What percent of existing copies of Action 1, Detective 27, Superman 1, and Batman 1 are already CGC graded? 1 1

[Mr bla bla]

36 minutes ago, batman_fan said:

even loser collectors like me have keys that are still raw even though I am very familiar with CGC.

Now, off you go to the Sarasota boys. You can perform a walkthrough ...

[lou_fine]

2 hours ago, Sqeggs said:

5 hours ago, TeddieMercede said:

Grading major keys isn’t cheap - comics held up fine before CGC decided to encase them in plastic. Unless you’re selling most of these old timers have 0 reason to throw em in a slab.

Keeping them safe from accidental damage?  I'm not sitting on any ungraded megakeys, but if I were, I would breathe easier with the books slabbed and in a safety deposit box.  Even if I were fine keeping them in Mylars, I'd probably still want a resto check to get a better fix on what I had.  Of course, it is possible to have that done without getting the book graded.

Would they not be just as safe in a nice shiny mylar holder sitting in a safety deposit box?  The safety box would definitely hold a lot more mylars as compared to those huge bulky cumbersome slabs.  

And if the collector has had them long enough, resto tends to have less relative importance as even a restored copy would most likely be worth multiples of what they had originally paid for the books.  The passing of time is often a great healer of even some terrible purchasing mistakes.  

[batman_fan]

Just now, Mr bla bla said:

Now, off you go to the Sarasota boys. You can perform a walkthrough ...

But why?  Gator gave me an estimate of $1000 to get it graded so I spend $1000 to get the book in a plastic case for what?  I am not selling it, I know the full history of the book as it came from and original owner collection to a dealer, then to me.  I actually still pull it out of the bag and thumb through it.

[Mr bla bla]

12 minutes ago, batman_fan said:

But why?  Gator gave me an estimate of $1000 to get it graded so I spend $1000 to get the book in a plastic case for what?  I am not selling it, I know the full history of the book as it came from and original owner collection to a dealer, then to me.  I actually still pull it out of the bag and thumb through it.

Makes sense 100% ?

[Ze-man]

27 minutes ago, batman_fan said:

But why?  Gator gave me an estimate of $1000 to get it graded so I spend $1000 to get the book in a plastic case for what?  I am not selling it, I know the full history of the book as it came from and original owner collection to a dealer, then to me.  I actually still pull it out of the bag and thumb through it.

This I dont get, how can you enjoy a comic book if CGC has'nt first told you what their opinion is of it?   You act like comic books were meant to be handled, sniffed, and read?

 

[batman_fan]

8 minutes ago, Ze-man said:

This I dont get, how can you enjoy a comic book if CGC has'nt first told you what their opinion is of it?   You act like comic books were meant to be handled, sniffed, and read?

 

 I have been actively collecting since 1976 and just discovered comics have this thing called interiors.  I wasn't aware of it but I accidentally came upon it while looking for something else on Google.  Opened up a whole new world for me.

[Ze-man]

8 minutes ago, batman_fan said:

 I have been actively collecting since 1976 and just discovered comics have this thing called interiors.  I wasn't aware of it but I accidentally came upon it while looking for something else on Google.  Opened up a whole new world for me.

Interiors?  I'm going to have to Google that now to see what this is all about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lou_fine]

2 hours ago, Mr bla bla said:

3 hours ago, Wayne-Tec said:

My question is, how many non-millionaire old school collectors value their Action #1s more than they would the tuition of a grandchild’s college education, or more than the cost to own a house? Because that’s the point we are at with some of these books.

I do not believe that the majority of these Action #1 owners (private raw collections) are millionaires. I believe many are/were old school, passionate people who love our hobby and acquired these books before six-figures became entry-level. I also believe many of the people who fit that profile have let their Action #1s out of their collections and cashed in. We’ve seen the census numbers go up.

It would take an extreme level of discipline for a non-super wealthy collector to say no to that incentive and keep their Action #1 raw, in their own private collections. I’m sure it happens, just don’t know how many examples there are of that out there.

Exactly! For that type of collector-profile the incentive to slab is huge.

All I can say is that if I had been lucky enough to have an Action 1 or 'Tec 27 in my personal collection (which I unfortunately do not   ), there is no way I would even consider having it slabbed unless it came time for me to sell it.

But to each their own, I would imagine.  

[jimjum12]

15 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

All I can say is that if I had been lucky enough to have an Action 1 or 'Tec 27 in my personal collection (which I unfortunately do not   ), there is no way I would even consider having it slabbed unless it came time for me to sell it.

But to each their own, I would imagine.  

…. my only deviation from that would be if my copy were fragile and such..... GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[N e r V]

6 hours ago, Wayne-Tec said:

My question is, how many non-millionaire old school collectors value their Action #1s more than they would the tuition of a grandchild’s college education, or more than the cost to own a house? Because that’s the point we are at with some of these books.

I do not believe that the majority of these Action #1 owners (private raw collections) are millionaires. I believe many are/were old school, passionate people who love our hobby and acquired these books before six-figures became entry-level. I also believe many of the people who fit that profile have let their Action #1s out of their collections and cashed in. We’ve seen the census numbers go up.

It would take an extreme level of discipline for a non-super wealthy collector to say no to that incentive and keep their Action #1 raw, in their own private collections. I’m sure it happens, just don’t know how many examples there are of that out there.

Yeah like I said I honestly don’t know. Seriously I live in a city where track homes in my area are inching up closer to a million dollars ($700,000.00+) so it’s not really hard to say you’re a millionaire based on your total wealth out here. I could use the same logic with selling your home and moving into a better house in a cheaper area of the country because I know a lot of people out here that bought their homes in the lower end of hundreds of thousands only to see them at several million today. So I guess it all depends on your place in life and if needing cash for the things you mentioned is something you’d consider. 

 

[Wayne-Tec]

I’m going to use Action Comics #1 as an example, but the same logic can be applied to Detective Comics #27 and, to a lesser extent, Superman #1 and Batman #1.

A few things to consider:

Of the owners holding raw copies of Action Comics #1, what is their average level of wealth?

Are we looking at a 50/50 split between multi-millionaires and more modest collectors? Mostly multi-millionaires? Mostly more modest collectors? The answer, which may be impossible to know, is important.

As it pertains to the incentive to slab, we’ve discussed multiple factors, including protection for the book and desire to sell said book. Some have said: “Why would these old school collectors care 1) about slabbing comics which began decades after they first began collecting and 2) slabbing books that they do not have the desire to sell?

So let’s discuss those two points.

1) While slabbing goes against the desire by many to thumb through a comic book, it is much more likely to be viewed as a negative by those who are not worried about losing many, many thousands of dollars to grade degradation.

Thumbing through a 5.0 copy of a $500 book to the point where it becomes a 4.5 or 4.0 isn’t a very big deal. Turing a 5.0 Action #1 into a 4.5 or 4.0 would be a huge deal. As much as one enjoys thumbing through a comic book, is it so enjoyable that you’d risk a potential six-figure loss? I’m not buying it, though exceptions will always exist.

If you’re a multi-millionaire, such a risk and loss would be easier to bounce back from. But this brings us back to the question of: How wealthy are these raw Action #1 owners? Would someone making 75K, 100K, 150K annually risk an entire year’s salary to thumb through an Action #1? I’m not buying it, though exceptions will always exist.

2) Why slab a book if you have no intention of selling? Well, who is it that has no intention of selling? Multi-millionaires...sure. But I’m skeptical if the implication is that most of these raw Action #1 owners match that profile.

The more logical conclusion, IMO, is that many of the old school collectors loved their Action #1s, but not more than they loved the ability to put 2-3 grandchildren through college. Many of those old school collectors couldn’t resist the temptation any longer and FMV reached a point where the benefit of selling out-weighed the love of collecting.

69 CGC slabbed copies of Action #1 has been enough for us to see a handful come to the market in major auctions almost every year.

My estimate stands at 150-300 copies remaining in existence. If the reality is the lower end of my estimate (150), 54% of the remaining copies in existence remain raw. If the high end of my estimate is correct (300), 77% of all remaining copies in existence remain raw.

What is the likelihood that 77% of all Action #1 copies remain raw and/or sitting in private collections? That’s a stretch, so I think it’s fair to say 300 may be a high number.

[Crowzilla]

14 minutes ago, Wayne-Tec said:

My estimate stands at 150-300 copies remaining in existence. If the reality is the lower end of my estimate (150), 54% of the remaining copies in existence remain raw. If the high end of my estimate is correct (300), 77% of all remaining copies in existence remain raw.

If your low number is correct that means there are only 81 unslabbed copies out there (in collector hands). You think even 40 of those people are multi-millionaires (assuming one copy to a person, which we already know isn't true)? Most likely not.

Just as many of these copies were purchased 20-25-30 or more years ago, one should also think that maybe they put away a few grand in the market for grandkids at that time also. Why is it only an Action 1 that will put grandbaby through college? Is that the sum total of their investments? Most likely not.  Maybe they are selling that VF Amazing Fantasy #15 that they paid $500 bucks for 30 years ago to pay for school. Or that page of Ditko Spider-man art they bought for $50 cause it was so cool.

Collector mentality is tough to break. If you ate months of peanut butter and ramen noodles, while driving a 25-year old car, 30 years ago to buy that Action 1, you are probably going to figure out other ways to get things done financially without having to sell your Action 1. If you loved it that much when you bought it, there is a high chance it will be the last item in your collection to go.

[Wayne-Tec]

1 hour ago, Crowzilla said:

If your low number is correct that means there are only 81 unslabbed copies out there (in collector hands). You think even 40 of those people are multi-millionaires (assuming one copy to a person, which we already know isn't true)? Most likely not.

Just as many of these copies were purchased 20-25-30 or more years ago, one should also think that maybe they put away a few grand in the market for grandkids at that time also. Why is it only an Action 1 that will put grandbaby through college? Is that the sum total of their investments? Most likely not.  Maybe they are selling that VF Amazing Fantasy #15 that they paid $500 bucks for 30 years ago to pay for school. Or that page of Ditko Spider-man art they bought for $50 cause it was so cool.

Collector mentality is tough to break. If you ate months of peanut butter and ramen noodles, while driving a 25-year old car, 30 years ago to buy that Action 1, you are probably going to figure out other ways to get things done financially without having to sell your Action 1. If you loved it that much when you bought it, there is a high chance it will be the last item in your collection to go.

What it took to acquire an Action #1 30 years ago is not what it takes to acquire one now. I don’t think there were a lot of Action #1 buyers living off of Ramen noodles and peanut butter, but who knows.

We seem to be in agreement, that most raw Action #1 owners are not multi-millionaires, correct? If that’s the case, I don’t think devoted old school collector mentality is enough to push away the incentive of FMV. That’s not to say that nobody is keeping their copies BTW. Obviously some are.

But how many? 81 different non-multi-millionaires matching your description and circumstance? 150? 200?

The fact that we’ve only seen 69 copies (40 Universal) slabbed in nearly two decades of slabbing is likely a testament to the actual rarity of the book. Those selling out for an extraordinary amount of money (ridiculous return on investment) are probably likely to outnumber the old school modest collectors who say no to that incentive and hold tight anyway. Just my 2-cents.

[Aman619]

Crowzilla - good points!  Action 1 et al prices from decades ago seem ridiculously cheap today... but 30 years ago, they cost real money too!  So the guys who HAD the cash to buy the best comics then HAD ample funds... and chances are, still do today.  So selling one of them now, one set of many  and one that has done very well -- and continues to do well -- is NOT the first thing to let go of!  The collectors who luckily bought one back then who DIDNT have sufficient means to hold onto them probably sold them long ago, same as modern collectors often jump from grail book to grail book, selling one to buy the next because of limited funds.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Aman619

[Aman619]

Im saying that anyone who needed to sell their Action 1 has had the last 10 years to do so, as prices jumped to 300K (remember when that was a crazy cool sale?) up to a million.. or 6 figures for ANY copy.  If they held onto them through the run up, chances are they don't feel a strong urge to unload now either. 

[N e r V]

I think it becomes a bit of a trap too when you try applying what you think someone else might do based on what might seem logical actions. 

Human beings are messy when it Comes to logic.

My logic which might be faulty as hell was that I’ve been collecting since I was a child in the 1970’s and never owned an Action Comics #1 but have had several opportunities to do so at much lower prices than today in the past have known where a number of raw copies exist outside of CGC’s hands or anyone else’s still today. Yes some are owned by family members and friends and others I was introduced to from being a dealer in the past for about 15 years of my life. 

So maybe I’m a rare case today but really I’ve always assumed (maybe wrongly) that there are probably more than a few other copies out there beyond comic collecting central since I only know a tiny fraction of the total amount of collectors out there.

The GA keys are no doubt in short supply but aside from the random finds in basements which are rare I’m going to stay in the camp that believes they are more raw copies of Action #1 and other keys than the “active” collecting community is aware still raw and still sitting in collections. How many is anyone’s guess but I think most are putting that number to low. Just remember the Church books spent a good 30-40 years unknown and that was by someone who wasn’t really a passionate comic collector like today. My 2 cents...

Edited July 29, 2018 by N e r V

[Pickie]

1 hour ago, Aman619 said:

Im saying that anyone who needed to sell their Action 1 has had the last 10 years to do so, as prices jumped to 300K (remember when that was a crazy cool sale?) up to a million.. or 6 figures for ANY copy.  If they held onto them through the run up, chances are they don't feel a strong urge to unload now either. 

Very true, I think. How many millions more and how much more publicity do you need to pull an AC1 from a long-time collection? None. It's not a matter of growing value any more, I think. One has surpassed that point already. The books in question won't come along until the owners decide to give them up for another reason and many will leave that to their heirs, I think. 

[tth2]

4 hours ago, Aman619 said:

Im saying that anyone who needed to sell their Action 1 has had the last 10 years to do so, as prices jumped to 300K (remember when that was a crazy cool sale?) up to a million.. or 6 figures for ANY copy.  If they held onto them through the run up, chances are they don't feel a strong urge to unload now either. 

Don't forget that if there's one thing collectors have learned over these many decades is that prices always go up for Action 1 and Detective 27.  So assuming that the vast majority of owners are seasoned and knowledgeable collectors, there's always the fear that if they sell now, even if it's for life changing money, it'll be worth even more in another year.  So if there's no pressure to sell, why not just hold on?

[Chicago Boy]

What is it about AC 1 and Tec 27 that make them so rare compared to their contemporaries ?  Is it as simple as 1938 and 1939 and the start of the hero craze ??

[G.A.tor]

Every owner of action 1 I know is well enough off (their needs are met level, not Harari level) that they don’t need to sell

the presumably best known example (church) is in a fortress and not slabbed 

the need for this younger slab generation to apply their standards to other collectors is the logic flaw. When one really thinks about the aggregate that less than , say 4 million Comics are slabbed out of the well more than 10,000,000,000 that are highly likely to still exist , the argument becomes moot (imo)