Art Prices 3 3

[Rick2you2]

7 hours ago, LonelyPost said:

2008 may not be a good starting point as this is when credit became relatively easier to obtain due to the quantitative easing measures taken by central banks. Record low interest rates helped push up prices. Production prices in China have also increased as quality of life improved resulting in higher prices asked for new pieces (statues and toys)

Quantitative easing? I do believe I detect another WSJ reader (or at least Barrons).

[Rick2you2]

3 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I don't mean to be confrontational, or anything. I'm sure the person who owns that ASM #100 cover loves it, and has no regrets. I'm just stating my opinion as someone who has zero nostalgia for that art, and looks at it objectively. Obviously, I could be proven wrong. But, this is my humble opinion.

One of the interesting things I have noticed about critiques involving OA, in general, is that there really isn't any evaluation on technical grounds--we "go with our gut." For example, how is the composition of the elements of a piece? Is it centered? Is it original? Do objects blend well? Are the figures anatomically correct, if that is the artist's style, or stylistically exaggerated in order to make a particular point? Things like that, besides raw emotional impact. 

The comment I quoted is the reason I bring this up. Is it fair to compare the artistic work in ASM #100 with another piece if price is driven by nostalgia? Or, what about the significance of it being ASM #100?

"Going with your gut" is critical to any piece, but maybe if there were generally agreed things we look at, it might be better at sorting out the good stuff from the great stuff.

[AnkurJ]

Some great points about the market until the Romita debate broke out.

[otherworldsj331]

The A+ pieces will continue to escalate in price. Maybe not steadily, but over time, even as older collectors die off. The appeal of the A+ art is more then nostalgic.

I will admit though, the prices of some comics (like 7.0-ish grade Amazing Fantasy 15's) and some art, like the crazy prices some C+/B material gets, scares me. Looking at those items purely from a investment standpoint, it's really got to be f-///--u money. I could think of at least a few places I would feel better and more secure parking my money at then in some of that type of material.

I am still amazed with the advent and prevalence of pressing that a comic that was worth lets say 50k one day could sell for 150k the next. Just insane, if you ask me.

[jjonahjameson11]

2 hours ago, Bronty said:

Yeah, and Romita's more of a romance artist.   See what I did there?

And I'm not just being a smartazz, it also happens to be true.

Yes, and that's perfectly fine with me because a good amount of issues during Romita's run focused on MJ-Peter-Gwen love triangle (a la Archie-Betty-Veronica), so you could say that John came along at the right time to really make those issues click with readers, as evidenced by Spidey's print run exceeding the FF's print run during John's tenure. 

[MarvelComicsArt]

3 hours ago, Bronty said:

Yeah, and Romita's more of a romance artist.   See what I did there?

And I'm not just being a smartazz, it also happens to be true.

The Amazing Spiderman has always been a soap opera played out on newsprint, so in my eyes there was no one better to add to this type of story telling than John Romta !

Great point Bronty!   

John Romita is an amazing artist , working on an amazing title... you see what i did there! wink

AMAZING SPIDERMAN = ROMANCE COMIC WITH GREAT CHOREOGRAPHED ACTION SEQUENCES !

Isn't that what most silver age comics were ? Soap operas of their respective time.

[williamhlawson]

1 hour ago, MarvelComicsArt said:

Isn't that what most silver age comics were ? Soap operas of their respective time.

My wife said that in slightly different terms this week, when I complained about the drivel that is 'The Young and the Restless'.   Sigh.  She has a point doesn't she? 

 

[Bronty]

 I swear if he had drawn in stick figures you guys would be telling me how stick figures were the perfect method of artistic expression for the title

Edited March 20, 2018 by Bronty

[Rick2you2]

1 hour ago, Bronty said:

 I swear if he had drawn in stick figures you guys would be telling me how stick figures were the perfect method of artistic expression for the title

Not for the women, it isn't. 

You can tell those panels are old. MJ looks like she's only a B cup.

[JadeGiant]

18 hours ago, vodou said:

All I'm really trying to say, which is just repeating Bronty actually, is that the demand (and thus prices) are due to the character/title combination and then the relative ranking inside that by artistic run. This is proven constantly by all the non-whatever art by these artists. Sure it sells and it sells for more than nothing, but the heat is on the title and character not the artist.

Who's paying Trimpe Hulk prices for comparable anything Trimpe non-Hulk? Nobody. Romita ASM prices for anything Romita non-ASM? Nobody. Etc etc.

I get your point. I agree that the character and title make a big part on demand but I think the contribution made by the artists (writer and illustrator) are a MUCH bigger contributors than I perceive you to believe. When you have a great artistic team on a staple character, they can bring the title itself to new heights. I don’t buy into the notion that any artists on ASM would yield the same results. Replace Ditko and Romita  with Heck and Gene Colan (not a slam on either as I appreciate them as artists as well) and the quality of the title would not have been the same. Comics are a visual medium – the artists play a huge role in the popularity and demand. Regarding Romita … there is a reason that Stan wanted him on ASM as he helped to create the Marvel brand while he was drawing ASM. He was touching up a ton of work to give the look that Stan/Marvel wanted and it was his look that was ALL OVER Marvel marketing and advertising during this period. Stan knew how important Romita’s look was to Marvel and their flagship title and is why Romita was the man for the job for such a long time. IMHO, you can’t overestimate the Romita impact on Marvel comics during this period and even today.

[RICKYBOBBY]

18 hours ago, vodou said:

All I'm really trying to say, which is just repeating Bronty actually, is that the demand (and thus prices) are due to the character/title combination and then the relative ranking inside that by artistic run. This is proven constantly by all the non-whatever art by these artists. Sure it sells and it sells for more than nothing, but the heat is on the title and character not the artist.

Who's paying Trimpe Hulk prices for comparable anything Trimpe non-Hulk? Nobody. Romita ASM prices for anything Romita non-ASM? Nobody. Etc etc.

Not true. Romita could draw any cover with any popular Marvel characters and it will sell for as much as as ASM stuff.

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/john-romita-sr-defenders-10-cover-thor-vs-hulk-original-art-and-cover-proof-marvel-1973-/a/7137-92258.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

And Avengers covers and Thor covers.

Any splashes or covers Romita did for FF would go for huge money too.

So to say Romita is ASM only is jokes. He just happen to spend a lot of time there.

There was a reason they would bring in Romita just to do faces. His style of drawing was one of the best looking in the comic art business.

Edited March 20, 2018 by RICKYBOBBY

[Bronty]

58 minutes ago, RICKYBOBBY said:

Not true. Romita could draw any cover with any popular Marvel characters and it will sell for as much as as ASM stuff.

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/john-romita-sr-defenders-10-cover-thor-vs-hulk-original-art-and-cover-proof-marvel-1973-/a/7137-92258.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

And Avengers covers and Thor covers.

Any splashes or covers Romita did for FF would go for huge money too.

So to say Romita is ASM only is jokes. He just happen to spend a lot of time there.

There was a reason they would bring in Romita just to do faces. His style of drawing was one of the best looking in the comic art business.

Please show me a NON ASM Romita cover that would sell for 478,000 dollars.  

[Bronty]

Again, no one is saying he wasn’t a capable artist.    But take Gil Kane off of SA Green Lantern and replace him with John Romita.     Does anything really change?   Heck no.   Same goes with replacing Romita on ASM with a relatively good artist - the example I used earlier was Heath.   

Of course the artists brought a lot to the stories and of course each artist brought their unique strengths.     

But at the end of the day Archie comics still sold whether it was Lucey, de Carlo, Bolling, whatever.    They were all capable but somewhat interchangeable because the reader just wanted to know whose plan to get Archie was going to work - Betty’s?   Or Veronica’s?  And who Spidey was going to tangle with - Doc Ock , or the Vulture?    Those of you that preferred the soap opera elements notwithstanding I suppose.

Don Rosa, who most would call the second best duck artist/writer ever, once described to me his inability to move the sales needle in these terms:    In Europe duck books sold great no matter who drew them and in the US they didn’t sell at all no matter who drew them.     So, someone with all that skill and hard work couldn’t make sell extra books.     Late 60s early 70s marvel was going to sell no matter who, within reason, drew the books.    With all due respect to Trimpe most would view him as way down the list of Marvel artists but Hulk did not get cancelled in the 70s.     Despite, ironically, being cancelled in the early 60s with Kirby at the helm

Edited March 20, 2018 by Bronty

[RICKYBOBBY]

44 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Please show me a NON ASM Romita cover that would sell for 478,000 dollars.  

That's a top cover from Romita's ASM run. However, I can show you other Romita ASM covers that have sold for less than his non ASM covers.

Edited March 20, 2018 by RICKYBOBBY

[Bronty]

13 minutes ago, RICKYBOBBY said:

That's a top cover from Romita's ASM run. However, I can show you other Romita ASM covers that have sold for less than his non ASM covers.

Great.   Please show me the Romita ASM cover that has sold for less than one of his romance covers.

You're deliberately missing the point.    All the other stuff you want to show me is all varying shades of marvel fanboy.   (slightly 'off ASM' brand but not too much). 

You really think virtually ANY of his stuff would be worth more than the odd four figure amount if he hadn't worked on ASM and or marvel in general?    If he had done... oh... Charlton war comics, do you think we are having this conversation?    Do you think that a Romita Charlton war cover is getting more than whatever negligible sum those already go for?

How do you explain that 1k Ditko splash page from JIM 83?   that he suddenly turned into a terrible artist?    The market in general barely cares how well its drawn (Liefeld art is hot right now?).    Actual draftsmanship skill is way down the list. 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Bronty

[RICKYBOBBY]

34 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Again, no one is saying he wasn’t a capable artist.    But take Gil Kane off of SA Green Lantern and replace him with John Romita.     Does anything really change?   Heck no.   Same goes with replacing Romita on ASM with a relatively good artist - the example I used earlier was Heath.   

Of course the artists brought a lot to the stories and of course each artist brought their unique strengths.     

But at the end of the day Archie comics still sold whether it was Lucey, de Carlo, Bolling, whatever.    They were all capable but somewhat interchangeable because the reader just wanted to know whose plan to get Archie was going to work - Betty’s?   Or Veronica’s?  And who Spidey was going to tangle with - Doc Ock , or the Vulture?    Those of you that preferred the soap opera elements notwithstanding I suppose.

Don Rosa, who most would call the second best duck artist/writer ever, once described to me his inability to move the sales needle in these terms:    In Europe duck books sold great no matter who drew them and in the US they didn’t sell at all no matter who drew them.     So, someone with all that skill and hard work couldn’t make sell extra books.     Late 60s early 70s marvel was going to sell no matter who, within reason, drew the books.    With all due respect to Trimpe most would view him as way down the list of Marvel artists but Hulk did not get cancelled in the 70s.     Despite, ironically, being cancelled in the early 60s with Kirby at the helm

Don't agree. Romita redefined Spider-Man and made him more acceptable to a wider audience, hence increasing sales. Saying you could have brought in anyone to do this is silly.

With no Romita we have no Kingpin ( with no Kingpin what happens to Millers run on DD?) no Punisher and a whole wack of other characters. He designed the Wolverine as well.

Are we saying all of that could have been easily done by, Heath? Nope. He's a good artist but don't think the vision would have been there

There is a reason he was art director at Marvel for almost a decade.

[RICKYBOBBY]

2 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Great.   Please show me the Romita ASM cover that has sold for less than one of his romance covers.

You're deliberately missing the point.    All the other stuff you want to show me is all varying shades of marvel fanboy.   (slightly 'off ASM' brand but not too much). 

You really think virtually ANY of his stuff would be worth more than the odd four figure amount if he hadn't worked on ASM and or marvel in general?    If he had done... oh... Charlton war comics, do you think we are having this conversation?    Do you think that a Romita Charlton war cover is getting more than whatever negligible sum those already go for?

Why compare romance? Take anything else Marvel. Like that Defenders cover.

If he didn't work on ASM or any other Marvel stuff yeah then yeah his stuff wouldn't sell for much.

But we are acting like he was just handed the job. He EARNED it with his vision and high artistic skills.

[Bronty]

2 minutes ago, RICKYBOBBY said:

 

There is a reason he was art director at Marvel for almost a decade.

And you don't think part of that reason is personality rather than draftsmanship skill?    When you hire a foreman like he was, what do you look for?    The right mental makeup most of all.

[Bronty]

7 minutes ago, RICKYBOBBY said:

Why compare romance? Take anything else Marvel. Like that Defenders cover.

If he didn't work on ASM or any other Marvel stuff yeah then yeah his stuff wouldn't sell for much.

But we are acting like he was just handed the job. He EARNED it with his vision and high artistic skills.

That defenders cover is about Thor fighting the Hulk.   An early hero v hero cover.    NOT about Romita.    I mean come on.     Whether Gil Kane, John Buscema, or John Romita drew that doesn't friggin matter.

As much I like the FF112 Thing v Hulk cover, if Romita or Kane had drawn that instead of Buscema, whatever.    Same difference if similar quality.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Bronty

[RICKYBOBBY]

7 minutes ago, Bronty said:

And you don't think part of that reason is personality rather than draftsmanship skill?    When you hire a foreman like he was, what do you look for?    The right mental makeup most of all.

Both. Here is an example of his draftsmanship skill..

"Stan Lee showed me  Ayers' splash page for a Daredevil and asked me, 'What would you do with this page?' I showed him on a tracing paper what I would do, and then he asked me to do a drawing of Daredevil the way I would do it. I did a big drawing of Daredevil ... just a big, tracing-paper drawing of Daredevil swinging. And Stan loved it."

So not just personality. His layout skills were impeccable and just outright better then anyone around at that time.

 

Edited March 20, 2018 by RICKYBOBBY