Why people hate most modern books
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39 minutes ago, newshane said:
41 minutes ago, 500Club said:

My response was in regard to the idea of diversification, and Artboy99’s having noted Marvel’s SJW trend toward replacing core characters with minorities.  You’d noted similar attempts in the 70’s and 80’s, with GSX 1, Black Panther et al.   I’d responded that at that point, diversification had been accomplished with new characters.

Yes. I don't have a problem with diversity. I think everyone needs a hero with whom they can relate. 

 But re-writing characters who were established in the 60s is not the proper route to take. 

On top of that, there’s plenty of examples of great, and original, minority characters.  The success of the Claremont/Wein new X-Men characters showed that, even back in the late 70’s, diversified well written characters would be readily accepted.

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1 hour ago, Chuck Gower said:

Good thing they stayed away from Social Issues in the Silver and Bronze age! (Sarcasm)

 

Screen Shot 2019-02-03 at 11.43.01 AM.png

 

 

Earlier than Silver Age; EC's classic 'Judgement Day' story.

They also published several hard-hitting relevance tales in Shock Suspenstories.

 

Edited by Ken Aldred

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15 minutes ago, batman_fan said:
48 minutes ago, 500Club said:

My response was in regard to the idea of diversification, and Artboy99’s having noted Marvel’s SJW trend toward replacing core characters with minorities.  You’d noted similar attempts in the 70’s and 80’s, with GSX 1, Black Panther et al.   I’d responded that at that point, diversification had been accomplished with new characters.

The 70s and 80s was totally different.  GSX1 introduced new characters from a more diverse background, Black Panther was black from day 1.  Any of the stories where Lois Lane became black was for one story in one book.  I don't really see a comparison.  I think the trend today is to try and bring in a new much younger customer base and this is the idea they came up with.  Seems like it has alienated some of the existing customer base.  Did it bring in more than it pushed ?  Sales number should say whether it was a net positive.  For the publishers, it is critical that they find some mechanism to bring in a new young crowd or they are dead.  All of us old customers aren't going to sustain the media for the next 20 to 50 years, they have to get new young people in that they can lock in for the next several decades.

Your response wanders another step away from the original point made, which was modern comics being hindered by the attempts to replace core characters.  The 70s and 80s were totally different; new characters were created.  That’s all I was addressing.

I agree with you; Marvel’s move was an attempt to bring in new readers.  I’d opine that they should’ve consulted with Coke about the ‘new Coke’ fiasco, and how that worked out, before changing their core ingredients.  What they need to do, from a business perspective, is keep their core characters consistent, and add new characters around the edges.

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2 hours ago, RCheli said:

You don't like Brian Bolland? He draws exclusively on the computer now and is fantastic.

I’m sure there is some good stuff out there that is drawn digitally. But I strongly prefer the old fashioned colored pencils to photoshop. 

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2 minutes ago, 500Club said:

Your response wanders another step away from the original point made, which was modern comics being hindered by the attempts to replace core characters.  The 70s and 80s were totally different; new characters were created.  That’s all I was addressing.

I agree with you; Marvel’s move was an attempt to bring in new readers.  I’d opine that they should’ve consulted with Coke about the ‘new Coke’ fiasco, and how that worked out, before changing their core ingredients.  What they need to do, from a business perspective, is keep their core characters consistent, and add new characters around the edges.

I 100% agree with you.  Keeping the base and expanding with new characters tied to the current times seems a better way to maintain the base and expand with a younger group, both of which are critical to extending the life of the media.

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23 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:
57 minutes ago, 500Club said:

My response was in regard to the idea of diversification, and Artboy99’s having noted Marvel’s SJW trend toward replacing core characters with minorities.  You’d noted similar attempts in the 70’s and 80’s, with GSX 1, Black Panther et al.   I’d responded that at that point, diversification had been accomplished with new characters.

 Who’ve they replaced?

In the space of a few months, you had Riri Williams as Iron Man, Amadeus Cho as the Hulk, X23 as Wolverine (as you note)...

Readers are happy with the essence of the core characters.  The success of the Immortal Hulk is testament to that.  Long time readers want Bruce Banner Hulk stories.  And, I agree with you, it would be folly for anyone who’d read comics for more than six months to think X23 was going to be Wolverine long term, but comic readers are finicky.  Look at the backlash with the Hydra Cap storyline.

Business wise, as I noted above, keep your core intact, and work at the edges.  Amadeus Cho was already a promising character - develop him as his own character.  Look at Moon Girl - her tpb’s are apparently quite popular through the scholastic book order program.

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6 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

According to Gerber, he and Marvel did "manage to reach an accommodation about that character (Omega the Unknown) and a couple of others. In the end, they were very reasonable about it, and I consider the matter closed."

That wasn’t really the point, but I appreciate the additional information.

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One reason (it may have been brought up already as I whipped through the first 6 pages) people may gripe more is that there are more platforms to pontificate from. 50 years ago you had the letters page to gripe on (if your letter was even printed). Today we have thousands of message boards and social media outlets to bash things from.

But if you look deep into your heart of hearts, you blame Rob Liefeld. He couldn't draw legs or feet worth a damn and gave Captain America an amazing rack. Who wouldn't hate modern comics after that?

 

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22 hours ago, Cliff R. said:

I don't buy modern books, I have no interest in seeing

Batman's Batman exposed

Jesus' Second Coming DC comics 2nd coming

And countless others.  I wouldn't collect this trash if it were free.

 

It's the vague outline of a <edit, apparently the "p" word is filtered>. It's one panel. It's not gratuitous and not a central part of the story. Does it really bother you that much? 

Edited by SBRobin

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8 minutes ago, SBRobin said:

Does it really bother you that much

Yes, it does. Just another controversial gimmick to sell books.

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14 minutes ago, Cliff R. said:

Yes, it does. Just another controversial gimmick to sell books.

Flippin' Michelangelo, showing them exposed penii. Just another controversial gimmick to sell statues. 

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Sorry, but unless Batman had his member ripped off in battle, and had to have it reattached, it really adds nothing to the story. lol

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2 hours ago, 500Club said:

In the space of a few months, you had Riri Williams as Iron Man, Amadeus Cho as the Hulk, X23 as Wolverine (as you note)...

Guy Gardner and John Stewart as the new Green Lantern...

Jim Rhodes as Iron Man...

Ben Reilly as Spider-Man...

That dude who replaced Captain America in the late 80s...

Don Blake no longer Thor...

This stuff isn't new. Is it because it's women that are replacing the characters that's bothering you?

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1 minute ago, RCheli said:
2 hours ago, 500Club said:

In the space of a few months, you had Riri Williams as Iron Man, Amadeus Cho as the Hulk, X23 as Wolverine (as you note)...

Guy Gardner and John Stewart as the new Green Lantern...

Jim Rhodes as Iron Man...

Ben Reilly as Spider-Man...

That dude who replaced Captain America in the late 80s...

Don Blake no longer Thor...

This stuff isn't new. Is it because it's women that are replacing the characters that's bothering you?

No pointless ad hominem stuff, please.

It’s not bothering ME, per se.  Re read my post.  Note: ‘in the space of a few months’.  Yeah, your examples point out that this phenomenon was nothing new.  The difference is, this time it was a poorly conceived, forced attempt linewide.

In context of the OP, this was not well received, and in combination with other points in this thread, has led to some of the distaste for modern books.

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2 hours ago, 500Club said:

In the space of a few months, you had Riri Williams as Iron Man, Amadeus Cho as the Hulk, X23 as Wolverine (as you note)...

Readers are happy with the essence of the core characters.  The success of the Immortal Hulk is testament to that.  Long time readers want Bruce Banner Hulk stories.  And, I agree with you, it would be folly for anyone who’d read comics for more than six months to think X23 was going to be Wolverine long term, but comic readers are finicky.  Look at the backlash with the Hydra Cap storyline.

Business wise, as I noted above, keep your core intact, and work at the edges.  Amadeus Cho was already a promising character - develop him as his own character.  Look at Moon Girl - her tpb’s are apparently quite popular through the scholastic book order program.

But NONE of them were replaced for good, nor WILL they be. So why is it that big of a deal?

If Hulk is selling 35,000 copies a month (2014) and they replace him with Amadeus Cho, they get:

A new #1 at 75,000 copies, a #2 at 40,000 copies, and a #3 at 35,000 and by year's end at about 27,000 copies - i.e. a book that averaged about 35,000 copies for the month, same as the other Hulk. Except now they have a new property, who has gotten exposure, that can be used to sell their brand to an even larger, worldwide audience. And that's an instance where it didn't do as well. Thor picked up readers and actually increased it's print run to become one of Marvel's Top 3 monthly published titles for the first time in decades - Iron Man sold better than it had in years - despite the original characters success in movies... and all of these temporary stand-ins are geared to be marketed to a new, younger, up and coming marketplace.

You're not so naive that you thought this business was all about stories did you?

Marvel is achieving exactly what they want. People talk about it (good or bad) and more people pick it up out of curiosity. They weren't surviving by waiting for old timers to keep buying new comics - they at least now scrape to get by using their silly marketing gimmicks. 

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Actually, let me put it to you this way:  if Marvel had systematically changed all these characters to new, 30 something, straight white men, of new identities, people would have been equally annoyed.

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20 minutes ago, RCheli said:

Guy Gardner and John Stewart as the new Green Lantern...

Jim Rhodes as Iron Man...

Ben Reilly as Spider-Man...

That dude who replaced Captain America in the late 80s...

Don Blake no longer Thor...

This stuff isn't new. Is it because it's women that are replacing the characters that's bothering you?

I'm not saying everyone who argues about this is a misogynist/racist/homophobe, BUT... if you're a misogynist/racist/homophobe, this is the perfect conversation for them to jump into.

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2 minutes ago, 500Club said:

Actually, let me put it to you this way:  if Marvel had systematically changed all these characters to new, 30 something, straight white men, of new identities, people would have been equally annoyed.

Mmmm... no I don't think so. Because then all of the closet misogynist/racist/homophobe's wouldn't have joined in to make it a much bigger deal than it should be. Really, this nonsense is ALL OVER the internet. And really, it just shouldn't be that big of a deal. 

But the people screaming SJW and snowflake, political buzzwords that should be banned from this forum, all came banging the drum and turning this into something it really isn't. 

No one's forcing anyone to read these comics. Don't like it? Don't read it. That sends the ultimate message to a publisher. But it appears that for everyone who didn't like it, there was someone who DID in most of these instances. 

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On 2/2/2019 at 7:36 PM, kav said:

why do a lot of people scold modern books?

Because they are pants.

Edited by batmiesta

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6 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:
2 hours ago, 500Club said:

In the space of a few months, you had Riri Williams as Iron Man, Amadeus Cho as the Hulk, X23 as Wolverine (as you note)...

Readers are happy with the essence of the core characters.  The success of the Immortal Hulk is testament to that.  Long time readers want Bruce Banner Hulk stories.  And, I agree with you, it would be folly for anyone who’d read comics for more than six months to think X23 was going to be Wolverine long term, but comic readers are finicky.  Look at the backlash with the Hydra Cap storyline.

Business wise, as I noted above, keep your core intact, and work at the edges.  Amadeus Cho was already a promising character - develop him as his own character.  Look at Moon Girl - her tpb’s are apparently quite popular through the scholastic book order program.

But NONE of them were replaced for good, nor WILL they be. So why is it that big of a deal?

If Hulk is selling 35,000 copies a month (2014) and they replace him with Amadeus Cho, they get:

A new #1 at 75,000 copies, a #2 at 40,000 copies, and a #3 at 35,000 and by year's end at about 27,000 copies - i.e. a book that averaged about 35,000 copies for the month, same as the other Hulk. Except now they have a new property, who has gotten exposure, that can be used to sell their brand to an even larger, worldwide audience. And that's an instance where it didn't do as well. Thor picked up readers and actually increased it's print run to become one of Marvel's Top 3 monthly published titles for the first time in decades - Iron Man sold better than it had in years - despite the original characters success in movies... and all of these temporary stand-ins are geared to be marketed to a new, younger, up and coming marketplace.

You're not so naive that you thought this business was all about stories did you?

Oh, hell, no.  But, and this was addressed in Sean Howe’s book about Marvel, they had data in the 90’s that showed these types of things led to a sales bump, and then, afterward, readership levels dropped lower than it had been prior to the change.

So, why is it a big deal?  People want to read the core characters they know.  With these changes, some people quit reading, and, even though they probably know the change isn’t permanent, this may be the straw that breaks the camel’s back, in terms of some of the other points noted, like $3.99 a book, reboots, decompressed storytelling, endless derivative characters, modern coloring, variants...

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