Can anything be done..... 1 1

[JollyComics]

5 hours ago, jokiing said:

Thanks guys, for the advice.... I'm old school and was mainly collecting in the early 70's thru late 90's.... so the process of slabbing comics is a somewhat new concept.  It is a tough call whether or not to have it graded. My initial thought was to sell it raw. One of the lowest slabbed copies that I saw sold on ebay was a 3.5  for $480. Any ideas what range CGC could grade my copy? That's the few hundred dollar question.... Taking the stain and cost of slabbing into consideration I'm thinking a raw sale might be my best option....

Look at the history sales in 2016 (1st column) and 2018 (last three columns - last 12 month sale, last 90 day sale and last sale). See all red typos - those are restorations. You can see the cost difference blue and red typos.

Edited July 14, 2018 by JollyComics

[jokiing]

22 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

For this very reason, I specifically stated do not place a grade on the book in the listing...... 

Put up good pics and give the 'usual' spiel about not being a professional grader, look at the pics for details. Mention there is cover stains, not on the interior, and the book has not been pressed or cleaned.

 let the bidder decide the grade.

Exactly what I plan on doing...added more pics (12 total) ,left grading up to the buyers and sold as is, no returns. There is no mystery as to what they're bidding on.

[jokiing]

Thanks for the spread sheet JC.... We'll see if my sale fits the average...

[James J Johnson]

4 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

For this very reason, I specifically stated do not place a grade on the book in the listing...... 

Put up good pics and give the 'usual' spiel about not being a professional grader, look at the pics for details. Mention there is cover stains, not on the interior, and the book has not been pressed or cleaned.

 let the bidder decide the grade.

That's it. No grade. That's the way to go. Use of terms like "near perfect", "Super high grade", "Wow", "Look!!!", "Never read". Why should he mention anything about the condition? You can see the stain in the photo. Mentioning it is only going to draw attention to it.

Edited July 15, 2018 by James J Johnson

[Bomber-Bob]

4 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

But because the buyer has been given unlimited power over sellers on ebay, even if he uses the standard, "I'm not a professional grader, so look at the pictures and you decide" that so many sellers now use, if two or three bidders think they're looking at a Fine or better, and get locked into a bidding war, the end result $1200 or something like that, just using that figure as an example, and the winner submits it to the CGC, who posts a 3.5 for it (What is that? A $350 book? You better believe that as soon as the winner gets wind of it, it's a dispute.

I know what you're saying. No grade, the buyer is the one on the hook. But on ebay, the seller is always the one on the hook, and the buyer doesn't even need a reason. "Materially different" is enough, and the buyer will win the case. This is why if and when I sell, it's through Heritage, Link, Connect, etc., etc., and it's CGCed beforehand. Let them handle the aggravation and blowback from it, if any, check please!

I don't sell on E-Bay, in fact I hardly ever sell at all, so I am not aware of the current E-Bay environment. However, I find it hard to believe a buyer could dispute the scenario you described above.  Perhaps someone else that regularly sells on E-Bay can comment on your scenario. On a personal note, it seems like you are trying too hard to 'win' the OP over to your suggestion. I find this puzzling. At this point we should just wish the OP good luck and step aside. No right or wrong, no winner or loser, no biggie. 

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, Bomber-Bob said:

I don't sell on E-Bay, in fact I hardly ever sell at all, so I am not aware of the current E-Bay environment. However, I find it hard to believe a buyer could dispute the scenario you described above.  Perhaps someone else that regularly sells on E-Bay can comment on your scenario. On a personal note, it seems like you are trying too hard to 'win' the OP over to your suggestion. I find this puzzling. At this point we should just wish the OP good luck and step aside. No right or wrong, no winner or loser, no biggie. 

I don't know what I was talking about. Must have been temporary insanity. Maybe too much anti-histamine. Ebay is the safest environment in the world for sellers, nothing can go wrong. Ever. It's the closest thing to Utopia for sellers. Ebay always backs the sellers 100%, the seller is always right, even if he's wrong! I must have lost my mind. Raw is the way to go. You're right, I'm wrong. Lesson learned. Easier. .

Edited July 15, 2018 by James J Johnson

[Bomber-Bob]

3 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

I'm not trying to do anything. I don't care where he sells it, either way, it doesn't make or break my day. I'm just pointing out that buyers hold all the cards on ebay, and that's the scenario. You can pretty much verify this simply by reading accounts told by googling "buyers always right on ebay", and key searches of that nature.. Plenty of reading material there. I have no dog in this race and no reason to lie. But don't take my word for anything. Hit the net and read about who has the upper hand and to what extent..

Okay, I did the "buyers always right on ebay" Google search and it only got one hit ? Even that was about a local pickup bought by someone far away.

[James J Johnson]

30 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Okay, I did the "buyers always right on ebay" Google search and it only got one hit ? Even that was about a local pickup bought by someone far away.

There are no horror stories for sellers. No seller has ever been scammed on ebay by a buyer, it just cant happen. Never happened, never will. I must have gotten a hold of some bad drugs, even though I don't do drugs!

Edited July 15, 2018 by James J Johnson

[Bomber-Bob]

8 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

Sorry.

Ebay/Paypal buyer/seller horror stories.

There are entire forum sections dedicated to this.

Just have to tool around on google

Okay, I googled this, specifically for comic books. I saw this immediately. Seems to pertain to our discussion.

1. Don't say what the grade is. It's not worth it. Even if you're correct, they can say they disagree. Maybe they don't like that it has a bent corner even if that does make it NM still. So they need an apprasal? Okay, bend the comic in half and take it in. Appraised at 5.0, they get refund. Nothing you can do to prevent this .... nothing.

I did read a hypothetical comment that 'even with pictures from all angles, a buyer can inflict damage to a book beyond the pictures and claim not as described'.  I suppose that can happen even in a slab. The comments relating to get it appraised and returning for not as described seemed to all relate to an opinion of grade in the listing. As scary as E-Bay sounds I'm not sure the big auction houses would be immune to scammers either. As long as a Credit Card is used, they can dispute. 

[James J Johnson]

3 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Okay, I googled this, specifically for comic books. I saw this immediately. Seems to pertain to our discussion.

1. Don't say what the grade is. It's not worth it. Even if you're correct, they can say they disagree. Maybe they don't like that it has a bent corner even if that does make it NM still. So they need an apprasal? Okay, bend the comic in half and take it in. Appraised at 5.0, they get refund. Nothing you can do to prevent this .... nothing.

I did read a hypothetical comment that 'even with pictures from all angles, a buyer can inflict damage to a book beyond the pictures and claim not as described'.  I suppose that can happen even in a slab. The comments relating to get it appraised and returning for not as described seemed to all relate to an opinion of grade in the listing. As scary as E-Bay sounds I'm not sure the big auction houses would be immune to scammers either. As long as a Credit Card is used, they can dispute. 

This will never happen. I don't know what I was thinking. I must have been inadvertently stringing random words together again. And the OP shouldn't let my spate of talking in tongue dissuade him from following your advice. Raw is the ticket! 'nuff said, for a long while.

[jokiing]

OK... This thread has turned.... I don't need any lessons or warnings about selling on ebay... been selling collectibles for years without any issues. Only recently have I started thinning out my comic book collection and just wanted advice about stabbing a low grade key book. I take time with my auctions to describe, as well as I can, with words and pictures exactly what I'm offering. Iv'e seem many auctions where the seller does just the opposite with minimal description and one picture. Obviously this lack of clarity can lead to disputes. There are bad apples on both sides, but to lump all of ebay into this is a bit naive or maybe someone had a bad experience .... and the sarcasm isn't funny.

[JollyComics]

28 minutes ago, jokiing said:

OK... This thread has turned.... I don't need any lessons or warnings about selling on ebay... been selling collectibles for years without any issues. Only recently have I started thinning out my comic book collection and just wanted advice about stabbing a low grade key book. I take time with my auctions to describe, as well as I can, with words and pictures exactly what I'm offering. Iv'e seem many auctions where the seller does just the opposite with minimal description and one picture. Obviously this lack of clarity can lead to disputes. There are bad apples on both sides, but to lump all of ebay into this is a bit naive or maybe someone had a bad experience .... and the sarcasm isn't funny.

True. You can take their wisdom or advice. Trust your instinct and follow your gut. See how you go with your book.

[James J Johnson]

3 hours ago, jokiing said:

OK... This thread has turned.... I don't need any lessons or warnings about selling on ebay... been selling collectibles for years without any issues. Only recently have I started thinning out my comic book collection and just wanted advice about stabbing a low grade key book. I take time with my auctions to describe, as well as I can, with words and pictures exactly what I'm offering. Iv'e seem many auctions where the seller does just the opposite with minimal description and one picture. Obviously this lack of clarity can lead to disputes. There are bad apples on both sides, but to lump all of ebay into this is a bit naive or maybe someone had a bad experience .... and the sarcasm isn't funny.

The #1 cause of clarity for both the buyer and seller transacting on ebay is CGC grading. You have to assume a key book like AS 129 is going to be sent for grading. It doesn't really matter what you call the book. Call it "WOW" or call it nothing. Even say nothing about it at all, mention the stain or not, but if by some chance it sells raw for $1500 because bidders thought it was better than it is, and not enough was said to carefully and responsibly represent the book with complete clarity, like being graded by the CGC would accomplish, when it returns from the CGC as a 3.5 or so, a $450 to $600 book that they paid $1200 to$1500 for, you can expect to be getting it back as "materially different". And as stupid and naïve as I am about everything, fallen fresh off the vine, even I know that, but I digress.

Here's what I fail to understand, probably due to my naivety. People on this forum generally profess to be consumer advocates. Indignation when someone reports that some seller is a year behind on an order, or any perception of a seller taking unfair advantage. Why now are there some suggesting deceptive means to put one over on a buyer? "Don't slab it. Don't say anything. Just put pictures". Forum members openly advocating means to obfuscate the true condition of a comic? Typically, hobbyists are critical of sellers who avoid using comic grades to describe comics and instead opt for superlatives that have nothing to do with the standard grading system typically in use. "Say as little as possible and let the buyer trip over his feet if he will", is a new one on me, first time I've heard this in my 6 month tenure here. Is this like the new "me too" movement for comic sellers, "sell it raw and say as little as possible about the true nature of the book or you may not get as much for it?" Very surprising, even to someone as simple minded as me. 

[Bomber-Bob]

5 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

The #1 cause of clarity for both the buyer and seller transacting on ebay is CGC grading. You have to assume a key book like AS 129 is going to be sent for grading. It doesn't really matter what you call the book. Call it "WOW" or call it nothing. Even say nothing about it at all, mention the stain or not, but if by some chance it sells raw for $1500 because bidders thought it was better than it is, and not enough was said to carefully and responsibly represent the book with complete clarity, like being graded by the CGC would accomplish, when it returns from the CGC as a 3.5 or so, a $450 to $600 book that they paid $1200 to$1500 for, you can expect to be getting it back as "materially different". And as stupid and naïve as I am about everything, fallen fresh off the vine, even I know that, but I digress.

Here's what I fail to understand, probably due to my naivety. People on this forum generally profess to be consumer advocates. Indignation when someone reports that some seller is a year behind on an order, or any perception of a seller taking unfair advantage. Why now are there some suggesting deceptive means to put one over on a buyer? "Don't slab it. Don't say anything. Just put pictures". Forum members openly advocating means to obfuscate the true condition of a comic? Typically, hobbyists are critical of sellers who avoid using comic grades to describe comics and instead opt for superlatives that have nothing to do with the standard grading system typically in use. "Say as little as possible and let the buyer trip over his feet if he will", is a new one on me, first time I've heard this in my 6 month tenure here. Is this like the new "me too" movement for comic sellers, "sell it raw and say as little as possible about the true nature of the book or you may not get as much for it?" Very surprising, even to someone as simple minded as me. 

James, while I am disappointed in your near meltdown here, you usually have informative posts, so I hope you are okay. Regarding your accusations that anyone here is suggesting deceiving the buyer is completed manufactured on your part. You seem to imply that if the book is not CGC graded you are deceiving the buyer. That's crazy. Also, contrary to your accusations, nobody ever suggested not mentioning the stain. Of course you mention the stain. The OP said he was going to use 12 detailed pics. This book is difficult to grade anyway. In this case, not stating a grade is being completely honest and above board. 

[JollyComics]

1 hour ago, Bomber-Bob said:

James, while I am disappointed in your near meltdown here, you usually have informative posts, so I hope you are okay. Regarding your accusations that anyone here is suggesting deceiving the buyer is completed manufactured on your part. You seem to imply that if the book is not CGC graded you are deceiving the buyer. That's crazy. Also, contrary to your accusations, nobody ever suggested not mentioning the stain. Of course you mention the stain. The OP said he was going to use 12 detailed pics. This book is difficult to grade anyway. In this case, not stating a grade is being completely honest and above board. 

Hey, dudes!  Let's call a truce.

[James J Johnson]

3 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

James, while I am disappointed in your near meltdown here, you usually have informative posts, so I hope you are okay. Regarding your accusations that anyone here is suggesting deceiving the buyer is completed manufactured on your part. You seem to imply that if the book is not CGC graded you are deceiving the buyer. That's crazy. Also, contrary to your accusations, nobody ever suggested not mentioning the stain. Of course you mention the stain. The OP said he was going to use 12 detailed pics. This book is difficult to grade anyway. In this case, not stating a grade is being completely honest and above board. 

There's been no meltdown, and in my opinion, which I am entitled to, and it won't be changed based on anything I've read in this post or any other, that it is not completely honest and above board when you sell a comic not represented by a grade that you are quite capable of assessing.

"I'm going to sell a book on ebay that I know is about a 3.5, and if I CGC it, there won't be a mistake about what the buyer is bidding on. The 3.5 will make it very plain that the stain greatly impacts the grade, as per the CGC result. But, but I won't get as much for it as a CGC 3.5. Instead, I'll sell it raw, I'll mention the stain, include lots of pics, but say nothing about the grade that I know it to be in hope that I'll catch a guppy, even though the fundamental element that should always accompany every sale of a comic is the grade".

Now, I can see if a seller is listing something he knows nothing about. The "I don't know what this is. You tell me. Here's the pictures" type of mentality. But this certainly isn't the case here.

To me, this is like selling with a seized engine. You take 100 pictures of the engine compartment and mention "needs engine work" and that's all that's said. When asked what type of work, you say, "I don't know, I'm not a mechanic".

I'm not saying that he doesn't have the right to say whatever he wants to about the 129, or not. It's his book, his sale, and he can handle it how he wants.

My "meltdown", if you can call it that is about open encouragement to use means of obfuscating what the seller full well knows about an item they're selling. That's the new one on me, but I shouldn't be surprised. Everyone in the GA section was nodding approval for Sparkle bypassing the CGC, opting to sell an Action 1 raw because he wouldn't have gotten as much with CGC's full disclosure of all work done and the resulting 0.5 grade on the label if he had sold it slabbed. That's another case of: "I know it's a 0.5, but I'll get way more representing it as a raw book that looks like a VG/FN".  

I'm surprised by the new "don't CGC it and you'll do better raw with low grade books (because an uneducated buyer makes the best mark) strategy being approved here of all places.

There's no argument. You either think it's best to sell to  fully informed buyer with full disclosure of all you know, or you don't, and that's certainly no meltdown.

[James J Johnson]

3 hours ago, JollyComics said:

Hey, dudes!  Let's call a truce.

There's no need for a truce because there's no fight, no argument. My beliefs about responsible sales strategies differ from most here. I stated mine, and they stated theirs.

It's a discussion board. If everybody thought the same thing about everything discussion boards would be a moot point because there wouldn't be any discussion. Just thumbs up gremlins as a response for everything anyone has to state..

Edited July 15, 2018 by James J Johnson

[The Lions Den]

If I may, I'd like to offer up a few thoughts concerning this interesting discussion. 

I really like both Bomber-Bob and JJJ; you're very intelligent, articulate guys that I enjoy conversing with. You both make good points here, and I agree with many of your observations. I count both of you as friends and I look forward to future discussions.

I buy and sell on eBay all the time; I've been a member since 1998. I remember when eBay was a fantastic place to buy and sell. The rates were low, the people were friendly, and the selection was great. It was like a dream come true.

Unfortunately, over the years, eBay has changed. Now it's much more difficult to find really good deals at a fair price. There have been some changes made which favor the buyer, even if the buyer is basically a crook. I had one experience which cemented this fact for me, in which a buyer attempted to scam me for a nice Silver Surfer Omnibus edition by claiming it wasn't as described, and then sending me back a completely different book which was worth a fraction of the value of the book I sold him. I had to go through a lot of trouble to straighten it out and keep from getting burned. At one point, the buyer had both the money and the book. He also had a very shaky feedback record which involved a number of other negative comments, but eBay still sided with him until I proved to them what he was trying to do. 

Thankfully, those cases are pretty rare (in my experience, anyway). In any event, I do think the owner of this ASM #129 is being up-front about the condition of this book, and if I were going to purchase this copy, I'd have a very good   idea of what I'd be buying (for the record, I'd give his book a 4.0 if he displayed it on the "Spare a Grade" forum). I guess what I'm saying is that I don't have an issue with folks that take good pictures and are up front about the flaws a book has---it's the people who try to deceive potential buyers by withholding key information and flaws that I have a problem with. I hope this helps in some small way, and I wish the owner of the book in question the best of luck...

[Bomber-Bob]

1 hour ago, James J Johnson said:

"I'm going to sell a book on ebay that I know is about a 3.5, and if I CGC it, there won't be a mistake about what the buyer is bidding on. The 3.5 will make it very plain that the stain greatly impacts the grade, as per the CGC result. But, but I won't get as much for it as a CGC 3.5. Instead, I'll sell it raw, I'll mention the stain, include lots of pics, but say nothing about the grade that I know it to be in hope that I'll catch a guppy, even though the fundamental element that should always accompany every sale of a comic is the grade".

 

James, I like to think my moral compass is wound pretty tight. Comes with a Catholic upbringing which perpetually leaves you with 'Catholic guilt'. So I appreciate your desire to have an open and honest transaction. However, just having the book graded doesn't always mean you are getting what you paid for or that the grade is accurate or the book was not manipulated to 'trick' CGC into a grade. Also, many like their books to be raw. The chance to own a lower grade key in a raw state is desirable to many. I just don't share your feeling that selling this book raw is, in any way, a scam.

[Bomber-Bob]

5 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

IThankfully, those cases are pretty rare (in my experience, anyway). In any event, I do think the owner of this ASM #129 is being up-front about the condition of this book, and if I were going to purchase this copy, I'd have a very good   idea of what I'd be buying (for the record, I'd give his book a 4.0 if he displayed it on the "Spare a Grade" forum). I guess what I'm saying is that I don't have an issue with folks that take good pictures and are up front about the flaws a book has---it's the people who try to deceive potential buyers by withholding key information and flaws that I have a problem with. I hope this helps in some small way, and I wish the owner of the book in question the best of luck...

And the Lion has spoken, thanks for commenting. With regards to the stain, I honestly would not know how to grade this as I have never dealt with a stain this large. I once had a Showcase 22 that was appraised by Matt as a 6.5 . I had it graded onsite, by the Haspel Hammer himself, only to get a 4.5 . The reason, a faint water stain. It was similar to this example in that it was on the front and back covers with nothing on the pages (how does that happen?), but not nearly as extensive. So Matt thought 6.5, Mark thought 4.5, who is right ? In the 129 case, I don't think the specific grade matters as much as the disclosure. The grade is an opinion, the stain is a fact. No scam with offering it raw with disclosure.