Nightmare situation with eBayer / PGX 3 3

[Jordysnordy]

On ‎8‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 11:18 PM, www.alexgross.com said:

what should the ebay seller say? do you think he knew the book was missing pages and that PGX was so lame that they'd probably not notice if he sent it to them for grading? most likely the seller simply sold a 'graded' book and now is being told his graded book was wrong. i'm sure the seller won't be too helpful, but it's not up to him. as you said, paypal buyer protection should help in this case. and as kav said earlier, don't buy PGX, ever. 

I haven't read all 14 pages of this thread so this may be addressed later on in the thread - maybe the seller did submit the book to PGX knowing full well it was missing pages and hoped for them missing it due to their sloppy practices? No way to ever prove this though.

[VintageComics]

1 minute ago, seanfingh said:

This is from PGX's website - it is notably silent about errors relating to completeness of the book, probably because in many jurisdictions it violates contract jurisprudence to attempt to negotiate away your liability for negligence prior to undertaking the services for which you are being paid.

PGX’s grading is based on the PGX Grading Standards developed by PGX and the opinions of the PGX Grading Team and does not guarantee complete acceptance in the marketplace. The assigned grade represents our opinion, as grading can be subjective. A restoration check is made on every book that comes through PGX. Every effort is made to detect restoration, but we do not guarantee the result.

And yet, while completeness is not included in their legalese it's no doubt expected to be a part of their standards.

Interesting.

[Artboy99]

Just now, VintageComics said:

And yet, while completeness is not included in their legalese it's no doubt expected to be a part of their standards.

Interesting.

agreed

[Artboy99]

1 minute ago, Jordysnordy said:

I haven't read all 14 pages of this thread so this may be addressed later on in the thread - maybe the seller did submit the book to PGX knowing full well it was missing pages and hoped for them missing it due to their sloppy practices? No way to ever prove this though.

and for all we know the seller submitted the book knowing the pages were missing, and paid PGX extra money to encapsulate it as if it was a complete book.

Cant prove that though.

Nor can we prove that the seller isn't the 10th person to own the PGX slab and unfortunately sold it to someone who in good faith paid for it, hoping to then send it to CGC to get a nice blue label.

[thunsicker]

2 hours ago, Number 6 said:

That raises an interesting point:

On the one hand we argue that buyers should treat PGX like buying a raw comic. 

On the other hand, we argue that seller’s should be able to treat PGX like any other 3rd party graded book - Buyer is buying “piece of mind” therefore seller get’s to wash his hands once book is delivered. 

According to some PGX grading gives sellers cover while not giving peace of mind that the comic has been properly inspected.  As such PGX should go for a significant discount to raw.

[Number 6]

Had to break off my previous post to take the wife’s car to the dealership. 

As I was saying:

Since I don’t buy or sell PGX, and since (without sounding like a kool-aid drinker) I think CGC is pretty good at the 3rd part authentication thing, I don’t see this scenario actually coming up for me. 

Nevertheless, I see the merits of the principle. 

What if someone bought a CGC book from me, cracked it out and found something materially wrong that CGC missed?  I think that scenario is highly unlikely but I’ll engage in the hypothetical:

If a buyer contacted me about a book that CGC missed an OBJECTIVE defect (NOT a SUBJECTIVE grading disagreement) and they had documentation (they have to PROVE to me it’s the same book) then yes, I would accept the return. If the value of the book was significant, then I would start working my way back through the ownership chain. 

What if the roles were reversed and I was the buyer of the CGC book in question? Well, since I’m pretty confident that CGC doesn’t make these kinds of objective mistakes, I probably wouldn’t be filming when I opened the slab so I would probably lack the documentation to make my case with the seller ( I think this is the spot the OP is in)

I feel the need to clarify because some have expressed the concern that adopting this principle could pose a threat to the health of 3rd party grading. 

I don’t see that being the case. 

This started as a discussion of how a seller should handle an serious omission in a PGX book. I understand why some would view adopting the stance of the seller assuming responsibility could be taken as one that applies to all 3rd party grading. But again, since CGC is very good at what they do and the likelyhood that this would arise with a CGC book is slim, I don’t see that as a serious concern. 

Likewise, I understand why some would view a seller accepting a return on a cracked slab for and objective defect as a “slippery slope” that would open the door for buyers trying to force returns for subjective grade disagreements. Since there’s a demonstrable difference between a missed objective defect and subjective grade disagreement, I think that could be easily shut down. It might impact sales of slabs on the Bay, but I think overall the 3rd party grading market would be fine. 

Edited August 10, 2018 by Number 6

[Callaway29]

2 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I do find it fascinating how easy people find it to tell the buyer to suck up a couple thousand dollar loss, when....provided the buyer did what he claimed (and, as usual, the buyer hasn't come back to the thread that I've seen) is accurate...the buyer didn't do anything wrong, and several things right, such as sending it to an independent appraiser to determine if the original appraisal was relatively accurate (since grading...not pages missing...is subjective.)

 

I'm empathetic, hence why I wrote a portion of my statement as if I were in his shoes. It would suck, totally. I would be pissed, totally. But I would still "suck it up", totally.

A counterpoint could be made that it's fascinating how easy people find it to tell the seller to suck up a couple thousand dollars. He would be getting screwed equally. The difference is he didn't actively seek out discovery...which could have resulted in an increase, or decrease, in the book's fair market value.

If your rationale were universally adopted, heck...I'd run out and buy every discounted PGX book on the market, crack, submit, and keep the one's that came back same or higher grade, and pursue a refund for the one's that came back lower. Because, well...it wasn't as advertised... The same logic could be applied to CGC's that are resubmitted as well...it isn't logical. ***Yes, I understand the book was missing pages, but you can't pick and choose which physical conditions and attributes you deem relevant, it's all or nothing.***

Additionally, when this occurs, and this methodology applied, is the expectation that every second-hand owner of this book receive a refund from the person they bought it from? Like a domino effect...? That isn't practical...

I've officially reached my saturation point with the topic.  At the end of the day, I understand the opposing points, perspectives, and opinions. I simply disagree...

[Bomber-Bob]

Has anyone noticed the OP has not come back to this thread at all ? With all this debate it would be interesting to hear more facts from him. For all we know he may not be initiating any claims.

[BlowUpTheMoon]

I've read the entire thread and haven't seen this mentioned:

Would a CVA sticker help increase the value of the slab? 

Edited August 10, 2018 by BlowUpTheMoon
greggy is a dork

[Number 6]

27 minutes ago, thunsicker said:

According to some PGX grading gives sellers cover while not giving peace of mind that the comic has been properly inspected.  As such PGX should go for a significant discount to raw.

Agreed. Since the PGX slab prevents examination while affording the seller the implied protections of offering a 3rd party graded book, PGX books shouldn’t be viewed as “like buying raw; they should be viewed as WORSE than buying raw. 

[Number 6]

3 minutes ago, BlowUpTheMoon said:

I've read the entire thread and haven't seen this mentioned:

Would a CVA sticker help increased the value of the slab? 

If the CVA sticker is big enough to cover the green label maybe. 

[Lazyboy]

20 minutes ago, Callaway29 said:

I'm empathetic, hence why I wrote a portion of my statement as if I were in his shoes. It would suck, totally. I would be pissed, totally. But I would still "suck it up", totally.

A counterpoint could be made that it's fascinating how easy people find it to tell the seller to suck up a couple thousand dollars. He would be getting screwed equally. The difference is he didn't actively seek out discovery...which could have resulted in an increase, or decrease, in the book's fair market value.

If your rationale were universally adopted, heck...I'd run out and buy every discounted PGX book on the market, crack, submit, and keep the one's that came back same or higher grade, and pursue a refund for the one's that came back lower. Because, well...it wasn't as advertised... The same logic could be applied to CGC's that are resubmitted as well...it isn't logical. ***Yes, I understand the book was missing pages, but you can't pick and choose which physical conditions and attributes you deem relevant, it's all or nothing.***

Additionally, when this occurs, and this methodology applied, is the expectation that every second-hand owner of this book receive a refund from the person they bought it from? Like a domino effect...? That isn't practical...

I've officially reached my saturation point with the topic.  At the end of the day, I understand the opposing points, perspectives, and opinions. I simply disagree...

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/objective

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/subjective

 

Also, the seller isn't sucking up anything. The book never had value equal to what they received. Plus, they have the same option of going to the person who sold the book to them.

[Park]

5 minutes ago, BlowUpTheMoon said:

I've read the entire thread and haven't seen this mentioned:

Would a CVA sticker help increased the value of the slab? 

No but I think it more than makes up for the 2 missing pages.

Good call, Blowie.

[SteppinRazor]

17 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Let's entertain that idea for a second: PGX is 100% to blame. 

So, is PGX...or any grading company....therefore responsible for the difference in value, because they made a mistake (let's assume it was a mistake, and not just gross negligence)...?

If the book had two pages missing when it was subbed to PGX...and it probably did...who is the one who benefitted from the difference in value for that mistake? The submitter/seller? Or PGX?

The submitter, obviously. 

Perhaps this is the root of the flaw in your thinking.  How do you know who the submitter is?  It may be the seller in this case, it may not be.

Second, why should benefit have anything to do with the responsibility of an error?  Get in a car accident and no one benefits, but someone pays for their mistake.

17 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

So what court on earth would hold an appraiser responsible for the difference in value, based on an appraising mistake of its condition...? Keep in mind...these appraisals are NOT monetary...they are strictly condition appraisals. PGX and other grading companies are not assigning a FMV for which they can then be held liable. They are only assigning an opinion as to the condition of the item. How the market then values those items is not their concern. In fact, CGC used to have some verbiage expressly disclaiming market value in their terms, but I can't find it. Basically, it said how the market valued the item wasn't up to them, and they couldn't be held responsible for any of that. 

"But, because of that mistake, the item has the appearance of being more valuable than it actually is!" 

Granted.

PGX would not be responsible for the difference in value between a book with missing pages and a book with no missing pages.  PGX would be responsible for failure to perform the task for which they offer in exchange for money.  Should there be a court case, one would sue for punitive damages and fraudulent appraisal.  So you are arguing the wrong thing.

17 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

But the reality is, that value isn't real, because the book was never actually in the condition the label claimed, because of human error. 

"What do you mean, that value isn't real? Somebody...maybe several somebodies...paid it! That MAKES it real!" 

No. That value was based on an erroneous perception which, while unknown, was ALWAYS erroneous.

That someone would pay an amount higher for a slabbed book than raw, and therefore there is a real value added, is indisputable. Though as above, I pointed out that the market rate for a PGX slab (or a slab) is not what they are responsible for.  They are responsible for either fraud or failing to provide the service for which they exist to provide.

17 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

So you have to look at who benefited from the mistake. PGX? No, they were just paid their standard grading fee.

The person who benefited from this error...and the person who has to give back that benefit when the error is discovered...is the submitter/seller.

And that is what the law calls "unjust enrichment": benefitting at the expense of another. CGC has taken the position....and perhaps set a bad precedent...of taking responsibility for these mistakes on their part when they have occurred, but nevertheless, the one who received the unjust enrichment...whether they were aware of it or not...is ultimately the party who is responsible for paying it back. 

Thankfully, at least with CGC, it's so rare, it's of little concern. And I imagine CGC is very diligent about that for precisely that reason.

Again, no one has to benefit for someone to be repsonible for their mistake.  And again, you don't know the seller was the submitter.  If he/she was, then he/she possibly acted in bad faith, and at the least failed to do their own due diligence, but that PGX acted in bad faith or incompetence is unassailable.  They were specifically hired to evaluate the condition of the comic book, and they failed to do so.

17 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I've explained, in detail, why the analogy doesn't work, including details such as the "mystery factor" and the "resealable factor", which you chose not to address. We weren't discussing an empty "yet sealed" pack, so I agree, that's irrelevant to the discussion.

Slabs, in and of themselves, have no value. Try and sell a slab that once contained an Action Comics #1, and see what you get for it.

You are operating under the same erroneous perception that much of the slabbed market operates under: that it is the SLAB that makes the comic "valuable." I understand why you would think that, because it's tempting and easy to do so. Nevertheless, it is not an accurate way of regarding a slabbed book. What makes the package valuable is the comic. Remove that comic from the slab, and that slab has no value. Put that comic BACK into a slab, and...provided nothing has changed otherwise...the value of that comic is the same as it was in the previous slab. 

The value, then, that the slab "adds" is INTANGIBLE. The value is for the OPINION that comes with the slab, not the slab itself. But that opinion doesn't materially change the book. It only convinces buyers to be willing to pay more for it. The book is what it is, in the condition that it is. That's where all the REAL, ACTUAL value lies. All CGC does is confirm that "yes, that book is Comic Book Z #13, and we think it's in this condition." That's it. They confirm what already is. They don't actually add anything to the item. And if they add nothing to it, then no, the slab does not have value in and of itself.

I did not choose not to address the 'mystery factor' and 'resealable factor', they aren't relevant to the analogy.  Why the card pack is worth whatever isn't the argument or analogy.  The fact that you cannot verify its contents without destroying the package (you can't crack a slab and reslab the comic in that same slab, and can't reslab for free) and its additive value for whatever reason, is the analogy.

I, and the market, am not operating under any erroneous perception.  A slab provides physical security for the comic, people in the market value that.  The slab ensures the comic within is the very comic that was appraised.  People in the market value that.  The slab includes the grade.  People value that.  Those values is absolutely real, and they are demonstrably present and reflected in the market.

17 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

And you are incorrect that a deslabbed books is only worth what an equivalent "raw" book is worth. I have bought, and sold, books that were cracked out of slabs, but which had their labels present. These were, once again, raw books, but with the added feature of having been graded by CGC at one point (depending on whether or not I trust the provenance presented.) Those books did not revert back to their "original raw" value...on the contrary, they sold for a slight discount off of a slabbed copy in the same grade.

Why?

Because the value is in the COMIC, not the slab, and the acceptance of an OPINION, which is INTANGIBLE, and does not necessarily become void merely because that book is no longer in a slab.

And, after all, in this case...the PGX label didn't vanish into thin air, did it...?

Interesting anecdote.  If a random ebay seller offered a comic and a label and claimed the latter was for the former, would you pay a premium over raw?

[kav]

Don't buy PGX, folks.

[Lazyboy]

32 minutes ago, Number 6 said:

Well, since I’m pretty confident that CGC doesn’t make these kinds of objective mistakes

Except in the case of indies with multiple printings. They've had a lot of problems with that.

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/242463-ninja-turtles-differences-between-printings/

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/166562-albedo-volume-1-nr2/?page=4

CGC may be more likely than PGX to take responsibility, but if they don't, then what?

[The Lions Den]

4 hours ago, VintageComics said:

There's very little good will in commerce and capitalism. 

Truth!

[AJD]

1 hour ago, Number 6 said:

Since I don’t buy or sell PGX, and since (without sounding like a kool-aid drinker) I think CGC is pretty good at the 3rd part authentication thing, I don’t see this scenario actually coming up for me. 

 

Don't be so sure. While not in the same category as the OP's loss, I bought a green label 6.5 apparent GA book with the annotation COUPON CLIPPED from Heritage. The eye appeal was great and the price was right, and I could live with a missing coupon on a non-story page. Twelve months later I cracked it out, to find that it should have read PANEL CLIPPED - AFFECTS STORY. I think the book is worth less in the eyes of the market in that state. But I don't think I can reasonably go after Heritage, who were likely the consignees in this case. How far up the chain of ownership could I go for redress? In my opinion I have to do what I did - suck it up and discount CGC's opinion a little in future.

[Lazyboy]

2 hours ago, Artboy99 said:

You cant prove the seller tore the pages out either. Nor can you prove he knowingly sold a book without pages.

Completely irrelevant. That would only matter if you were trying to make them face legal consequences rather than just accept a return.

[Number 6]

35 minutes ago, AJD said:

Don't be so sure. While not in the same category as the OP's loss, I bought a green label 6.5 apparent GA book with the annotation COUPON CLIPPED from Heritage. The eye appeal was great and the price was right, and I could live with a missing coupon on a non-story page. Twelve months later I cracked it out, to find that it should have read PANEL CLIPPED - AFFECTS STORY. I think the book is worth less in the eyes of the market in that state. But I don't think I can reasonably go after Heritage, who were likely the consignees in this case. How far up the chain of ownership could I go for redress? In my opinion I have to do what I did - suck it up and discount CGC's opinion a little in future.

Again, I think the problem is I keep inserting myself into my comments which limits my viewpoint. 

I don’t collect independents. And I don’t buy books with clipped coupons. I understand why some do, I don’t. So the “for me” part of the sentence you quoted becomes the operating qualifier: since I personally don’t collect books with clipped coupons, the fact they caught the missing coupon is good enough...for me. 

But don’t misunderstand: I don’t mean to sound unsympathetic, flippant or dismissive of your issue. It’s a completely legitimate  grievance. 

Because what I collect is pretty mainstream, low-value fair, I see CGC missing something like a clipped coupon (or mischaractorizing it) as far less likely than PGX. 

But I want to be clear: that doesn’t mean I think it’s impossible for CGC to make that kind of mistake. Not at all. Your point as well as Lazyboy’s is taken. 

I simply admitting my confidence in CGC is probably going to prevent me from doing the kind of documentation necessary if in the event something was missed. Thus, having no real recourse with the seller.

By no means do I think CGC is infallible. 

Edited August 10, 2018 by Number 6