Can anything be done..... 1 1

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, Bomber-Bob said:

I just don't share your feeling that selling this book raw is, in any way, a scam.

I don't feel that way at all. Never said that selling raw is a scam. I now paraphrase; but the gist of what I stated is that when you are an experienced hobbyist, as the OP did state that he is, a seller should represent a raw book with a grade as well as a description. He can put 100 pictures. If he chooses non-hobby language to describe the book rather than the VG he knows it to be, that borders more on deception by omission rather than responsible inclusion.

The OP is fully aware of the grade. He said so, and why. He's no newbie. A CGC grade would reveal this. He doesn't want to go that fully disclosed route so he's marketing it raw instead, it's his choice.

It's not a scam by any means. It's simply a case of not mentioning the approx. true grade that he knows it to be for fear of getting less. A scam would be not mentioning missing pages or resto, again, only if the OP was aware of it.

Edited July 15, 2018 by James J Johnson

[Bomber-Bob]

55 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

I don't feel that way at all. Never said that selling raw is a scam. I now paraphrase; but the gist of what I stated is that when you are an experienced hobbyist, as the OP did state that he is, a seller should represent a raw book with a grade as well as a description. He can put 100 pictures. If he chooses non-hobby language to describe the book rather than the VG he knows it to be, that borders more on deception by omission rather than responsible inclusion.

The OP is fully aware of the grade. He said so, and why. He's no newbie. A CGC grade would reveal this. He doesn't want to go that fully disclosed route so he's marketing it raw instead, it's his choice.

It's not a scam by any means. It's simply a case of not mentioning the approx. true grade that he knows it to be for fear of getting less. A scam would be not mentioning missing pages or resto, again, only if the OP was aware of it.

But what is the true grade ? It's really difficult to assign a grade to this book. Did you read my Showcase 22, with a stain, example where Matt Nelson gave it a 6.5 but CGC gave it a 4.5 ? Is one right and the other wrong ? I also disagree that the OP is 'fully' aware of the grade. You stated, 3.5, the Lion stated 4.0, I admit that I don't know. The OP has a vague range but to specifically say he knows it to be VG is not true. What about my comment that many buyers would love to purchase a low grade key in a raw format ? Also, though you did not call it a 'scam', you said 'that borders more on deception by omission rather than responsible inclusion'. Still a very strong accusation.  I don't know what else to say but I just don't agree with you. I think the OP will be selling this in a responsible, full disclosure, manner. 

[jokiing]

As I mentioned, before this thread went rouge, I stopped buying new comics in the late 90's because it was starting to get too expensive for me. I'm now to the point where I need to start thinning out collections. Slabbing and professional grading is something I'm only just starting to learn about.... not like the days of mylar sleeves and acid-free boxes and not so many points of grade. I've been thinking about the purpose and reasons for slabbing a 129 that is 3.5 to 4.0 and I know some might pee their pants for me saying this, but personally I don't see an advantage. It's for sure a key issue, but how rare is it really? There are lots to choose from on ebay in all sorts of conditions and price ranges. I just sent 3 copies into CGC last week from my collection. James pointed out that the first thing a buyer is going to do is send it in to CGC (and be totally disappointed).... But why would they do that? It's obvious that the book will grade low.... Are they speculating, hoping to squeeze a few more bucks out of it? What is wrong with a little old school mylar and maybe a quick read before tucking it away in your acid free box? Some might just like the idea of entombing their key issues no matter the grade, knowing (hoping) that their investment will rise in value as a collectable. Just so I'm not misunderstood, I know that there are many rare comics that benefit from professional grading no matter the condition. ....

BTW.... I added a note to my current 129 auction pointing out that this comic, because of the stain, will most likely grade professionally between 3 and 4 .... If anyone bids $1200. they're an insufficiently_thoughtful_person! and will be getting a raw deal. 

[jokiing]

1 hour ago, James J Johnson said:

I don't feel that way at all. Never said that selling raw is a scam. I now paraphrase; but the gist of what I stated is that when you are an experienced hobbyist, as the OP did state that he is, a seller should represent a raw book with a grade as well as a description. He can put 100 pictures. If he chooses non-hobby language to describe the book rather than the VG he knows it to be, that borders more on deception by omission rather than responsible inclusion.

The OP is fully aware of the grade. He said so, and why. He's no newbie. A CGC grade would reveal this. He doesn't want to go that fully disclosed route so he's marketing it raw instead, it's his choice.

It's not a scam by any means. It's simply a case of not mentioning the approx. true grade that he knows it to be for fear of getting less. A scam would be not mentioning missing pages or resto, again, only if the OP was aware of it.

I'm actually not "fully aware" of the grade..... last time I graded a book it was using NM, F, VG, P with plus or minuses..... Professional grading does make one hesitant in pulling a number... which does support the slabbing idea but when the book has obvious issues I think one would have enough faith in a buyer to evaluate what's being offered, as long as all issues are fully disclosed with words and pictures.

[Bomber-Bob]

24 minutes ago, jokiing said:

As I mentioned, before this thread went rouge, I stopped buying new comics in the late 90's because it was starting to get too expensive for me. I'm now to the point where I need to start thinning out collections. Slabbing and professional grading is something I'm only just starting to learn about.... not like the days of mylar sleeves and acid-free boxes and not so many points of grade. I've been thinking about the purpose and reasons for slabbing a 129 that is 3.5 to 4.0 and I know some might pee their pants for me saying this, but personally I don't see an advantage. It's for sure a key issue, but how rare is it really? There are lots to choose from on ebay in all sorts of conditions and price ranges. I just sent 3 copies into CGC last week from my collection. James pointed out that the first thing a buyer is going to do is send it in to CGC (and be totally disappointed).... But why would they do that? It's obvious that the book will grade low.... Are they speculating, hoping to squeeze a few more bucks out of it? What is wrong with a little old school mylar and maybe a quick read before tucking it away in your acid free box? Some might just like the idea of entombing their key issues no matter the grade, knowing (hoping) that their investment will rise in value as a collectable. Just so I'm not misunderstood, I know that there are many rare comics that benefit from professional grading no matter the condition. ....

BTW.... I added a note to my current 129 auction pointing out that this comic, because of the stain, will most likely grade professionally between 3 and 4 .... If anyone bids $1200. they're an insufficiently_thoughtful_person! and will be getting a raw deal. 

Good luck with the sale !  I think someone will be very happy to get this book and, as you said, enjoy it in an old school mylar. For full disclosure, I just put in a bid myself !

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, Bomber-Bob said:

But what is the true grade ? It's really difficult to assign a grade to this book. Did you read my Showcase 22, with a stain, example where Matt Nelson gave it a 6.5 but CGC gave it a 4.5 ? Is one right and the other wrong ? I also disagree that the OP is 'fully' aware of the grade. You stated, 3.5, the Lion stated 4.0, I admit that I don't know. The OP has a vague range but to specifically say he knows it to be VG is not true. What about my comment that many buyers would love to purchase a low grade key in a raw format ? Also, though you did not call it a 'scam', you said 'that borders more on deception by omission rather than responsible inclusion'. Still a very strong accusation.  I don't know what else to say but I just don't agree with you. I think the OP will be selling this in a responsible, full disclosure, manner. 

A seller should be able to come up with a grade if he's a hobbyist. It's not difficult. The book is a VG something. VG-, VG, VG+, call it somewhere in the VG area. Shouldn't be too tough to arrive at that for a hobbyist, right?

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Good luck with the sale !  I think someone will be very happy to get this book and, as you said, enjoy it in an old school mylar. For full disclosure, I just put in a bid myself !

It's a nice book, no doubt. That was never an issue. And if a buyer wants something that doesn't have the usual damaging defects that relegate books to VG areas, and instead wants a qualifier, something that looks a lot better than a VG if not for the stain, they'll be very happy with it. My issue was with representation. Not the item itself.

[jokiing]

4 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

It's a nice book, no doubt. That was never an issue. And if a buyer wants something that doesn't have the usual damaging defects that relegate books to VG areas, and instead wants a qualifier, something that looks a lot better than a VG if not for the stain, they'll be very happy with it. My issue was with representation. Not the item itself.

Did you have a chance to see the actual auction and presentation?

[jokiing]

1 hour ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Good luck with the sale !  I think someone will be very happy to get this book and, as you said, enjoy it in an old school mylar. For full disclosure, I just put in a bid myself !

Thanks for the support and the bid.... Good luck... What is your opinion of my auction layout?

[Bomber-Bob]

10 minutes ago, jokiing said:

Thanks for the support and the bid.... Good luck... What is your opinion of my auction layout?

I think you went above and beyond in your description and narrative. A lot better than most. 

[jokiing]

1 minute ago, Bomber-Bob said:

I think you went above and beyond in your description and narrative. A lot better than most. 

Thanks Bob.... That's how I treat all my auctions. It takes a bit more time, but the end result is happy buyers

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, jokiing said:

... as long as all issues are fully disclosed with words and pictures.

Which should entail the inclusion of a grade. The grade is the lion's share of the full representation. I look on ebay for books and I see grades like "minty fresh", "unread" (usually the books with this grade have horrendous spine wear), "Wow!", "Incredible", and other means of grading a comic outside of the standard protocol, I

 

1 hour ago, jokiing said:

Did you have a chance to see the actual auction and presentation?

Not yet. I will look later on. Still running to and fro' with family today.

[James J Johnson]

4 hours ago, jokiing said:

Did you have a chance to see the actual auction and presentation?

I don't know how Bob found it on ebay. There are 412 Amazing Spider-man 129s currently listed on ebay. Link please.

On a lighter note, take a gander at this "NM/MT"!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

And a warning. Don't have a mouthful of coffee yet to be swallowed when you see the pic of the rusted bottom staple! I was sopping up coffee for the last 5 minutes.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Amazing-Spider-Man-129-NM-M/273358163732?hash=item3fa56a8f14%3Ag%3ACdsAAOSwgvFbMOM0&_sacat=0&_nkw=Amzing+SPider-man+129.+NM%2FM&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0

 

Edited July 16, 2018 by James J Johnson

[jokiing]

1 hour ago, James J Johnson said:

I don't know how Bob found it on ebay. There are 412 Amazing Spider-man 129s currently listed on ebay. Link please.

On a lighter note, take a gander at this "NM/MT"!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

And a warning. Don't have a mouthful of coffee yet to be swallowed when you see the pic of the rusted bottom staple! I was sopping up coffee for the last 5 minutes.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Amazing-Spider-Man-129-NM-M/273358163732?hash=item3fa56a8f14%3Ag%3ACdsAAOSwgvFbMOM0&_sacat=0&_nkw=Amzing+SPider-man+129.+NM%2FM&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0

 

YIKES! You'd think he'd at least have the sense to stop at NM... that alone being a stretch.... at least the starting price will hopefully discourage newbies...and this guy sells comics for a living (at least on ebay)

 

Here's the link to my not even close to Near Mint ASM129

https://www.ebay.com/itm/183325907658

[James J Johnson]

10 hours ago, jokiing said:

YIKES! You'd think he'd at least have the sense to stop at NM... that alone being a stretch.... at least the starting price will hopefully discourage newbies...and this guy sells comics for a living (at least on ebay)

 

Here's the link to my not even close to Near Mint ASM129

https://www.ebay.com/itm/183325907658

Ad looks good.

[jokiing]

Thanks.... and i think the help here with advice regarding grading has given me more confidence adding a grade to future auction with comics having tricky failings.

Edited July 16, 2018 by jokiing

[JollyComics]

4 hours ago, jokiing said:

Thanks.... and i think the help here with advice regarding grading has given me more confidence adding a grade to future auction with comics having tricky failings.

I bid your book today. It looks good. Good luck!

[jokiing]

Thanks JC.... For the bid and the support.....

[James J Johnson]

7 hours ago, jokiing said:

Thanks.... and i think the help here with advice regarding grading has given me more confidence adding a grade to future auction with comics having tricky failings.

You can probably grade better than 90% of the hobbyists. Anyone who has had tenure here, especially visiting the "spare a grade" section learns fast, and by simply going to the Heritage Comics auctions permanent auction archives, you can dial up such great grading study aids like searching, let's say, X-Men 94 for example. You'll see huge, enlargeable images, the quality of which are like looking at the books in hand under a microscope, of 100 or more X-Men 94 from CGC 9.9 on down to the lower grade ranges. Just doing that, comparing the subtle differences between CGC 9.8 and 9.6 and 9.4 and 9.2 and 9.0, etc., etc., on the same issue is an incredible study aid for grading that I would recommend to all. Of course, there's no substitute for having the book in your hand, but the Heritage archive images are the next best thing! Those images, combined with the CGC grades will really fine tune our sense of grading, as it pertains to professional grading.

[jokiing]

13 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

You can probably grade better than 90% of the hobbyists. Anyone who has had tenure here, especially visiting the "spare a grade" section learns fast, and by simply going to the Heritage Comics auctions permanent auction archives, you can dial up such great grading study aids like searching, let's say, X-Men 94 for example. You'll see huge, enlargeable images, the quality of which are like looking at the books in hand under a microscope, of 100 or more X-Men 94 from CGC 9.9 on down to the lower grade ranges. Just doing that, comparing the subtle differences between CGC 9.8 and 9.6 and 9.4 and 9.2 and 9.0, etc., etc., on the same issue is an incredible study aid for grading that I would recommend to all. Of course, there's no substitute for having the book in your hand, but the Heritage archive images are the next best thing! Those images, combined with the CGC grades will really fine tune our sense of grading, as it pertains to professional grading.

Thanks... I looked around Heritage a bit. Your suggestion to examine their achieves is a great idea and tool... will definitely look at that. Have you sold through Heritage and is that somewhere to bring anything other than high end books?

Edited July 17, 2018 by jokiing
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