PGM-Tales of Suspense #59(Subscription Crease) 0

[billbrown7080]

Hey Hoping to get some Opinions on The Grade of this book.

Its got a Subscription Crease and I'm not sure how to grade it.

I've read SC's usually knock a book down to VG...But I've seen plenty of examples of CGC graded books on Ebay graded in the 5.0 to 5.5 range with SC's...

any input would be great

thanks

[evilskip]

I used to grade a decent book with a sub crease as a 4.0. But after trading with MCS the past decade, they don't grade them any higher than a 3.0. Not sure what CGC would do.

[Kromak]

Two of my sources mention that subscription creases are allowed in the fine range. The light background (light blue and yellow) really helps to hide it, so on these photos, it's barely perceptible, except the red portions. Since I expect it to be somewhat more noticeable in Real World, I guess 5.5-6.0. Would be around 6.5 if the crease was as tenuous as it appears in these photos

[marvelmaniac]

From what i can see by the pics posted without the subscription crease I would grade this book at a FN+ 6.5 - FN/VF 7.0.

My stance (which does not mean much) on a subscription crease is that it is part of history and the history of the book.

A subscription crease is/was not caused by normal wear and tear from reading/storing such as spine stress, tears, rusty staples, blunted/creased corners, etc and IMO you cannot punish a books grade due to history.

IMO the subscription crease adds "class" to the book, you know where it came from and it should not be treated any differently than distributor ink or stamped/printed arrival dates which are also parts of history.

From what i understand CGC is changing it's stance on "Marvel Chipping" since that is a "Printing/Bindery" defect from the time (HISTORY) and they should change their stance on subscription creases. 

[Bomber-Bob]

11 minutes ago, marvelmaniac said:

From what i can see by the pics posted without the subscription crease I would grade this book at a FN+ 6.5 - FN/VF 7.0.

My stance (which does not mean much) on a subscription crease is that it is part of history and the history of the book.

A subscription crease is/was not caused by normal wear and tear from reading/storing such as spine stress, tears, rusty staples, blunted/creased corners, etc and IMO you cannot punish a books grade due to history.

IMO the subscription crease adds "class" to the book, you know where it came from and it should not be treated any differently than distributor ink or stamped/printed arrival dates which are also parts of history.

From what i understand CGC is changing it's stance on "Marvel Chipping" since that is a "Printing/Bindery" defect from the time (HISTORY) and they should change their stance on subscription creases. 

Sorry but I totally disagree with you. The crease is not original to the book and really does not add any 'history' or 'class' to it. I have no idea where you came up with the claim that CGC is changing their stance on Marvel Chipping ? Not true. They may be a little more lenient on MC but it is still a flaw, still missing pieces. Bill's book is, at best, a 5.5, IMO, probably 5.0 . The crease is very deep, it will not be treated lightly by CGC.  

[The Lions Den]

4 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Sorry but I totally disagree with you. The crease is not original to the book and really does not add any 'history' or 'class' to it. I have no idea where you came up with the claim that CGC is changing their stance on Marvel Chipping ? Not true. They may be a little more lenient on MC but it is still a flaw, still missing pieces. Bill's book is, at best, a 5.5, IMO, probably 5.0 . The crease is very deep, it will not be treated lightly by CGC.  

Bob, this is one of those books where the severity of the crease should come into play. I agree completely with your assessment---CGC will not assign any historical relevance to this crease other than a fleeting smile on the face of the grader because this is a common flaw they've undoubtedly seen many times before. I would grade this book no higher than 5.0. 

[Ahsoka Tano Jedi Apprentice]

4.0

[Bomber-Bob]

1 hour ago, Ahsoka Tano Jedi Apprentice said:

4.0

You're my favorite grader ! Seriously, I like the way you grade. I wish CGC was as strict.

[Bomber-Bob]

2 hours ago, The Lions Den said:

Bob, this is one of those books where the severity of the crease should come into play. I agree completely with your assessment---CGC will not assign any historical relevance to this crease other than a fleeting smile on the face of the grader because this is a common flaw they've undoubtedly seen many times before. I would grade this book no higher than 5.0. 

Thanks Lion. Good to hear confirmation on my assessment. Can I also assume that his claim about CGC  'changing their stance on Marvel Chipping' is fake news ?

[billbrown7080]

thanks everyone for the input...I got the answers I was looking for..

[makeminemego]

The book would most likely return with a @5.0 grade from CGC, at least in my experience of submitting/buying books with sub creases.

Many respected dealers would likely grade the book at @5.0, at least in my experience buying books with sub creases.

It's @5.0.  The days of sub crease books having a ceiling of 4.0, which seemed to be the standard of yesteryear.......that ship has sailed.  It seems that sub creases really aren't treated any differently than reading creases that run parallel to the spine, which makes a lot of sense to me.  

 

[The Lions Den]

14 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Thanks Lion. Good to hear confirmation on my assessment. Can I also assume that his claim about CGC  'changing their stance on Marvel Chipping' is fake news ?

From what I understand, Marvel chipping has always been treated as a flaw. But since it's a common manufacturing flaw, it's likely the grading team weighs how prominent it is to help determine the final grade. I would guess they evaluate the size and extent of the chipping and how noticeable it is. Not only that, the condition of the rest of the book without the chipping would have to be determined in order to make a proper evaluation. Just like this TOS #59---it's very important to determine what the book would grade if it didn't have the sub crease. 

As far as changing their stance on chipping, I would guess that some graders may not view chipping as harshly as others. To me, this would explain why there are occasional fluctuations within the grading system. Some things really are a judgement call, and as we all know, judgement can vary, sometimes significantly. 

 

[Bomber-Bob]

3 hours ago, The Lions Den said:

From what I understand, Marvel chipping has always been treated as a flaw. But since it's a common manufacturing flaw, it's likely the grading team weighs how prominent it is to help determine the final grade. I would guess they evaluate the size and extent of the chipping and how noticeable it is. Not only that, the condition of the rest of the book without the chipping would have to be determined in order to make a proper evaluation. Just like this TOS #59---it's very important to determine what the book would grade if it didn't have the sub crease. 

As far as changing their stance on chipping, I would guess that some graders may not view chipping as harshly as others. To me, this would explain why there are occasional fluctuations within the grading system. Some things really are a judgement call, and as we all know, judgement can vary, sometimes significantly. 

 

The problem for me, with CGC being more lenient on some bindery flaws, is that it invites the manipulation of books. Say you have a hard, color breaking corner crease holding your book at 8.5. Remove it, rough it up to make it look like a MC, resubmit and you have a 9.0, maybe even a 9.2 . This exact scenario happened to me. I sold the 8.5 and the new owner got the 9.0 . Happened another time with a 9.0 to 9.2 situation. Technically no rules were broken here. The submitter did not make any claims that it was a MC but CGC assumed it was a MC. Years ago , CGC said they could not regard pressing as restoration because they could not confidently detect it. It would seem MC is in the same category. IMO, a flaw is a flaw no matter how it happened. There should be no grandfathering. 

[Ahsoka Tano Jedi Apprentice]

I have  been getting a lot of books certified by CGC lately and they have been quite harsh ..( in my eye ) and i hear  other people say that CGC is going  thru a stage right about now that they are grading somewhat harder in the recent past.....i have gotten about 20 T.O.S. books back recently and they nit pick them to death. So when I grade on this web-site i just do the same thing. I think people should low ball there grading and submit books on lower tiers and if there wrong ( in CGC's eye's ) then let CGC bump there tier and charge them more. It's better than the alternative.....that being you graded to high and CGC gets to keep your money. 

[Phill the Governor]

A subscription crease should be treated just like any other crease. The only thing that distinguishes it from a "dog ear" or what ever else you want to call a specified crease is the fact that it (generally) involves a crease that runs through the entire book cover to cover. Well, like it or not with pressing, as long a the crease doesn't break color and the subscription crease wasn't that forced to begin with, it can be pressed out.

So in essence, all you're really dealing with here is two variables:

• Does the crease break color (and if so how much).
• Does the book lay flat.

 

Deduct for where the crease breaks color and if the book does not lay flat.

If the crease does not break color its possible it can be pressed out without detection, but more possible it can't totally be pressed out and therefore it gets hit because the book isn't laying flat.