Who is WC Holt, Jr? 2 2

[FastEddie52]

Over the past 40+ years I've owned a number of books with the VERY large stamp of WC Holt, Jr right across the middle of the front cover.  Recently i've encountered some of them as part of the Cosmic Aeroplane collection, too.  Who is WC Holt, and did this person have some kind of affiliation with the Cosmic Aeroplane bookstore??

[Aaron in Portland]

I, too, have a couple Cosmic issues that have the W.C. Holt, Jr. stamp on them. I've been wondering, myself!  I'm also curious how much such a stamp devalues the comic.

[sfcityduck]

On 11/30/2018 at 6:52 PM, FastEddie52 said:

Over the past 40+ years I've owned a number of books with the VERY large stamp of WC Holt, Jr right across the middle of the front cover.  Recently i've encountered some of them as part of the Cosmic Aeroplane collection, too.  Who is WC Holt, and did this person have some kind of affiliation with the Cosmic Aeroplane bookstore??

 

On 9/21/2022 at 10:09 PM, Aaron in Portland said:

I, too, have a couple Cosmic issues that have the W.C. Holt, Jr. stamp on them. I've been wondering, myself!  I'm also curious how much such a stamp devalues the comic.

Just any FYI as this came up on the Cosmic Aeroplane thread posted this week.  My analysis (as set forth on that other thread):

Quote

 

That "W.C. HOLT JR." stamp is on a number of Cosmic Aeroplane books.  Worth noting then that William C. Holt Jr. of Salt Lake City, Utah passed away on August 30, 1971 at the age of 56.  I don't know if he was an art teacher, but he's the right age to have been buying the Cosmic Aeroplane books starting in the 1930s for use in his classes and he died at the right time for his collection to have been sold to the Cosmic Aeroplane shop in 1972. I still call "Church" books "Mile Highs," but in the interest of consistency maybe CGC should call this the Cosmic Aeroplane/William C. Holt Jr. pedigree. 

Interesting to know if there's any sort of WWII gap in the collection.  

 

 

[sfcityduck]

Makes me wonder if the comics were being printed in Utah.  I agree the “art teacher” story could have been misdirection.  

Interesting that the first “recognized” pedigree was bought and came to market in 1977 whereas the second was bought and came to market in 1972.  Reinforces that Chuck invented the concept and suggest what allowed the Cosmic Aeroplane books to become a pedigree was the check marks.  Are there any other pedigrees that came to market before 1977?

The irony is a lot of old time collectors bought groups of comics from or traceable to the OO - like BZ’s Gilchrist books - bought prior to 1977 and still kept as a group.  But the concept of a “pedigree” had not been invented yet.  The stories are endless - Bill Placzek (spelling?) said over on the Wigransky thread that the core of his 27,000 book collection (as of 1965) had come from a “huge collection” his dad bought for him.

Guys on this site have mentioned their “personal pedigrees”.  Makes you realize that if the Church books had come to market in 1967 ten years earlier they would have been dispersed like Wigransky and so many others huge collections.

The next GA “pedigrees” to come to market IMHO are going to be the “personal pedigrees” that have been sitting in collections since the 60s or 70s.

 

 

[PopKulture]

On 3/2/2023 at 3:13 AM, Professor K said:

It's grim I know but on his DC it states occupation as pressman, printer. Employer - Litho Graphics. If he was the original owner of the Cosmic A collection he could have been retired from teaching by then, even though that's young to be retired. Maybe also the art teacher story isn't even true. Or teaching art wasn't his main occupation. Or possibly he used his old comics as teaching material at some point. The ww 2 gap is a good point, I don't think there is a gap but not sure. . This has a picture of his dc and to the right pictures of the 1930 and 1940 census's https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/LV5P-29N/william-clark-holt-jr.-1915-1971

I looked up Litho Graphics in Utah. Founded in 1967 in Sandy Utah very near Salt Lake. Would make sense for a retired art teacher or a comic collector to work in that field. This is probably where he worked at the time of his passing.  

https://www.bbb.org/us/ut/sandy/profile/lithographer/lithoflexo-grafics-inc-1166-85120011

Something strange is on the pictures of the 1930 and 1940 census's they both say William Holt (Sr) occupation pressman as well. But that's his father. On the 1940 census William C Holt Jr , son, age 25, occupation -  Clerk (at printing something). So in 1940 at the time the CA pedigree was being purchased he was a clerk(at a printing business?) 

I'll leave it there just wish I could have found something that says he was a teacher. 

And while I'm here here's mine again

Man, that is a really nice looking 4.5 you have there! 

And since when did they drop the “classic cover” designation on this book?? This had been known as a classic since before the term was invented, along with Superman 14, More Fun 54, and Target 7. 

[Professor K]

On 3/2/2023 at 10:59 AM, sfcityduck said:

Makes me wonder if the comics were being printed in Utah.  I agree the “art teacher” story could have been misdirection.  

Interesting that the first “recognized” pedigree was bought and came to market in 1977 whereas the second was bought and came to market in 1972.  Reinforces that Chuck invented the concept and suggest what allowed the Cosmic Aeroplane books to become a pedigree was the check marks.  Are there any other pedigrees that came to market before 1977?

The irony is a lot of old time collectors bought groups of comics from or traceable to the OO - like BZ’s Gilchrist books - bought prior to 1977 and still kept as a group.  But the concept of a “pedigree” had not been invented yet.  The stories are endless - Bill Placzek (spelling?) said over on the Wigransky thread that the core of his 27,000 book collection (as of 1965) had come from a “huge collection” his dad bought for him.

Guys on this site have mentioned their “personal pedigrees”.  Makes you realize that if the Church books had come to market in 1967 ten years earlier they would have been dispersed like Wigransky and so many others huge collections.

The next GA “pedigrees” to come to market IMHO are going to be the “personal pedigrees” that have been sitting in collections since the 60s or 70s.

 

 

That's interesting. I hadn't thought of that. So you're thinking maybe the printing company where W.C. worked  in the 30's and 40's and after the war may have been in the comic printing business? That's possible I guess. It would make sense. If so he maybe have just taken home one for himself the whole time and at some point he got a neat stamp with his name on it and stamped a few.

Imagine working at a comic printers who printed comics back then? I think I'll take a few of these Batman 1's home, maybe they'll be worth something someday. 

[Sarg]

Can anyone post a photo of the name stamp?

[C. Spaulding]

On 3/2/2023 at 9:31 PM, Sarg said:

Can anyone post a photo of the name stamp?

 

[Telegan]

On 3/2/2023 at 12:14 AM, sfcityduck said:

 

Just any FYI as this came up on the Cosmic Aeroplane thread posted this week.  My analysis (as set forth on that other thread):

 

I haven't been following along much until today, so out of curiosity, do we know the first name is "William" or is that just a hunch based upon the deceased person in Utah?  Is there some connection in the history/research between the "W.C. Holt, Jr." and the first name being "William"?  I'm not saying you're wrong - I honestly don't know.

I did some brief searching around and managed to find one of the former Cosmic Aeroplane employees' names in an article about the store and its history.  The employee apparently worked there in 1979 as a 19 year old.  He also was/is a musician who was in a band.  In one of the pics in that article, it said he performed (?) at some point with his friend...... "William Holt".  Could be one hell of a coincidence and it's him or maybe he's a descendant of the "W.C. Holt, Jr." in the stamp.  There are/were a few William Holts in Utah, that's for sure.

In any case, I found the former employee's music site and messaged him asking him whether his friend may be the stamper, is a relation to the stamper, or had any connection to comic books.  There's no telling if he'll graciously respond or think I'm a weirdo.  I'm hoping for the former but won't be offended if I get the former and he still thinks the latter. lol.

[sfcityduck]

On 3/3/2023 at 12:36 AM, Telegan said:

I haven't been following along much until today, so out of curiosity, do we know the first name is "William" or is that just a hunch based upon the deceased person in Utah?  Is there some connection in the history/research between the "W.C. Holt, Jr." and the first name being "William"?  I'm not saying you're wrong - I honestly don't know.

I did some brief searching around and managed to find one of the former Cosmic Aeroplane employees' names in an article about the store and its history.  The employee apparently worked there in 1979 as a 19 year old.  He also was/is a musician who was in a band.  In one of the pics in that article, it said he performed (?) at some point with his friend...... "William Holt".  Could be one hell of a coincidence and it's him or maybe he's a descendant of the "W.C. Holt, Jr." in the stamp.  There are/were a few William Holts in Utah, that's for sure.

In any case, I found the former employee's music site and messaged him asking him whether his friend may be the stamper, is a relation to the stamper, or had any connection to comic books.  There's no telling if he'll graciously respond or think I'm a weirdo.  I'm hoping for the former but won't be offended if I get the former and he still thinks the latter. lol.

Cannot wait for the response! I ran searches for Williams and Walters C.Holt Jr.’s and came up with a candidate with the right birth and death dates to make sense of the chronology.  The books were bought by CA in 1972, so your guy might be a little young to know the answers.

I could be wrong.  Took me three attempts to nail down the Promise OO.

Edited March 3, 2023 by sfcityduck

[Professor K]

On 3/3/2023 at 3:36 AM, Telegan said:

I haven't been following along much until today, so out of curiosity, do we know the first name is "William" or is that just a hunch based upon the deceased person in Utah?  Is there some connection in the history/research between the "W.C. Holt, Jr." and the first name being "William"?  I'm not saying you're wrong - I honestly don't know.

I did some brief searching around and managed to find one of the former Cosmic Aeroplane employees' names in an article about the store and its history.  The employee apparently worked there in 1979 as a 19 year old.  He also was/is a musician who was in a band.  In one of the pics in that article, it said he performed (?) at some point with his friend...... "William Holt".  Could be one hell of a coincidence and it's him or maybe he's a descendant of the "W.C. Holt, Jr." in the stamp.  There are/were a few William Holts in Utah, that's for sure.

In any case, I found the former employee's music site and messaged him asking him whether his friend may be the stamper, is a relation to the stamper, or had any connection to comic books.  There's no telling if he'll graciously respond or think I'm a weirdo.  I'm hoping for the former but won't be offended if I get the former and he still thinks the latter. lol.

Awesome! So if the Cosmic employee had a friend named William Holt like you said that would be one humdinger of a coincidence. Hope he responds. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Professor K
spelling correction

[Professor K]

On 3/3/2023 at 4:50 AM, sfcityduck said:

Cannot wait for the response! I ran searches for Williams and Walters C.Holt Jr.’s and came up with a candidate with the right birth and death dates to make sense of the chronology.  The books were bought by CA in 1972, so your guy might be a little young to know the answers.

I could be wrong.  Took me three attempts to nail down the Promise OO.

Hey SF. So the collection was bought by CA in 72. But do we know how they were sold after that? Maybe all at once or maybe even circa 79 CA still had some amount of them. If so maybe the new William Holt got his hands on some. 

[sfcityduck]

On 3/3/2023 at 5:50 AM, Professor K said:

Hey SF. So the collection was bought by CA in 72. But do we know how they were sold after that? Maybe all at once or maybe even circa 79 CA still had some amount of them. If so maybe the new William Holt got his hands on some. 

Anything is possible.  I have comics stamped by collectors back in the 1960s. 
 

I would like to know the dates of the comics on which the stamp appears.  If it is a narrow range that suggests an OO stamp and if a broad range a collector’s stamp.  The comic pictured in the recent threads is 1945, I think.

[sfcityduck]

We may have a source for an answer.  Read this:

https://cosmicaeroplane.wordpress.com/2015/03/01/cosmic-aeroplane-comic-books-vol-i/

Pertinent info:

Quote

 

THE COSMIC AEROPLANE COLLECTION OF GOLDEN AGE COMICS
(By Par Holman)

While working at the Cosmic Aeroplane from 1976-1981 I was entrusted with grading and pricing what became known in the comic book world as the Cosmic Aeroplane collection. Comics from this collection still show up for sale and auction and can be identified by penciled checkmarks accompanied by a number, in the page margins. The checkmarks usually indicate panels that feature sexy women or pieces of fantastic, science-fiction equipment.

Over the years I have read speculation from some Golden Age collectors as to the significance of the numbers and checkmarks. The consensus is some nonsense that the comics were part of an art service, which marked the books so their artists could re-draw the panels. This is what the checkmarks in the Cosmic Aeroplane Collection really signify: the original owner of the comics would check off panels he wanted to trace (crudely) in pencil on pieces of tracing paper. We took all of the tracing paper out of the comics before listing them for sale.

I didn’t have anything to do with the acquisition of the collection, but my recollection is that Ken Sanders, one of the partners in the store, was approached by a woman who had old comics to sell. She explained that they had been bought by her late brother. He had gone to By’s Magazine Shop in downtown Salt Lake City every Saturday from 1939 to 1961 to buy the new comics. He kept them in an old trunk, which preserved them in their pristine condition.

I also made ads to sell the comics, which ran in a tabloid-sized publication called The Buyer’s Guide for Comics Fandom. In those pre-computer days I did all the mechanicals by using my electric typewriter to type lists on our store stationery. If there was room left on the page I might draw a cartoon or two. We used the Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide to set our prices. There was a problem with Overstreet’s book. It was available to anyone, and it caused some problems with us when people wanted to sell their comics to us.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

All of the W.C. Holt Jr. stamped Cosmic Aeroplane books I see on Heritage date to 1944-1945.  This may have something to do with W.C. Holt Jr.'s WWII service.  It strongly suggests to me that it is an OO stamp by W.C. Holt Jr. or his sister or other family member was applied when the comics were purchased, not a collector's stamp (which would have been weird back in the mid-1970s given how big the stamp was).

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by sfcityduck

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

In answer to the thread question....

W.C.Holt Jr. is W.C Holt Snr's son.

YW.

[sfcityduck]

On 3/3/2023 at 8:19 AM, sfcityduck said:

All of the W.C. Holt Jr. stamped Cosmic Aeroplane books I see on Heritage date to 1944-1945.  This may have something to do with W.C. Holt Jr.'s WWII service.  It strongly suggests to me that it is an OO stamp by W.C. Holt Jr. or his sister or other family member applied when the comics were purchased, not a collector's stamp (which would have been weird back in the mid-1970s given how big the stamp was).

 

There is also a William Craig Holt in Utah who was married in 1984.  Could be a son or other relative or maybe just a coincidence - but likely the band member referenced up thread?

[Telegan]

FYI : The employee's friend "William Holt" is probably not the W.C Holt, Jr.  After researching and hunting down more info that I think may be 75-80% accurate, I think the friend has the middle initial of "L."   Still could be a relative - who knows, but like I said, this is all assuming the "W" stood for "William" and even then, "William Holt" would be a common name.

Oddly/coincidentally enough, if the person I found is the friend, they listed Neil Gaiman as a favorite writer a few years ago.  *cue suspense music*.  But again, this is all assuming I didn't get thrown off track and find the wrong person.  lol.

@sfcityduck, I'll forward some more info (via a message) a bit later for you to use, if it helps any.