'm not a pence collector, I'm a collector of comics that I love.  If an opportunity comes up and it's a pence copy, then cool. I don't understand the point of view that the cents price makes the book more attractive.  For early Silver Age books like Hulk, X-Men, Avengers, FF, etc, with amazing Kirby art, bright colors, great characters, exciting cover text to tease the story and all that, "12c" on the cover is about #101 on the list of 100 important things.  Personally i have no fondness for the number 12 over the number 9.................... (silver age cents vs pence)  or for a month on a cover vs no month.

I don't think the continued idea that pence books are less desirable is due to a current lack of understanding, i think it's more of a long ago initial lack of understanding that has perpetuated and seeped into the collecting world as an accepted norm. 

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I'm currently working on a complete X-Men pence run, and I really have to give a shout out to @Get Marwood & I for his work on compiling tons of pence copies and all of his research.  So, thank you.  Moving along, I ended up with a pence copy of a Daredevil #163 a couple years ago and thought it was kind of neat.  I actively go out of my way to find pence copies first for any books I'm looking for.  If it does, I'll hop on it.  I dig them, and will buy them if the condition is reasonable.  I have several Hulk, Iron Man, Daredevil and Fantastic Four pence copies but working on X-Men is my pence focus right now.  For me, it was something different to look at after I completed my full run of X-Men.  I have two 35 cent variants to track down as well.  I know quite a few collectors who won't touch pence books for whatever reason, and others who have no problem because they can be a little less expensive even when factoring in shipping from the UK.  

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20 minutes ago, mec3437 said:

I'm currently working on a complete X-Men pence run, and I really have to give a shout out to @Get Marwood & I for his work on compiling tons of pence copies and all of his research.  So, thank you.  Moving along, I ended up with a pence copy of a Daredevil #163 a couple years ago and thought it was kind of neat.  I actively go out of my way to find pence copies first for any books I'm looking for.  If it does, I'll hop on it.  I dig them, and will buy them if the condition is reasonable.  I have several Hulk, Iron Man, Daredevil and Fantastic Four pence copies but working on X-Men is my pence focus right now.  For me, it was something different to look at after I completed my full run of X-Men.  I have two 35 cent variants to track down as well.  I know quite a few collectors who won't touch pence books for whatever reason, and others who have no problem because they can be a little less expensive even when factoring in shipping from the UK.  

That's pretty cool due to the scarceness of a run like that. I can't imagine that many complete pence runs of a series like X-Men exist out in the collecting world.  I'm a huge collector of runs and have #1-#400 or so for a lot of the major series (ASM, X-Men, Hulk) and complete runs of smaller series like Defenders, Nova, Master of Kung Fu, Tomb of Dracula, What If, Marvel Team Up, etc etc etc, but i don't think I have the patience to seek out any all pence runs :bigsmile: .  So more props to you! ^^

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1 hour ago, serling1978 said:

That's pretty cool due to the scarceness of a run like that. I can't imagine that many complete pence runs of a series like X-Men exist out in the collecting world.  I'm a huge collector of runs and have #1-#400 or so for a lot of the major series (ASM, X-Men, Hulk) and complete runs of smaller series like Defenders, Nova, Master of Kung Fu, Tomb of Dracula, What If, Marvel Team Up, etc etc etc, but i don't think I have the patience to seek out any all pence runs :bigsmile: .  So more props to you! ^^

Thanks!  It's a chore.  As far as X-Men goes, I have #96-152 minus the gaps due to there not being pence issues.  I have a sprinkling of issues before #96 with the earliest pence in my run being #13.  I'm sort of saving for a lower grade #1 but realistically, I'l be buying another GSX #1 to fill that hole.  I have some smaller series, but not many.  More of a Copper Age Marvel mini series collector too.  So, in addition to my X-Men pence run, I'm working on a Canadian newsstand run of Uncanny X-Men, Punisher limited series, with Transformers and X-Factor about to be added to that list as well.  I'm halfway through the UXM portion, but I guess I've taken a shine to some of the price variants that were still first prints for the UK and Canadian markets.  It's always nice to see fellow run collectors.  It seems like the keys have been all the rage last 13 years or so ever since the whole MCU thing came about.  

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3 minutes ago, mec3437 said:

  It's always nice to see fellow run collectors.  It seems like the keys have been all the rage last 13 years or so ever since the whole MCU thing came about.  

Amen!! "Grails" or keys are awesome due to their inherent significance and an important part of any collection, but i don't think they should be the only thing that matters.  Completeness is what drives me to collect, because the feeling of satisfaction of having no holes in a run, and also because (brace yourselves :bigsmile:) I read my comics and I don't want to miss part of the ongoing story

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, serling1978 said:

Amen!! "Grails" or keys are awesome due to their inherent significance and an important part of any collection, but i don't think they should be the only thing that matters.  Completeness is what drives me to collect, because the feeling of satisfaction of having no holes in a run, and also because (brace yourselves :bigsmile:) I read my comics and I don't want to miss part of the ongoing story

Totally agree, I have full runs of all Silver- Modern age titles, I dont have a clue how many are Pence or how many are cents though, I dont care either :) 

Edited by Kevin.J

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13 minutes ago, Kevin.J said:

Totally agree, I have full runs of all Silver- Modern age titles, I dont have a clue how many are Pence or how many are cents though, I dont care either :) 

Damn. Sounds like you have some serious runs (no poop joke intended (:).  Is there a separate thread about runs? I'd like to get in on that......

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Frisco Larson said:
19 hours ago, serling1978 said:

Agree on the "herd mentality ".  I think the only way that changes is slowly over time as new generations continue to come into collecting. It's much less likely that an older collector who has seen this as an established norm is going to swing the other way. Just human nature. 

Agreed. New eyes tend to be more open to seeing several angles of the same picture. Many will follow the established norm, but many will also choose their own path. 

The market is heavily driven by math, even if collectors themselves aren't math lovers (or don't want to believe it comes down to math). :grin:

Here's what I mean:

There are 1,800 CGC graded copies of Incredible Hulk #1 (1962) and let's say that 99% of buyers prefer the "cents" edition to the "pence".  There's a long-term well-established market for both types where the "pence" copies are significantly cheaper than "cents".

The same CGC census shows 97.5% of the graded copies are "cents" and 2.5% are "pence"... and since 99% of our hypothetical buyers prefer "cents", there is more demand (99%) than supply (97.5%) for cents copies... but what would it take for that to change?

Do more than half of collectors need to switch (change their thinking) to preferring "pence" to make them worth more than cents copies?

I don't think so. 

I think if just 3% of these hypothetical collectors decided they'd like a "pence" copy, instead of the hypothetical 1%, the prices could flip.  After all, there are only 2.5% pence copies and 3% demand would be "too little supply" for pence.  Meanwhile, 97.5% cents copies with 97% of the demand would be "too much supply" for cents.

hm

Edited by valiantman

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