How CGC and grading companies revolutionized the comic book hobby. 0

[Jaxxon]

3 hours ago, Phantalien said:

I agree.   If there is a standard for grading then there should be guidelines and criteria to follow.  They should be known for the whole hobby to use and enjoy but also have a reigning body who would be known as professionals who can professionally grade based on those guideline.   

 

While I think the seller should have responded better it seems like you were expecting a book that would come back as a certain grade if you were to send it in.  So why not just get the book in the grade you wanted?   IF you do not want to go that route, then you won an auction using everything you know from description, images, and everything in between.   You agreed to bid and willing to buy it for the price you were offering and you won.   I don't think that the seller did anything wrong and was not stealing from you.   

Just the fact that the seller said, "SPECTACULAR NEAR MINT CONDITION FROM MY PERSONAL COLLECTION." automatically makes me think it was not in NM condition.    There has never been a spectacular near mint from a grading service, nor would I have ever found it looking in Overstreet or *gulp dare I mention it* Wizard magazine.

Take it as a lesson, maybe next time ask more questions or get more pictures.   

Excellent post. I agree with everything you said.

To me this example is more about learning how to buy comics online instead of the importance of graded books.

If you bid and buy based on tiny blurry pictures (and you can even see the rounded corners and the dirty back cover in them) then you shouldn't complain or put the seller on blast. Ask questions and get more pictures.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-COMICS-THE-ATOM-17-SILVER-AGE-1965-NM-/362246425894?hash=item545791cd26%3Ag%3AQCoAAOSwNDJai2BW&nma=true&si=znMbMGD5zKV5cq%2FDn%2BkwoXkfWtA%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[LordRahl]

3 hours ago, Phantalien said:

I agree.   If there is a standard for grading then there should be guidelines and criteria to follow.  They should be known for the whole hobby to use and enjoy but also have a reigning body who would be known as professionals who can professionally grade based on those guideline.   

 

While I think the seller should have responded better it seems like you were expecting a book that would come back as a certain grade if you were to send it in.  So why not just get the book in the grade you wanted?   IF you do not want to go that route, then you won an auction using everything you know from description, images, and everything in between.   You agreed to bid and willing to buy it for the price you were offering and you won.   I don't think that the seller did anything wrong and was not stealing from you.   

Just the fact that the seller said, "SPECTACULAR NEAR MINT CONDITION FROM MY PERSONAL COLLECTION." automatically makes me think it was not in NM condition.    There has never been a spectacular near mint from a grading service, nor would I have ever found it looking in Overstreet or *gulp dare I mention it* Wizard magazine.

Take it as a lesson, maybe next time ask more questions or get more pictures.   

This is a complete cop out. RMA bought a NM book. It was not that he was hoping to get a certain grade so he should have bought it already graded. Again, he bought what was advertised as a NM book. What he should have gotten is a NM book. If it wasn't a NM book, he should return it. It is absolutely on the seller to deliver what he promised. If he doesn't know the difference between a NM and VF/NM book, he should state that and just not provide a grade. Insinuating that it's somehow the buyers responsibility to "do more research, get more pics" and whatever is just letting the seller off the hook in providing what he advertises. You are expecting the buyer to grade from pics (which is impossible to do accurately) but you don't expect the seller to grade accurately with book in hand? Ridiculous. Yes, the seller is stealing. If you don't get that, perhaps you are one of those sellers that intentionally overgrades on ebay, which is exactly what was going on here.

[LordRahl]

3 minutes ago, Jaxxon said:

Excellent post. I agree with everything you said.

To me this example is more about learning how to buy comics online instead of the importance of graded books.

If you bid and buy based on tiny blurry pictures (and you can even see the rounded corners and the dirty back cover in them) then you shouldn't complain or put the seller on blast. Ask questions and get more pictures.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-COMICS-THE-ATOM-17-SILVER-AGE-1965-NM-/362246425894?hash=item545791cd26%3Ag%3AQCoAAOSwNDJai2BW&nma=true&si=znMbMGD5zKV5cq%2FDn%2BkwoXkfWtA%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Just an absolutely ridiculous position to take. No one is saying that you should blindly bid on stuff but you and Phatalien are completely letting the seller off the hook and putting all responsibility on the buyer, which IMO is just simply ridiculous.

[LordRahl]

13 minutes ago, SteppinRazor said:

 The problem it's supposed to solve is objective measurement of condition, represented by numerical scale.

It provdes stability to the market despite not doing that by providing solutions to other problems, some of which @blazingbob posted.  The existence of 3rd party grading also sets price floors.

There is a difference between an objective opinion and objective measurement. Where did anyone ever say that 3rd party grading was an objective measurement of condition? Given that grading is a subjective exercise, you are talking about an impossibility. 3rd party grading does solve the problem of an objective opinion however.

And just how does 3rd party grading set a price floor? 

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, SteppinRazor said:

5 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

What, in your opinion, is that problem?

 The problem it's supposed to solve is objective measurement of condition, represented by numerical scale.

It provdes stability to the market despite not doing that by providing solutions to other problems, some of which @blazingbob posted.  The existence of 3rd party grading also sets price floors.

So, it's understandable why you would think that there's a problem, but that's not what third party grading is supposed to do at all. Grading is subjective. It always has been, and always will be. The purpose of third party grading...or grading by committee, as BB puts it...is that it removes the motive for the first and second party (the seller and the buyer) to overestimate or underestimate the item's condition...and thus, it's value. That ensures a measure of objectivity in the process, but the act of grading itself is not objective, because grading is subjective. What bothers one person may not be an issue for another. That's true of graders as well. The point is to come to a consensus among educated graders, whose opinions are informed.

That's why if a book is graded 8.5 one day, and 8.0 another, and 9.0 another...none of those grades is wrong. Neither are any of them right. That's because grading is subjective. There is no such thing as an "objective measurement of condition", and there never will be, even with the theoretical "computer programs" suggested by some. Those programs have to be PROGRAMMED, and such programs will be fundamentally biased about the flaws and what effect those flaws have on the grade, according to the biases of the people who programmed them.

It is inescapable, because...grading is subjective.

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, Jaxxon said:

Excellent post. I agree with everything you said.

To me this example is more about learning how to buy comics online instead of the importance of graded books.

If you bid and buy based on tiny blurry pictures (and you can even see the rounded corners and the dirty back cover in them) then you shouldn't complain or put the seller on blast. Ask questions and get more pictures.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-COMICS-THE-ATOM-17-SILVER-AGE-1965-NM-/362246425894?hash=item545791cd26%3Ag%3AQCoAAOSwNDJai2BW&nma=true&si=znMbMGD5zKV5cq%2FDn%2BkwoXkfWtA%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

If this is the takeaway you have, guy with 12 posts, then you've missed the point of the thread.

I don't need to produce my bona fides. You either accept the argument on its merits, or you don't. 

It is attitudes like this that encourage and enable people to commit "soft fraud", like overgrading. Instead of holding the seller to account, you "blame the victim", and say "it's your fault for taking the seller at his word! Why, he practically TOLD you the book was overgraded! Shame on you!"

Obviously, that's patent nonsense. 

But I do thank you for linking the listing in question. 

Remember: this thread has nothing to do with this particular transaction. It is merely an example of a far-reaching and ancient problem, and why that problem has, to a great extent, been mitigated by the existence of third party grading. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, LordRahl said:

6 hours ago, Phantalien said:

I agree.   If there is a standard for grading then there should be guidelines and criteria to follow.  They should be known for the whole hobby to use and enjoy but also have a reigning body who would be known as professionals who can professionally grade based on those guideline.   

 

While I think the seller should have responded better it seems like you were expecting a book that would come back as a certain grade if you were to send it in.  So why not just get the book in the grade you wanted?   IF you do not want to go that route, then you won an auction using everything you know from description, images, and everything in between.   You agreed to bid and willing to buy it for the price you were offering and you won.   I don't think that the seller did anything wrong and was not stealing from you.   

Just the fact that the seller said, "SPECTACULAR NEAR MINT CONDITION FROM MY PERSONAL COLLECTION." automatically makes me think it was not in NM condition.    There has never been a spectacular near mint from a grading service, nor would I have ever found it looking in Overstreet or *gulp dare I mention it* Wizard magazine.

Take it as a lesson, maybe next time ask more questions or get more pictures.   

This is a complete cop out. RMA bought a NM book. It was not that he was hoping to get a certain grade so he should have bought it already graded. Again, he bought what was advertised as a NM book. What he should have gotten is a NM book. If it wasn't a NM book, he should return it. It is absolutely on the seller to deliver what he promised. If he doesn't know the difference between a NM and VF/NM book, he should state that and just not provide a grade. Insinuating that it's somehow the buyers responsibility to "do more research, get more pics" and whatever is just letting the seller off the hook in providing what he advertises. You are expecting the buyer to grade from pics (which is impossible to do accurately) but you don't expect the seller to grade accurately with book in hand? Ridiculous. Yes, the seller is stealing. If you don't get that, perhaps you are one of those sellers that intentionally overgrades on ebay, which is exactly what was going on here.

Spot on.

[chrisco37]

24 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

3 hours ago, LordRahl said:

6 hours ago, Phantalien said:

I agree.   If there is a standard for grading then there should be guidelines and criteria to follow.  They should be known for the whole hobby to use and enjoy but also have a reigning body who would be known as professionals who can professionally grade based on those guideline.   

 

While I think the seller should have responded better it seems like you were expecting a book that would come back as a certain grade if you were to send it in.  So why not just get the book in the grade you wanted?   IF you do not want to go that route, then you won an auction using everything you know from description, images, and everything in between.   You agreed to bid and willing to buy it for the price you were offering and you won.   I don't think that the seller did anything wrong and was not stealing from you.   

Just the fact that the seller said, "SPECTACULAR NEAR MINT CONDITION FROM MY PERSONAL COLLECTION." automatically makes me think it was not in NM condition.    There has never been a spectacular near mint from a grading service, nor would I have ever found it looking in Overstreet or *gulp dare I mention it* Wizard magazine.

Take it as a lesson, maybe next time ask more questions or get more pictures.   

This is a complete cop out. RMA bought a NM book. It was not that he was hoping to get a certain grade so he should have bought it already graded. Again, he bought what was advertised as a NM book. What he should have gotten is a NM book. If it wasn't a NM book, he should return it. It is absolutely on the seller to deliver what he promised. If he doesn't know the difference between a NM and VF/NM book, he should state that and just not provide a grade. Insinuating that it's somehow the buyers responsibility to "do more research, get more pics" and whatever is just letting the seller off the hook in providing what he advertises. You are expecting the buyer to grade from pics (which is impossible to do accurately) but you don't expect the seller to grade accurately with book in hand? Ridiculous. Yes, the seller is stealing. If you don't get that, perhaps you are one of those sellers that intentionally overgrades on ebay, which is exactly what was going on here.

Spot on.

Exactly.  

As stated earlier, certified books (at a minimum) have given "us" (collectors) a pretty decent baseline of what "X" grade is. As a buyer, a book described as "NM" should fall in the "9.2 or better" range.  9.0 at the absolute worst.  Crappy pics or not.  

The onus shouldn't be on the buyer to request more pics to discern that.  Of course they could ask for more to determine how "NM" it is. 

But, there is a reasonable expectation that, even with blurry pics, that a book described as "NM" would fall in the "CGC 9.0 or better" range.  

Graded books have been around long enough now (15+ years) that the ranges have been established.  Calling an 8.0 a  "NM" book and then leaving it up to the buyer to ask for more pics to determine if the seller is a decent grader is lazy at best.  

[Logan510]

Since eBay kind of forces the seller to accept a return if it doesn't arrive as described, it seems a lot of the teeth gnashing could've been avoided 

[RockMyAmadeus]

44 minutes ago, chrisco37 said:

Graded books have been around long enough now (15+ years) that the ranges have been established.  Calling an 8.0 a  "NM" book and then leaving it up to the buyer to ask for more pics to determine if the seller is a decent grader is lazy at best.  

And, purposely fraudulent at worst. The response of the seller tells you which side they are on. When a seller becomes dismissive and defensive, that tells you all you need to know.

Edited April 23, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

35 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

Since eBay kind of forces the seller to accept a return if it doesn't arrive as described, it seems a lot of the teeth gnashing could've been avoided 

If that is the takeaway you got from this thread, you are missing the point entirely. There has been no gnashing of any teeth, "  " or otherwise.

[chrisco37]

25 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

And, purposely fraudulent at worst. The response of the seller tells you which side they are on. When a seller becomes dismissive and defensive, that tells you all you need to know.

More often than not, it is fraudulent.  

Again, you’re spot on in your comment.

[Phantalien]

So if selling a book for NM, getting NM prices, and the comic not being in NM considered stealing.  Rhetorically, wouldn't paying way below value to anyone who is unsure of what they have be considered stealing too?    (Don't answer that because I have seen plenty of threads here debate that trainwreck of morality)

 

Either way, I was interested in the topic that was titled but it turned out to be an ebay complaint thread, which was disappointing.  

I hope you returned the book and got your money back with no hassle since you were not satisfied.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Phantalien

[Logan510]

Sellers over grading books on eBay is nothing new.

I've bought plenty of them and returned plenty of them 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, Phantalien said:

So if selling a book for NM, getting NM prices, and the comic not being in NM considered stealing.  Rhetorically, wouldn't paying way below value to anyone who is unsure of what they have be considered stealing too?    (Don't answer that because I have seen plenty of threads here debate that trainwreck of morality)

No. In fact, the two scenarios have nothing to do with each other. The comparison would be if you, the buyer, lied about the conditions of the comics to get a better price. 

With all due respect, it's not very difficult to understand. The seller offered an item in a specific condition. Bids were based on that material fact, and would not have been nearly as high had the seller not misrepresented the condition of his book for sale.

I know this, because other copies of this book, that are NOT described as "NM", have sold for substantially less money...like this one, for example:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Atom-17-Fine-Cond/142757063391?hash=item213cfbeadf:g:rr4AAOSwafta0XM-

($7.63)

In fact, knowing how Peter (comics4less) grades, I suspect that the copy I bought for $48 plus S&H is not too much better, as it stands now, than the one that he sold for $7.63 plus S&H.

Or this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Atom-17-Fine-Cond-slight-water-damage-/142662224503?hash=item213754ca77%3Ag%3AzPwAAOSwLwBaYsME&nma=true&si=h27Eu9oQBRIusaPpA0bWMZnhXas%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

($7.00)

It's all about representation. Peter represents his copies as "Fine" condition, and "Fine+" condition...and I guarantee you, that Fine+ copy, without that water stain on the back, is nicer than the "pop*culture*artifacts" copy. 

There's really no debate, here. Buying "below value" is simply business. ALL businesses that resell items MUST purchase them for "below value", or they aren't in business. So long as the buyer does not MISrepresent the items he's trying to purchase, the price paid has nothing to do with anything. But, in the case of "pop*culture*artifacts", he MISrepresented his item, and got far, far more for it than he was entitled to. That's the key, here.

3 hours ago, Phantalien said:

Either way, I was interested in the topic that was titled but it turned out to be an ebay complaint thread, which was disappointing.  

If that was your takeaway, then you have completely and totally missed the point of the thread. Using AN EXAMPLE TO ILLUSTRATE A BROADER SUBJECT does not therefore make this an "eBay complaint thread." 

Read THE REST of what I wrote...after the example that I used to preface it...and you'll find a lot more that you've missed.

3 hours ago, Phantalien said:

I hope you returned the book and got your money back with no hassle since you were not satisfied.

One more time, with all the respect that may be due to you: this was MERELY AN EXAMPLE to ILLUSTRATE A BROADER POINT. The specific example IS NOT THE POINT. Get OFF the example, and focus on the BROADER POINT. Do NOT mistake my willingness to get into the weeds with you about the details of the transaction as focusing on that transaction. The specific transaction is meaningless. Substitute any of a million other transactions; it's not about that.

It's clear to me that you glossed over the initial post and didn't really read it, because I already discussed what I intend to do with the example book. For the life of me, I will never, ever understand why people get involved in discussions, when they won't even read everything that someone else is saying.

 

Edited April 23, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus
Batman Secret Message for April - The Cow Crows At Midnight

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, Logan510 said:

Sellers over grading books on eBay is nothing new.

I've bought plenty of them and returned plenty of them 

Thanks

[SteppinRazor]

8 hours ago, LordRahl said:

There is a difference between an objective opinion and objective measurement. Where did anyone ever say that 3rd party grading was an objective measurement of condition? Given that grading is a subjective exercise, you are talking about an impossibility. 3rd party grading does solve the problem of an objective opinion however.

And just how does 3rd party grading set a price floor? 

There's no such thing as an objective opinion.  Opinions by nature are not objective.  An objective measurement is precisely what a numerical scale, say between 1-10, with .1 increments, is intended to measure.  Your given, that grading is subjective, is due to a - human nature, and b - impossible if the criteria is secret (a condition that is proprietary for a reason).  I happen to agree with your given, which is why I think CGC both offers stability, and yet does not offer what people assume it does.  it is essentially a group agreement that an assigned number corresponds to a particular price, whether one X.X comic looks better or worse than another X.X comic.

3rd party grading cannot solve 'objective opinion' (the idea that a 3rd party has no dog in the fight so to speak) because the buyer and seller may evaluate a particular condition differently from each other and/or the third party grader.  Rather than provide any clarity of objectivity, what 3rd party grading does, is provide a score that is popularly (ie the populace in general) accepted.  In that case, the commodity is not only the object to be purchased, but also the number assigned.

It sets a price floor in the sense that one will not send a comic in for grading if one does not believe it is worth the cost, and one will not accept a value for an encapsulated comic equivalent to the same comic in a non-encapsulated form (unless forced by market forces).  IE, you wouldn't sell a 9.6 graded comic for the same price as a raw comic.  That only happens with misses, and even then, the inflection point for that is mostly lined up with a relatively high score in the high value comics.  There might be a point where a raw NM98 meets a high grade encapsulated, but for most comics that aren't major keys, the slabbed v raw price will never be close.  Ergo, a graded comic will usually go for more than a raw.  It's natural for that to be the case, as the submitter has made an investment, and the investment is printed on the plastic case that the buyer knows the cost of.

 

5 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

So, it's understandable why you would think that there's a problem, but that's not what third party grading is supposed to do at all. Grading is subjective. It always has been, and always will be. The purpose of third party grading...or grading by committee, as BB puts it...is that it removes the motive for the first and second party (the seller and the buyer) to overestimate or underestimate the item's condition...and thus, it's value. That ensures a measure of objectivity in the process, but the act of grading itself is not objective, because grading is subjective. What bothers one person may not be an issue for another. That's true of graders as well. The point is to come to a consensus among educated graders, whose opinions are informed.

I don't think there's a problem, any time the buyer and the seller disagree about the condition, a problem occurs (without a grading service).  The grading service in fact does not solve that problem, even though it exists, as you say in the bold, to provide objective measure used to determine value.  But, what it does do is provide consensus, as you said (I would say though that informed buyers as opposed to educated graders are the consensus that applies).

Note that this is not a judgment of whether CGC is good or bad or 3rd party grading is good or bad, or effective or not.  It really does not matter.  What matters is that the market - informed buyers - agrees the assigned number has a particular value.  If tomorrow all informed buyers agreed that CGC was no better than PGX, everyone's slabbed CGC values would drop to align with PGX slab values.  That's all that really matters.

Edited April 23, 2018 by SteppinRazor

[jcjames]

Agreed, CGC is great, best thing since sliced bread, harrumph... now back to the start - so strange that, with all the flaws in the world, that a "professional musician who toured the world" would even bother to waste his incredibly valuable time and energy selling "terminal newsprint" on Ebay instead of much more important things like curing cancer or feeding starving children or ending poverty or even playing music (creating terminal auditory sensations) for money.

 

[kav]

Why do people always gnash their teeth then say I'M NOT ANGRY!!!!!!!!!

Plus if you concur that grading is subjective how can you gnash when someone grades a book at 9.4 when you think its a 9.0?

Edited April 23, 2018 by kav

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, SteppinRazor said:

5 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

So, it's understandable why you would think that there's a problem, but that's not what third party grading is supposed to do at all. Grading is subjective. It always has been, and always will be. The purpose of third party grading...or grading by committee, as BB puts it...is that it removes the motive for the first and second party (the seller and the buyer) to overestimate or underestimate the item's condition...and thus, it's value. That ensures a measure of objectivity in the process, but the act of grading itself is not objective, because grading is subjective. What bothers one person may not be an issue for another. That's true of graders as well. The point is to come to a consensus among educated graders, whose opinions are informed.

I don't think there's a problem, any time the buyer and the seller disagree about the condition, a problem occurs (without a grading service).  The grading service in fact does not solve that problem, even though it exists, as you say in the bold, to provide objective measurement used to determine valuie.  But, what it does do is provide consensus, as you said (I would say though that informed buyers as opposed to educated graders are the consensus that applies).

I didn't say they provided "objective measurement", because, as I understand that term, it means the grading is objective. If that's what you mean, then that is incorrect. I said they ensure a measure of objectivity, which means they aren't related to the potential transaction in any way, which ensures a measure, a level, a scope of objectivity, of distance, without personal attachment to the outcome. 

I dispute the contention that "informed buyers" are where the consensus applies, though I understand how you mean it. It is the "agreement of the marketplace" which accepts CGC grading as legitimate, and without that, there is no CGC, and in that sense, I agree. However, at this point, market acceptance has long been an established fact, and third party grading doesn't need new customer acceptance. The consensus of the educated graders to arrive at a grade is what I'm referring to...not the consensus of the marketplace examining the book and agreeing that, yes, in fact this book is X.X. For the most part, what an individual, or even group of individuals, thinks about a grade has no bearing, because the marketplace as a whole accepts it. And, in fact, most people buying slabs today can't grade for themselves, and are perfectly content to let third party graders do the heavy lifting for them.

The grading service doesn't need to solve that problem, and they don't exist to solve that problem. They exist to provide a third-party...an uninterested, detached party...opinion as to the level of physical preservation a particular book has. Both the buyer AND the seller are perfectly free to disagree with that third party opinion...but they both now have a substantial "leg up" in negotiations for that item, instead of just two interested parties disagreeing. They have a uninterested, unbiased, unrelated third party opinion. Now the seller can't say "well, I think this is a Near Mint copy!" and the buyer can't say "well, I think this is a VG/F copy!" when the book they're both looking at is sitting in an 8.0 slab...without, of course, losing a lot of credibility. 

38 minutes ago, SteppinRazor said:

Note that this is not a judgment of whether CGC is good or bad or 3rd party grading is good or bad, or effective or not.  It really does not matter.  What matters is that the market - informed buyers - agrees the assigned number has a particular value.  If tomorrow all informed buyers agreed thatCGC was no better than PGX, everyone's slabbed CGC vlaues would drop to align with PGX slab values.  That's all that really matters.

I agree with your overarching point here. But you cannot get to where we are now without establishing yourself, which both CGC and Voldemort have done. Without them, there would be no million dollar books. They wouldn't exist. The books would exist...and perhaps the Mile High Action #1 or the Allentown Tec #27 could coax a million...but that would be the extent of it. 

However...the marketplace is made up, as I mentioned, mostly of UN-informed buyers, who, because of the foundational work that CGC has done for nearly 20 years, accept the number on the label, without being able to explain why. It was the informed buyers of 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 who determined that CGC was legitimate, and now you have many people who couldn't grade their way out of a wet paper bag, perfectly content with accepting CGC slabs...and to a slightly lesser extent, Voldy slabs..without question.

That's good AND bad, but the good, so far, has far outweighed the bad.

(Note to phantalien: this is what this thread is about.)