Reasons for DC layoffs 2 2

[RCheli]

Just now, kav said:

Ok let me ask you this-are there ANY bad comic artists?

Of course there are. But you can't pull out a panel/page/or even a full comic to say that someone's bad.

Kirby, Ditko, Colon, Frazetta, whomever. They all did stuff that wasn't great. I have favorite artists who did bad covers or pages or panels. That doesn't mean they're bad.

I hate the song "And Your Bird Can Sing" but that doesn't mean I don't love the Beatles

[RCheli]

Just now, kav said:

So who is a bad comic artist?

I don't want to say who's bad. I can say who I don't like. 

Werner Roth. Greg Land. Jim Balent. Manny Stallman. Don Perlin. There are plenty of them from the beginning of comics to today. But for you to have a career in comics, you have to have some sort of talent. Whether it's storytelling or being able to get the stuff done on time, you are professional in what you do. 

We can certainly say who we don't like. I think that's opinion. But don't say that it's bad.

[kav]

2 minutes ago, RCheli said:

I don't want to say who's bad. I can say who I don't like. 

Werner Roth. Greg Land. Jim Balent. Manny Stallman. Don Perlin. There are plenty of them from the beginning of comics to today. But for you to have a career in comics, you have to have some sort of talent. Whether it's storytelling or being able to get the stuff done on time, you are professional in what you do. 

We can certainly say who we don't like. I think that's opinion. But don't say that it's bad.

True for artists-not sure its true for writers.  I'm convinced some writers get hired to check off diversity check boxes.  Ever read 'America'?  The writing is not even good enough to be called bad writing.  

[RCheli]

1 minute ago, kav said:

True for artists-not sure its true for writers.  I'm convinced some writers get hired to check off diversity check boxes.  Ever read 'America'?  The writing is not even good enough to be called bad writing.  

Yes. It's true. Companies publish work not because it's good or interesting or compelling or different, but because they want to check off diversity boxes. You figured it all out. It's not like she's a best-selling/critically acclaimed author. No, it's because she's queer and Latino.

[kav]

4 minutes ago, RCheli said:

Yes. It's true. Companies publish work not because it's good or interesting or compelling or different, but because they want to check off diversity boxes. You figured it all out. It's not like she's a best-selling/critically acclaimed author. No, it's because she's queer and Latino.

Um America was quickly canceled.  Have you actually READ it?  You're saying she's a good writer?

[kav]

Ps she's Latina not Latino.

[kav]

13 minutes ago, RCheli said:

Yes. It's true. Companies publish work not because it's good or interesting or compelling or different, but because they want to check off diversity boxes. You figured it all out. It's not like she's a best-selling/critically acclaimed author. No, it's because she's queer and Latino.

Can you show anywhere where Juliet Takes a Breath was a 'best selling' book?  As I understand it it was a low print independant publisher deal.  Critically acclaimed is also a bit of a stretch.  This was an individual who had never written comics before and had one independently published book.  And she was hired to write comics.    Hardly a Mark Twain or Stan Lee type figure.  

Edited January 31, 2019 by kav

[RCheli]

2 minutes ago, kav said:

Um America was quickly canceled.  Have you actually READ it?  You're saying she's a good writer?

I haven't read it. I haven't read her book, either. But it's won awards and it sounds like she has a voice that readers and critics really enjoy. The fact that Marvel went after her seems like a no-brainer. That her comic didn't work may be because she doesn't really write well for comics. Maybe it was over-edited. Maybe she just didn't do a good job. But a Marvel comic that lasted 12 issues doesn't seem like the abject failure you're making it out to.

[RCheli]

2 minutes ago, kav said:

Can you show anywhere where Juliet Takes a Breath was a 'best selling' book?  As I understand it it was a low print independant publisher deal.  Critically acclaimed is also a bit of a stretch.

Jesus. You really are a troll of the highest order.

[kav]

1 minute ago, RCheli said:

I haven't read it. I haven't read her book, either. But it's won awards and it sounds like she has a voice that readers and critics really enjoy. The fact that Marvel went after her seems like a no-brainer. That her comic didn't work may be because she doesn't really write well for comics. Maybe it was over-edited. Maybe she just didn't do a good job. But a Marvel comic that lasted 12 issues doesn't seem like the abject failure you're making it out to.

You should read it.  It has great lines like 'holy menstruation' and 'carmaba! y'all are everywhere!' when she encounters white people on campus.  With great expositional dialogue like "At least I made it home AKA the van I bought for fifty bucks after me and Lisa broke up cause I was too scared to get a roommate'.  Top notch award-winnin stuff.  Look I have actually read Gabby Rivera and you haven't yet you're lecturing me on her writing ability-does that sound legit?

And her book did not win 'awards' it one one award, the Independent Publisher Book Award for Gay/Lesbian/Bi/Trans Fiction.  Not exactly the Pulitzer

[kav]

6 minutes ago, RCheli said:

Jesus. You really are a troll of the highest order.

Troll: someone who has the stronger argument and it ticks me off.

[AnthonyTheAbyss]

35 minutes ago, kav said:

Ok let me ask you this-are there ANY bad comic artists?

Obviously there are plenty.  BUT...I have no problem with the art in question because we (in general) don't even know the artist's name.  I wouldn't even know of this if not for this post.  Out of sight, out of mind.

 

The reason why Liefeld is so polarizing is because of how much fame and money he made from "horrible" artwork.  He over achieved...really really over achieved.

Frank Miller is a terrible artist.  But everybody overlooks that because of his ultra talented storytelling.

 

So plenty of bad artist.  But very few bad artist make elite money like the two I mentioned.  That needs to be part of the equation.

[kav]

38 minutes ago, RCheli said:

a Marvel comic that lasted 12 issues doesn't seem like the abject failure you're making it out to.

No what makes it an abject failure (aside from the writing) is the sales figures-abyssmal:

 

The real question is why Marvel kept trying to prop up such a low selling book.

Edited January 31, 2019 by kav

[Domo Arigato]

2 hours ago, kav said:

And ps frank robbins THIS is how people jump-the arms and legs alternate:

 

 

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, kav said:

Can you show anywhere where Juliet Takes a Breath was a 'best selling' book?  As I understand it it was a low print independant publisher deal.  Critically acclaimed is also a bit of a stretch.  This was an individual who had never written comics before and had one independently published book.  And she was hired to write comics.    Hardly a Mark Twain or Stan Lee type figure.  

Stan Lee was hired into the comics industry because he was a great, proven writer? Well, that's an interesting spin on history.

[RCheli]

1 hour ago, kav said:

Troll: someone who has the stronger argument and it ticks me off.

Look, you're a troll because your post count signifies you have some sort of knowledge about comics, and yet you have proven time and again that you are truly misinformed about nearly everything. You seem to want to show an awareness of how the industry works -- whether it's new comics, creating comics, selling comics -- but in the many years of reading your posts, I can't for the life of my find any of that. Instead, you tend to criticize and nit-pick and bloviate with the depth of a three-year-old.

In this thread, you criticize artists and writers currently working in the business, making a living off their work, based on badly executed page or panel or sales figures, and that's just not how it works. Great comics get cancelled. Great creators do bad work. Artists and writers aren't just handed writing assignments without showing that they have talent and can do it (and they are especially not given work merely because of their sex, gender, race, etc.).  

Why was that Batgirl page published as is? Was it the fault of the penciller? An editor? An inker? Was Frank Robbins' bad pose because he had 2 hours to complete a page when a writer or letterer didn't get their assignment done on time? Who knows. But it's a weak argument -- and trolling -- when you do this sort of thing.

So you need to stop.

[Lazyboy]

2 hours ago, kav said:

Once again if you have to come up with a bunch of explanations to explain art, it's bad.  "Well sure spiderman looks crooked but he might have had surgery.  Also there could be some atmospheric effects or maybe he's purposely bending weird like that for a joke".  Nope.

Tip for artists: if people have to try to make sense of your drawing by saying maybe it was a bad renovation or a joke-um you probably suck.

Context always matters. Maybe everything on that page makes perfect sense and has been specifically explained. I wouldn't know because I quit DC in 2011. I'm sure you don't know, either

Not long ago on here, people were trashing D. Sprang's covers for 'Tec 622-624 for being terrible, completely out of place, and a misguided attempt to be relevant to the 90s, because they didn't have a clue how they fit the story.

It's okay to not like an artist or their style, but you can't just dismiss everything that looks odd without context.

[bluechip]

14 hours ago, kav said:

I think reading has declined over the years.  People watch TV.  Most people under 35 seem to think it's 'flicked off' not 'flipped off'.  This indicates they have never read the phrase but only misheard it.  

Once I was with a group of colleagues going through written notes from an arrogant, quasi-literate boss who wrote the words "could of" in the margins of a document that, coincidentally, contained the contraction "could've."    I circled "could've" in the original text and I asked, "What do you suppose he thinks that means?"  

Edited January 31, 2019 by bluechip

[kav]

2 hours ago, RCheli said:

Look, you're a troll because your post count signifies you have some sort of knowledge about comics, and yet you have proven time and again that you are truly misinformed about nearly everything. You seem to want to show an awareness of how the industry works -- whether it's new comics, creating comics, selling comics -- but in the many years of reading your posts, I can't for the life of my find any of that. Instead, you tend to criticize and nit-pick and bloviate with the depth of a three-year-old.

In this thread, you criticize artists and writers currently working in the business, making a living off their work, based on badly executed page or panel or sales figures, and that's just not how it works. Great comics get cancelled. Great creators do bad work. Artists and writers aren't just handed writing assignments without showing that they have talent and can do it (and they are especially not given work merely because of their sex, gender, race, etc.).  

Why was that Batgirl page published as is? Was it the fault of the penciller? An editor? An inker? Was Frank Robbins' bad pose because he had 2 hours to complete a page when a writer or letterer didn't get their assignment done on time? Who knows. But it's a weak argument -- and trolling -- when you do this sort of thing.

So you need to stop.

Ok so if that's all true just answer the question I asked to show how wrong I am and how informed you are and stuff-what evidence do you have to show Gabby Rivera is a 'best selling' writer as you stated she was?  You ignored the question the first time and went straight to troll comments instead so-here's your big chance to show you know what you're talking about.   

You accuse me of 'not having an awareness of how things work'-I've read Gabby Rivera-you haven't.  Yet you're the expert on her writing.  Microcosm of the whole difference between you and me.

Who had 'America's' actual sales figures-you or me?  Who knew how many awards Gabby Rivera had won and what they were called-you or me?  Ya might wanna rethink who's the uninformed troll here.  Ps Gabby Rivera is not 'currently working in the business'.  She did America-which was canceled, and nothing since.  You need to stop.

Edited January 31, 2019 by kav

[kav]

1 hour ago, Lazyboy said:

Stan Lee was hired into the comics industry because he was a great, proven writer? Well, that's an interesting spin on history.

Well he started small but his writing was successful so he got more and more assignments-he wasn't just given an entire title to write first day on the job like Gabby was!!  Come on now!

Matter of fact his first job was filling ink wells.  I'm surprised you thought he was hired off the streets and immediately given books to write.

Edited January 31, 2019 by kav