Does Heritage "production art" scare you off the same?
0

31 posts in this topic

309 posts

Howdy gang,

While the whole 'production art' topic has been beaten to death with regards to eBay, I'm curious if people's attitudes extend to places like Heritage?

I gave them a piece for an upcoming auction and they are insisting on using the word 'production' in the title, which to me is a huge red flag that will scare bidders away, thereby ensuring a lower hammer.

The attitude from Heritage is that they have never heard a complaint about this term and see no reason to change it.

So what are peoples thoughts? Does the word 'production' scare you off on Heritage as well? Or are people more forgiving with Heritage and it's only eBay that gets people's ire?

-j

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,234 posts
26 minutes ago, RabidFerret said:

I gave them a piece for an upcoming auction and they are insisting on using the word 'production' in the title, ...

Is it production or original? Better yet, show us...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
309 posts
42 minutes ago, vodou said:

Is it production or original? Better yet, show us...

It’s original art that comes along with a color guide.

I could post the art, but this was meant more as a general question and not specific to one auction/example.

Based on your comment it sounds like you’d approach each piece on its own merits?

If that’s how most people view Heritage that would answer my question and make me confident that it would be given a fair shot.

My concern is whether there are others who won’t even look at anything with the word production in it.

-j

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
168 posts

Having the word ‘production’ in the title will indeed be a negative.

It cannot help you in any way.  Only hurt.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,416 posts
34 minutes ago, Messier3499 said:

Having the word ‘production’ in the title will indeed be a negative.

It cannot help you in any way.  Only hurt.

 

Let me add that I don't even consider it as art, so much as something used to produce a comic. So yes, it is a negative. 

Frankly, I am not sure that color guides deserve to be considered art.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
676 posts

I'm surprised Heritage themselves will labeled an item as production art, if it is indeed original art. They know it  will have a negative impact on it's final price.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,234 posts
2 hours ago, RabidFerret said:

It’s original art that comes along with a color guide.

I could post the art, but this was meant more as a general question and not specific to one auction/example.

Based on your comment it sounds like you’d approach each piece on its own merits?

If that’s how most people view Heritage that would answer my question and make me confident that it would be given a fair shot.

My concern is whether there are others who won’t even look at anything with the word production in it.

-j

I was wondering if it was one of these quasi-production cases, like blackline overlays with hand-painted backgrounds that we see. There is some ambiguity there for sure, not so in other cases. Yours for example, where it's art with a bonus (essentially) and the bonus is not going to be what's driving the final hammer. Or it shouldn't anyway. If it was me, I'd pull the lot. Eff HA on this one.

1 hour ago, Rick2you2 said:

Let me add that I don't even consider it as art, so much as something used to produce a comic. So yes, it is a negative. 

Frankly, I am not sure that color guides deserve to be considered art.

Read for content bro ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,416 posts

"Read for content bro "

I did. That's why I wrote: "Let me add". So of course it is a negative if I don't think "production art" is art. Neither is an engraving plate, even it were cool to own.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,167 posts

I'd ask them to split it into 2 lots, or simply take the color guide back if it is of minimal value.

Edited by Timely

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,210 posts

If i saw the word production art in the title of a listing, i'd assume it's all production art and just move on to the next lot.

 

IMO, it's a huge negative to have that in the listing, since that's not the selling point of the lot. 

I think you'll lose a lot of people quickly from even entertaining the thought of bidding on it, much less clicking through to read what's written about it to find out the details.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,728 posts

I wouldn't look twice at a lot with "production" in the title.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,234 posts
3 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

"Read for content bro "

I did. That's why I wrote: "Let me add". So of course it is a negative if I don't think "production art" is art. Neither is an engraving plate, even it were cool to own.

Such nuance. Only with lawyers (lol), the placement of a comma can change everything. Please.

We don't disagree, but it sure looked you didn't see that OP also had we-all-agree-is-original-art in the consignment lot. The post above suggesting pulling the cg back if HA won't change stance, probably the best idea so far.

Nonetheless, the bitter dispute (hatred?) over the hows of classifying production materials (vs. "original" art, is there unoriginal art? lol) seems pedantic to me -- where most collectors of this so-called original art (I swear...only in comic book circles is the redundant word "original" necessary, not in any other art circles ha ha) are placing priority on something other than artistic content or (gah!) merit, something some of us could actually have a non-trivial debate on (vs....how "cool" is Superman on this page from my first comic!!) fer instance...collecting "art" by...character. That desire is one born out of the production world, not the art world :) , so really...what's the big deal? It's all production art then. (But not to me!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
309 posts

Thanks everyone for your thoughts! I appreciate it! 

Sounds like we're all generally on the same page.

Hopefully Heritage is willing to listen:)

-j

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,234 posts
25 minutes ago, RabidFerret said:

Hopefully Heritage is willing to listen:)

We all know The House is not working for the bidder but the consignor. You might also remind them of that fact as they have been possibly distracted from that matter what with all the sweeping up of 30% or more of the total take at every sale for themselves :)

There's something of a Malcolm Gladwell (or is it Dan Ariely or Dubner/Levitt, too many books man!) reference there...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,416 posts
9 hours ago, vodou said:

Such nuance. Only with lawyers (lol), the placement of a comma can change everything. Please.

We don't disagree, but it sure looked you didn't see that OP also had we-all-agree-is-original-art in the consignment lot. The post above suggesting pulling the cg back if HA won't change stance, probably the best idea so far.

Nonetheless, the bitter dispute (hatred?) over the hows of classifying production materials (vs. "original" art, is there unoriginal art? lol) seems pedantic to me -- where most collectors of this so-called original art (I swear...only in comic book circles is the redundant word "original" necessary, not in any other art circles ha ha) are placing priority on something other than artistic content or (gah!) merit, something some of us could actually have a non-trivial debate on (vs....how "cool" is Superman on this page from my first comic!!) fer instance...collecting "art" by...character. That desire is one born out of the production world, not the art world :) , so really...what's the big deal? It's all production art then. (But not to me!)

Once the subject came up, I decided to go to that so-so source of all information, Wikipedia. After learning that the relevant definition of "production art" is the work of a "production artist" (what a surprise), I saw this in the definition:

"Per Comic Book historian Mark Evanier, in that industry the position generally has involved into "lettering corrections, art touch-ups, laying out advertising and other editorial material and generally doing whatever in the office required the services of someone who could draw a little." I don't consider clean-up work to be artwork. 

Now about those color guides, what do they do that really is artistry? Tell the printer exactly which Pantone number to use for publication? Hand coloring won't necessarily match the final output: it's a guide. So calling it "production art" is essentially saying it's not art. It would be like someone was claiming West Virginia is Virginia because they both have Virginia in the name. For that, Heritage is on target.

"Unoriginal art" is what I would consider re-creation art or copying. So the phrase "original art" does have some meaning.

As far as collecting art by character...it keeps the collection focused. It also lets me appreciate different styles because the variables of a different character or scene are removed. I do buy other things on occasion, but I like my focus, thank you, and it is not a "production."

As far as my legal work goes, a lot of it involves contracts. You bet a comma can makes a difference, but the key remains context. The context of the phrase in what I had written was clear. If not then, certainly now.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,234 posts
1 hour ago, Rick2you2 said:

Now about those color guides, what do they do that really is artistry? Tell the printer exactly which Pantone number to use for publication? Hand coloring won't necessarily match the final output: it's a guide. So calling it "production art" is essentially saying it's not art. It would be like someone was claiming West Virginia is Virginia because they both have Virginia in the name. For that, Heritage is on target

 

Like all art, some is better than others. And to some degree, that difference is obvious to many collectors too, when you put a top and lesser example next to each other. This happens with color guides too, which are actually watercolors less the black (not much used by watercolorists actually). Now would you go into an art gallery or museum with some watercolors on display and tell everybody within ear's reach that it's all just production art? No. So there is, or at least could be some nuance of appreciation here as well...but mostly it's a matter of pricing. The line art is going to be more, the color guide less. But it's art. Now you can disagree or otherwise dismiss in favor or simplifying or catergorizing, but you won't get anything near universal agreement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,416 posts
10 hours ago, vodou said:

Like all art, some is better than others. And to some degree, that difference is obvious to many collectors too, when you put a top and lesser example next to each other. This happens with color guides too, which are actually watercolors less the black (not much used by watercolorists actually). Now would you go into an art gallery or museum with some watercolors on display and tell everybody within ear's reach that it's all just production art? No. So there is, or at least could be some nuance of appreciation here as well...but mostly it's a matter of pricing. The line art is going to be more, the color guide less. But it's art. Now you can disagree or otherwise dismiss in favor or simplifying or catergorizing, but you won't get anything near universal agreement.

But they are coloring in the lines, like in a coloring book, for publication. The printing colors are presumably going to be the Pantone designations. And while it is handwork and takes some skill, what are they adding which is visionary for the piece? I think it's closer to buying something with an autograph on it: nice to have, but not art.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
151 posts
12 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

It would be like someone was claiming West Virginia is Virginia because they both have Virginia in the name.

Montani semper liberi.  Always loved our state motto, Mountaineers are always free.  Virginia's...Sic semper tyrannis (thus always to tyrants), is the exact reason WV told them to go to hell after they (VA) seceded from the Union in 1861.  Just started our own damn government.  Never get WV mentions, so thought I'd just represent (before the jokes start). 

 

Edited by williamhlawson
clarity

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
151 posts

Not a fan of 'color guides' being referred to as original art. That being said, not all cg are created equally.  Some are clearly more appealing to the eye and should have some value if clean, well done and displayable. The term production art generally makes me move immediately on.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
687 posts
1 hour ago, williamhlawson said:

Not a fan of 'color guides' being referred to as original art. That being said, not all cg are created equally.  Some are clearly more appealing to the eye and should have some value if clean, well done and displayable. The term production art generally makes me move immediately on.

 

I agree that within the lexicon of original comic art collectors, describing color guides as original art is confusing, and potentially deceptive.  However, there are doubtless some  tremendous color guides extant of historic pages which should be of considerable collector interest.  David

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
0