Will Batman 251 become the new Incredible Hulk 181? 1 1

[Randall Ries]

6 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

That's an odd...and dark...reason for a book to become valuable.

Well, sure but realistically isn't it one of those "1st Appearance Since The Golden Age..." thingys? That's long time for a maniac to refrain from killing his victims. Instead of robbing banks and building elaborate machines trying to kill Batman, Adams took the character back and put him back on the path he was created for: A deadly force to be reckoned with instead of a buffoon with a wounded ego that needed constant attention. I think we're all glad he took "Batman" back and made him "THE Batman" again. The former character became intolerable. The latter one was what Finger, Robinson and Kane created.

The story is pretty good (although I am unclear how he got a shark into a giant glass vat), the artwork outstanding and we get the Joker back. It has a real "Classic Cover" designation, too. If I had my way, I would have CGC "1st Time Joker Kills Since The Golden Age" added to the label. It was either since Batman #9 or Detective #45.

That's the only reason I can come up with for #251 to stand out from most of the other Adams c/a issues at that time. It even outstrips Bat #234 which is arguably more important.

Here is a reasonable article written about it:

https://bigcomicpage.com/2015/09/25/another-essential-batman-251-the-jokers-five-way-revenge/

Edited July 31, 2018 by Randall Ries

[bronze johnny]

1 hour ago, Randall Ries said:

Well, sure but realistically isn't it one of those "1st Appearance Since The Golden Age..." thingys? That's long time for a maniac to refrain from killing his victims. Instead of robbing banks and building elaborate machines trying to kill Batman, Adams took the character back and put him back on the path he was created for: A deadly force to be reckoned with instead of a buffoon with a wounded ego that needed constant attention. I think we're all glad he took "Batman" back and made him "THE Batman" again. The former character became intolerable. The latter one was what Finger, Robinson and Kane created.

The story is pretty good (although I am unclear how he got a shark into a giant glass vat), the artwork outstanding and we get the Joker back. It has a real "Classic Cover" designation, too. If I had my way, I would have CGC "1st Time Joker Kills Since The Golden Age" added to the label. It was either since Batman #9 or Detective #45.

That's the only reason I can come up with for #251 to stand out from most of the other Adams c/a issues at that time. It even outstrips Bat #234 which is arguably more important.

Here is a reasonable article written about it:

https://bigcomicpage.com/2015/09/25/another-essential-batman-251-the-jokers-five-way-revenge/

You're placing too much emphasis on the "Joker killing since the GA." That's never been the driving force behind this book. Adams artwork is. And the same can be said for most (232, 234, Tec 395, and Supes 233 are some exceptions where a first appearance or new direction occurs) of the key BA books drawn by Neal- the greatest BA artist. Btw, I'm sure you're aware that Bats 251 is also a "speculator's book."

[drbanner]

Great cover, but at today's levels it's way over-priced. 

[Martin Sinescu]

6 hours ago, bronze johnny said:

You're placing too much emphasis on the "Joker killing since the GA." That's never been the driving force behind this book. Adams artwork is. And the same can be said for most (232, 234, Tec 395, and Supes 233 are some exceptions where a first appearance or new direction occurs) of the key BA books drawn by Neal- the greatest BA artist. Btw, I'm sure you're aware that Bats 251 is also a "speculator's book."

I agree that the emphasis on that one event is misplaced, but I would argue that the significance should be on Adams/O'Neil steering the Joker toward a darker interpretation -- they reset the standard for the character and pretty much set the path for all cannon interpretations of his personality for 45 years. The murdering is just an example of this change, but is not in and of itself as significant. The Adams interiors and iconic cover are nearly as important, but I think the new direction for how the Joker's character is handled trumps those.

[Randall Ries]

6 hours ago, bronze johnny said:

You're placing too much emphasis on the "Joker killing since the GA." That's never been the driving force behind this book. Adams artwork is. And the same can be said for most (232, 234, Tec 395, and Supes 233 are some exceptions where a first appearance or new direction occurs) of the key BA books drawn by Neal- the greatest BA artist. Btw, I'm sure you're aware that Bats 251 is also a "speculator's book."

There's no other reason why it would be so far ahead of the other Adam's Bat books value wise other than the emphasis I am placing on it. It's been "speculated" on for almost ten years with the values going up steadily. It got the o-fishial Classic Cover designation too, which only Supes 233 enjoys out of the books you mention.

Each of the books you mention have something unusual happening in them to cause a spike in value. Same as 251. Bat 243 has Adams c/a and is still reasonably priced. Even in high grade anyone who wants one can have one despite the black cover. I'm not sure what you are getting at. The fact is the emphasis I am harping on is a very real reason why the book is enjoying popularity.

[Randall Ries]

8 minutes ago, Martin Sinescu said:

I agree that the emphasis on that one event is misplaced, but I would argue that the significance should be on Adams/O'Neil steering the Joker toward a darker interpretation -- they reset the standard for the character and pretty much set the path for all cannon interpretations of his personality for 45 years. The murdering is just an example of this change, but is not in and of itself as significant. The Adams interiors and iconic cover are nearly as important, but I think the new direction for how the Joker's character is handled trumps those.

The murdering is - or the return to the murdering - IS the steering toward a darker interpretation. I think it's significant. Other people have written about how long it had been and heck, I wouldn't have known which issue(s) they were without their research. I found it fascinating which is why I keep returning to that event, but as I say, the return of the Joker to his old ways whether pinpointed as I have been doing, or a more broad definition of "a darker interpretation" are kyna the same thing.

[bronze johnny]

 

3 hours ago, Randall Ries said:

The murdering is - or the return to the murdering - IS the steering toward a darker interpretation. I think it's significant. Other people have written about how long it had been and heck, I wouldn't have known which issue(s) they were without their research. I found it fascinating which is why I keep returning to that event, but as I say, the return of the Joker to his old ways whether pinpointed as I have been doing, or a more broad definition of "a darker interpretation" are kyna the same thing.

The early Bronze Age gives rise to darker interpretations for a number of characters and storylines. Tec 395 lays the groundwork for the new direction Adams/O'Neil decided to take Batman and inevitably, his villians. Darker interpretations weren't exclusive to DC in the world of comics at tthe time. Gwen Stacy's and the Green Goblin's deaths - a few months before Batman 251 hit the newstands.  

Still, what I find fascinating is your comparing a change in the Joker in terms of significance to the introduction of the greatest antihero in the history of the American Comic Book. The Bronze Age's greatest contribution to the medium is the superhero as antihero. Wolverine and the Punisher are the two greatest examples of the superhero as antihero. Please also note that Marvel Comics surpassed DC in sales in early 1972 and begin a period of comic book dominance that neither the Adams/O'Neil Batman nor Superman could overcome.

 

[bronze johnny]

3 hours ago, Martin Sinescu said:

I agree that the emphasis on that one event is misplaced, but I would argue that the significance should be on Adams/O'Neil steering the Joker toward a darker interpretation -- they reset the standard for the character and pretty much set the path for all cannon interpretations of his personality for 45 years. The murdering is just an example of this change, but is not in and of itself as significant. The Adams interiors and iconic cover are nearly as important, but I think the new direction for how the Joker's character is handled trumps those.

The darker interpretation for all things Batman starts with Tec 395. And the apex of the chain of events occuring during the "darker interpretation" Adams/O'Neil era for Batman is Bats 232, not 251. 251's cover is the key attraction in terms of monetary value in the Slab-Age of Comics. And the speculators pushing this book to make $$$ are primarily focused on the cover.

 

[lou_fine]

9 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

251's cover is the key attraction in terms of monetary value in the Slab-Age of Comics. And the speculators pushing this book to make $$$ are primarily focused on the cover.

+1

Also in your corner on this one here...........the valuation on this particular issue here is due primarily to the classic Joker cover image.  

[comicdonna]

I collect solely for the cover art.  I hope you guys drive the price down, so I can get a nice copy.  

[RockMyAmadeus]

12 hours ago, Randall Ries said:

That's the only reason I can come up with for #251 to stand out from most of the other Adams c/a issues at that time. It even outstrips Bat #234 which is arguably more important.

It stands out because it's the first, last, and only time that Neal Adams drew...in the Bronze Age...Batman's arch nemesis. Since "appearances" became a "thing" in the late 80's ("Punisher App! Wolverine App! Joker App!"), that book has stood out as the combination of the most popular Bronze artist, on the second most popular character in history, fighting his arch nemesis, arguably the most popular villain in the history of comics.

Two Face is great, but what holds Two Face back is that he wasn't in the 60's TV show, he didn't even appear in the 60's (except as a throwaway "tryout" in WF #173), and he was basically a 2nd tier villain for Bats, after Joker, Penguin, and Riddler, until the mid 90's. So, #234 barely made a blip for over 20 years, because it featured the return of a forgotten, and forgettable at that point, character. But there's anecdotal evidence to suggest that Batman #251 was exceptionally well received at the time of publication, and, in fact, is what led to the Joker getting his own series a year and a half later (something that was virtually unheard of in comics...a villain getting a series?!)

It's worth pointing out that, aside from reprints, the Joker didn't appear in Batman for over 5 years...from #201 (May 68) to #251 (Sept 73)...and didn't appear on the cover for almost 7 years (Batman #186, Nov 66.)

I think it's a fair assessment to suggest that, after the uber campiness of the tv show, comics buyers were ready for a return of the Joker to much more sinister roots, which O'Neil and Adams provided.

[Martin Sinescu]

1 hour ago, bronze johnny said:

The darker interpretation for all things Batman starts with Tec 395. And the apex of the chain of events occuring during the "darker interpretation" Adams/O'Neil era for Batman is Bats 232, not 251. 251's cover is the key attraction in terms of monetary value in the Slab-Age of Comics. And the speculators pushing this book to make $$$ are primarily focused on the cover.

 

I was specifically addressing the Joker's new direction rather than Batman as a whole. Whether it's 232 or 251 as the apex is debatable. 251 is a standalone issue that tells a complete story while 232 is part of a larger story that's spread out across many issues, so I have a harder time calling that one issue the apex. Again, it's debatable, both are superb, I think I just kind of lean towards 251 for the purposes of having "a" single issue to call the pinnacle of the era. In terms of individual issues of the Ra's story, I think I actually like 'Tec 411, Bats 242 and 243 better than 232, but that's me.

As far as the cover, although I think the board mantra that people only care about covers in the CGC era is dismissive of both collectors and the impact a well-executed cover can have, I won't fault anyone for buying or trumpeting the book because of its cover -- it's a classic and I see it sold as wall-art in non-comic outlets, so it has a broad appeal and reach outside our hobby. Really, though, I stated my case for this book's significance on a number of levels in the "Is Batman 227 the key Neal Adams book?" thread with the cover absolutely being one of those reasons. As was said earlier here, I would put 232 and 251 as the top 2 Neal/O'Neil books, and I would consider 'Tec 400 third most important for the era (although it was scripted by Robbins). I think each issue is extraordinary in terms of cover, story, art, and character development.

2 hours ago, bronze johnny said:

 

Still, what I find fascinating is your comparing a change in the Joker in terms of significance to the introduction of the greatest antihero in the history of the American Comic Book. 

Agreed. It was an odd comparison which was doomed to fail from the outset.

5 hours ago, Randall Ries said:

The murdering is - or the return to the murdering - IS the steering toward a darker interpretation. I think it's significant. Other people have written about how long it had been and heck, I wouldn't have known which issue(s) they were without their research. I found it fascinating which is why I keep returning to that event, but as I say, the return of the Joker to his old ways whether pinpointed as I have been doing, or a more broad definition of "a darker interpretation" are kyna the same thing.

Maybe it seems like a po-tay-to vs. po-tah-to, but my point was that you lose the significance of his major reinterpretation by focusing on the detail of his specific action. Whether he kills anyone or not in this issue is totally irrelevant; It's still a very hard break with his previous iteration. While the cover is an awesome stand-alone image, sure, to me the title splash on page 1 is where the creators declare the TV era Joker dead and buried (there's the real murder in this issue): It's impact is so immediate, so visceral, and it perfectly paints a rather frightening portrait of a deranged maniac -- and he hasn't even killed anyone yet.... he's just driving! Compare it with one of his later Silver appearances:

It's a massive shift away from that goofy "hyuk-hyuk" SA guy. That is what is important in this character's legacy! Again, even if he hadn't killed a couple of nobodies in this issue, the character as a whole is completely changed and that impact still guides the character 45 years later! Does murder illustrate the point that he's now playing by a different set of rules? Yes, Is the fact that he murders in and of itself as significant as that shift? No.

 

[JTLarsen]

This was a seminal re-imagining of one of the best known characters in popular fiction. By a pioneer of the form. Not a lot of mystery here.

[RockMyAmadeus]

By the way...an interesting twist on this topic is this: had Batman #251 been the Joker's first appearance...had the Joker never appeared before then, but still became the most popular Batman villain despite that, still enjoyed the popularity that he does today, still appeared as the main villain in the original Batman movie, still had the Heath Ledger performance, etc...then yes, Batman #251 would no question rival Hulk #181 in popularity, demand and value. in this "first appearance" obsessed market. 

Granted, that's what Finger, Robinson, and Kane had created in 1940, but...the character the Joker had become wasn't the character they created. Without the ensuing years, the boners, the TV show...it's certainly quite possible that the character that O'Neil and Adams essentially re-created in #251 would be one of the most sought after comics of the era.

It's an interesting theory.

Edited August 1, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[Randall Ries]

No, I know the comparison is silly. It was meant to be to get attention directed to different issues and the way they stack up against the infallible IH 181. Bat 251 is all the things I have mentioned and you all have mentioned. I love the conversation we have been having. I was only illustrating that the return to murdering was a key point in the issue and that act finally redirected the character from the boob he had become since the 1940's. I didn't want to go into all the other things that made the issue pivotal as I felt they were obvious. I never said the murdering was the ONLY reason for the recent price spike, but it IS a big reason. It set the table for what the character has become and will remain.

Also, I feel the cover, while classic and beautiful, is just "ok". It has never knocked me out even when I was a kid. I noticed the leg thing even as a ten year old when it was on the newsstands and in drug stores. As a kid who loved drawing, it stood out like a sore thumb. No. It was the interior that knocked me out.

We all owe a debt of gratitude to Neal O'Neil (I love that) for their creativity and their apparent ire over what all those characters had become. To basically take the characters back and reset the mythos was the best thing that could ever have happened to them. Starting with Tec 395 and ending with Bat 255, Neal O'Neil simply put things back to where they should have stayed.

I have thought about the splash in 251 and idly wondered: "I wonder who the poor sap was who taught the Joker to drive?" An in joke my friends and I have had for years is "Rest In Pieces, Alby", a line I use after kicking someone's in a big game of chess. That issue seeped into my consciousness for years. The full panel of Batman running on the beach has been reproduced in different forms for years. The way the story flowed from one panel to the next is like poetry.

I don't get the same feeling with IH 181. The story isn't all that great and it seems like it was a tryout to see how it would go. They were lucky it took. It is a clunky story.

When I read the current Adams Bat stuff, I have to admit I don't like it. The writing is terrible, the plots are ok, but there is a style and feel that is severely lacking. I'm not buying it. Those 1970's stories and artwork were excellent. Every single one of them. Batman 237 took place in the town that's 20 minutes away from where I live. As a kid, that was thrilling to me.

I wish that I had bought a bunch of 251's in 2009 or 2010, whenever I had bought my copy. $115 for a 9.0? I thought that was a good deal then. My goal was to buy all those classic Adams issues, which  did. Except for 242. I can't find the right copy that catches all the "word circle" in the bottom right hand corner. The oversized Treasury Edition C-51 I finally got graded by CBCS as a 9.2. They had the genius idea of grading, sliding the issue into an oversized mylar sleeve and adding two circular tabs to seal it closed in the back. Break the seals, void the grade. That is a lovely reprint with a new cover (at the time) by Adams. Even bought a signed poster of the wrap around artwork.

[chrisco37]

It’s been a good discussion, even if the original question was a bit of a reach.  Lots of good points.  I think the “return of the psychopath Joker” has merit, but really the simple point is that it’s a “Joker  Cover”.  Look across the ages.  In every age, Joker covers go for more (on average) than any other Bat-books (pre-Robin Tecs and 1st apps excluded).  

When you add in the “Adams Premium” it kicks it up another level.

The “murderous Joker” return is probably the next bump, along with Batman going back to his detective roots.

It’s basically a “perfect storm”.  I’ve had a few copies over the years (don’t have one now, and don’t see myself buying back in at the current prices; I’d buy a Ditko Spidey instead), but I sold them off.

I think 232 is the “best” book of the bunch (and 221 is my favorite cover), but I understand why people love this book.  I put it at #2 or 2a (with 234) as the Adams Bat-book.  

[valiantman]

2 hours ago, Randall Ries said:

No, I know the comparison is silly. It was meant to be to get attention directed to different issues and the way they stack up against the infallible IH 181.

Hulk 181 isn't infallible.  I has the 1st Wolverine cover but can't claim any better than the 2nd Wolverine story page. 

[bronze johnny]

2 hours ago, Randall Ries said:

No, I know the comparison is silly. It was meant to be to get attention directed to different issues and the way they stack up against the infallible IH 181. Bat 251 is all the things I have mentioned and you all have mentioned. I love the conversation we have been having. I was only illustrating that the return to murdering was a key point in the issue and that act finally redirected the character from the boob he had become since the 1940's. I didn't want to go into all the other things that made the issue pivotal as I felt they were obvious. I never said the murdering was the ONLY reason for the recent price spike, but it IS a big reason. It set the table for what the character has become and will remain.

Also, I feel the cover, while classic and beautiful, is just "ok". It has never knocked me out even when I was a kid. I noticed the leg thing even as a ten year old when it was on the newsstands and in drug stores. As a kid who loved drawing, it stood out like a sore thumb. No. It was the interior that knocked me out.

We all owe a debt of gratitude to Neal O'Neil (I love that) for their creativity and their apparent ire over what all those characters had become. To basically take the characters back and reset the mythos was the best thing that could ever have happened to them. Starting with Tec 395 and ending with Bat 255, Neal O'Neil simply put things back to where they should have stayed.

I have thought about the splash in 251 and idly wondered: "I wonder who the poor sap was who taught the Joker to drive?" An in joke my friends and I have had for years is "Rest In Pieces, Alby", a line I use after kicking someone's in a big game of chess. That issue seeped into my consciousness for years. The full panel of Batman running on the beach has been reproduced in different forms for years. The way the story flowed from one panel to the next is like poetry.

I don't get the same feeling with IH 181. The story isn't all that great and it seems like it was a tryout to see how it would go. They were lucky it took. It is a clunky story.

When I read the current Adams Bat stuff, I have to admit I don't like it. The writing is terrible, the plots are ok, but there is a style and feel that is severely lacking. I'm not buying it. Those 1970's stories and artwork were excellent. Every single one of them. Batman 237 took place in the town that's 20 minutes away from where I live. As a kid, that was thrilling to me.

I wish that I had bought a bunch of 251's in 2009 or 2010, whenever I had bought my copy. $115 for a 9.0? I thought that was a good deal then. My goal was to buy all those classic Adams issues, which  did. Except for 242. I can't find the right copy that catches all the "word circle" in the bottom right hand corner. The oversized Treasury Edition C-51 I finally got graded by CBCS as a 9.2. They had the genius idea of grading, sliding the issue into an oversized mylar sleeve and adding two circular tabs to seal it closed in the back. Break the seals, void the grade. That is a lovely reprint with a new cover (at the time) by Adams. Even bought a signed poster of the wrap around artwork.

 The connections you have to these books and youth - don't ever lose that. I've said it before that the greatest books and the most incredible experience a comic book lover can have relates to the books we encountered in our youth (even if you weren't impressed with the cover to 251). Every other experience, whether compiling a collection of the highest graded copies or achieving the greatest collections feat during a later stage in life is secondary to the joys one had being at the newsstand or candy store and picking out the comics you wanted off the rack. And for those who have never had this experience and only later got into comic books for whatever reason, no purchase in the world can capture the glory of childhood collecting.

I will mention in reference to your point about Neal O'Neil (love this!) "putting things back to where they should have stayed," that the late Bronze Age did have another incredible Batman artist whose brilliant artistic style differed from the amazing aesthetic realism of Adams. The artist, Marshall Rogers, teamed up with Steve Englehart to achieve a level of greatness that is another highlight of the Bronze Age Batman. Who could forget the brilliance of the Tec run from 471 - 476? And another brilliant Joker cover on Tec 475. 

The Bronze Age Batman will forever be referred to as the era that started with Adams and O'Neil and ended with Rogers and Englehart. 

Edited August 2, 2018 by bronze johnny

[chrisco37]

Marshall Rogers has always been under-rated.  Glad you brought him up.  He’s not Adams, but he belongs in the same tier as Aparo and Breyfogle.  Maybe the Ross Andre Spidey equivalent for Batman.  Just a really good artist that could crank stuff out.  Rob Frenz would be another Marvel comparison.

And not garbage like Robbins.  But solid stuff.  

I’ve got a bit of a “soft spot” for him.  He was one of the first artists I met at a con (a MD/DC jubilee show back in the late 80’s).  I was 13-14.  Waited in line to have him sign some Silver Surfers and Excalibur.  Not a long wait at all.  He was so friendly and welcoming.  As a kid, that was just incredible.  Never forget it.

[Randall Ries]

Absolutely agree with both previous posts. Neal O'Neil set the train back on the tracks and other artists picked up on it and did their best. Loved the Aparo Brave and the Bolds in the 1970's. #109 was my first B&B purchase "Gotham Bay Be My Grave". Loved his artwork more than Adams' in some respect. His lines seemed to move. Like the cover on B&B 114. Aparo's art got heavy in his later years, but the 1970's stuff, coupled with Haney stories were unmatched.

We had a factory outlet in town where I bought a lot of comics. The Adams run, Captain America #100-? were bought there and a lot of the oversized treasury and Famous 1st Editions. Of course the pharmacy in town as well. We still have that little kid in us, those that were fortunate to be able to spend our allowances there. The smell of the paper, the olfactory memory thing, is still a major trigger.

Whenever I get a whiff of cheap bubble gum, I am brought back to my brother collecting Topps baseball cards in 1975. Those really WERE the days. I am glad and blessed I am not a latter day collector or strictly a buyer of those old books predicated on speculation. I love the books and would collect them regardless of their value. My collection is humble, but I think it's a quality collection. Even sought out the Little Lulu Four Color where she smokes doll hair and hallucinates. Just because I read about it in the 1970's in an Overstreet Price Guide. And I loved Little Lulu and Tubby when I was a kid.

It's a Peter Pan complex to be sure. It's a thrill to see the books we loved as kids become so relevant in pop culture. Shown here is Bat 243. A nice book and has the whole of Lings foot! A weird criteria for buying the book. LOL!

 

Edited August 2, 2018 by Randall Ries