The Official All-Star Batman & Robin #1 Sucks Thread (SPOILERS)

[Chi Bamm]

delek wrote

it doesn't really do anything for readers looking for a classic Batman read or for new readers discovering the Dark Knight for the first time

 

You see that's what I was talking about before. The OLDER generation bashing the new stuff coming out. You guys just want rehashes of what you grew up with. You want that same feel you got when you were younger as you do now. But times change, clothes change, music changes, but it does not make it worse. I hate when people say that, it's all change that's all it is. And you guys say how he conforms the Bendis style of writing. What is wrong with the Bendis style huh? It's intelligent, witty, and funny, it's great dialogue. You guys get out of your rut and yet us young guys enjoy it. Because we love comics as much as you and we don't appreciate you guys bashing our Age.

[The Brain]

OK, many interesting points all around guys, but can we get back to the topic at hand, which is that ALL-STAR BATMAN & ROBIN #1 BLOWS CHUNKS.

 

SAYS YOU!!!!................NOT ALL HERE HOLD THAT OPINION!!!!

[delekkerste]

You see that's what I was talking about before. The OLDER generation bashing the new stuff coming out. You guys just want rehashes of what you grew up with.

 

Where on earth do you get this from what I wrote? I didn't say I want a rehash, I said I want a good story and ASB&R #1 did not deliver. I read plenty of new books. In fact, NEW BOOKS ARE THE ONLY BOOKS I COLLECT NOW. Get your facts straight!!

 

 

What is wrong with the Bendis style huh? It's intelligent, witty, and funny, it's great dialogue.

 

Well, nothing's wrong with the Bendis style if you've got such low standards that you find it intelligent, witty and funny with great dialogue. NOOOO!!! Dialogue doesn't get any worse than his!!! Ooooh, I'm so cool making every single character sound exactly the same with gratuitous pop culture references in every panel. HACK CITY, U.S.A., BABY!!!!!!!!!!! Oops, sorry, I have CNBC's "Mad Money" on in the background and Cramer's getting me all fired up. I'm hitting the TRIPLE-SELL button on Bendis and I'll throw in JMS for free.

 

 

You guys get out of your rut and yet us young guys enjoy it.

 

How old do you think I am? I'm still young enough to bang chicks your age, so cut it out with the old-timer stuff.

[chrisco37]

I just read it about an hour ago. I didn't like it either. I agree with Gene that, at times, I thought I was reading Bendis. In fact, most of what Gene said I agree with. Was it Gotham City or Sin City?

 

Lee's art was, as usual, superb but it didn't fit (much like the Superman arc he did with Azzarello).

 

I wasn't expecting a "kid" book from Frank Miller. But, I was expecting a good, or at least interesting, first issue. After his last Batman effort (the dreadful DKSA) I thought he'd come back with something! It's Frank Miller for crying out loud!!!!

[Chi Bamm]

DELEK, what do you mean that's not what you wrote, and I'm taking things out of context. You said, people looking for a CLASSIC BATMAN story, when everyone knew that it wasn't going to be the same. SO YOU WANTED A REHASH.

 

And how in your right mind can you not like Bendis. Just because he's changes everything he writes?? Please don't get on that band wagon with everyone else.

And your pop culture refernce theory, that ruins Bendis' writing? When hasn't a writer used pop culture references. I mean all the way back to UXM 1 and FF1 there's refernces everywhere.

 

But to ask you a fair question since all you collect now is Modern books.....What do you like then???

[chrisco37]

And how in your right mind can you not like Bendis. Just because he's changes everything he writes?? Please don't get on that band wagon with everyone else.

And your pop culture refernce theory, that ruins Bendis' writing?

 

Even though you addressed Gene, I'll give my perspective on this question. Actually, I like alot of stuff the Bendis has done (Ultimate Spider-Man thru the 50's, Alias, Goldfish, older Daredevil) but the quality of his work has gone way down. Ultimate Spider-Man gets worse every issue. I can't wait until #100 (that's when I'm dropping it ). Daredevil has gotten really .

 

Ultimate Spider-Man used to be one of my favorite reads, now I'm picking it up for the sake of completeness. His stories take up alot of pages, but they lack the substance they used to have.

[shrunkenhead]

 

And how in your right mind can you not like Bendis. Just because he's changes everything he writes?? Please don't get on that band wagon with everyone else.

And your pop culture refernce theory, that ruins Bendis' writing? When hasn't a writer used pop culture references. I mean all the way back to UXM 1 and FF1 there's refernces everywhere.

 

Pop culture reference in comics go back a whole lot farther than you're suggesting, but there's a right way and a wrong way to about it. I think what Gene is bemoaning is the "I'm so cool" kind of self-referencing that goes on in Bendis' work. And yeah, I second that view, that kinda of stuck-in-GenX self-absorption was a tired approach to comics writing in the early nineties, let alone 15 years later.

 

The only Bendis work I ever liked was his run on Torso for Image, probably because that was the one work in which Bendis took himself OUT of current pop culture and did some historical research. Working successfully outside of the culture that's handed to you is, to me, one of the hallmarks of a good writer.

[Foolkiller]

well... I still liked it Gene... but Chi Bamm... Miller and Lee are of the generation Gene and I grew up with... Lee was really a boom artist of the late 80s and early 90s... and has maintained his longevity.

 

Bendis, quite honestly, is an overused hack. I can't stand his writing because he writes his characters with one voice with little character development and little understanding or appreciation of history. Go read New Avengers and have someone read you the lines and see if you can associate lines with one character different from another.

 

I agree with the sentiment that many times older readers tend to try and hang onto the past wishing for older storylines. You have to evaluate each story structurally, and in today's multi part 6 issue story arc -- well... you have to admit that the writing isn't exactly awesome these days over all.

[delekkerste]

DELEK, what do you mean that's not what you wrote, and I'm taking things out of context. You said, people looking for a CLASSIC BATMAN story, when everyone knew that it wasn't going to be the same. SO YOU WANTED A REHASH.

 

Since when did "classic" become synonymous with "rehash"? All I wanted was a Batman and Robin series, unburdened by continuity, with traditional super-hero elements that all readers could enjoy. A book that Batman fans and new comics readers alike could jump on board from the beginning and enjoy for years. From all indications, that was what DC was pushing for as well. Instead, we got a rated-R Hush Part 2.

 

 

And how in your right mind can you not like Bendis. Just because he's changes everything he writes??

 

His dialogue is awful. Every character speaks in the same voice, probably because he works on so many titles that he does not have time to focus on the characters. JMS has the same problem - Aunt May's dialogue sounds like it could be spoken by Peter Parker. But, I digress. USM was decent for a while, but rapidly turned into a joke where it takes 2 minutes to read each issue and 5 issues before anything of note happens. I thought his Daredevil was actually very good - the whole Silke vs. the Kingpin storyline was the best DD story since "Born Again". But then, the series went down the toilet as Bendis got too full of himself and tried to make big changes for the sake of stamping his inflated ego on the book. And don't get me started on Avengers Disassembled...

 

 

But to ask you a fair question since all you collect now is Modern books.....What do you like then???

 

There are a ton of Modern books that I have enjoyed, but just speaking about books from the past 2-3 years, I'll say that, despite suffering from many of the same problems as Bendis, I thought Millar made The Ultimates work. I thought Bruce Jones' Hulk run was superb. The Busiek/Nord Conan series has been excellent. I have enjoyed Y: The Last Man a lot. Identity Crisis was really good except for the anticlimatic ending. I thought several CrossGen series were exceptional before the company went under a year or two ago. I am very behind on my Ultimate X-Men reading, but I enjoyed the first 50 issues. Bendis' writing a few years ago, as I mentioned, was very good; in the last couple of years, though, he has gone from very good to an instant has-been. I have to say that I think the quality of new comics (I'm talking primarily about Marvels) has really taken a very sharp nose-dive over the past 1-2 years. I thought Marvel circa 2001-2002 was cranking out some of the best books in their history, but nowadays, I just cannot believe the dreck that they are publishing.

[Chi Bamm]

Ok, Derek, I tend to agree with you on your picks for what you read currently and that Marvel was making good books in the early 2000's. It seems like we are having a recycle of what happened in the 90's but I don't think it is as bad. I mean were there variant covers like crazy 3 or 4 years ago??? I mean there's alot now. Granted I buy a couple because I really like the artwork. (I like Quesada covers, sorry!!!) But I only recently (8 months) got back into the comics thing after being in the Army for 4 years, so I'm pretty much getting back into the loop. But I have been reading for awhile.

[awe4one]

I thought several CrossGen series were exceptional before the company went under a year or two ago.

 

I know it's OT but got to give props to Gene for his exceptional taste...

 

I still miss Scion...and Meridian...and Mystic...

 

Jim

[rjpb]

I just read it about an hour ago. I didn't like it either. I agree with Gene that, at times, I thought I was reading Bendis. In fact, most of what Gene said I agree with. Was it Gotham City or Sin City?

 

Lee's art was, as usual, superb but it didn't fit (much like the Superman arc he did with Azzarello).

 

I wasn't expecting a "kid" book from Frank Miller. But, I was expecting a good, or at least interesting, first issue. After his last Batman effort (the dreadful DKSA) I thought he'd come back with something! It's Frank Miller for crying out loud!!!!

 

It is precisely because DKSA was so disappointing ( and the Sin City arcs had become so repetative) that I was unintesested in this book (besides it features Robin!). I also find Jim Lee's art to be slick and competent, but ultimately sort of boring.

 

I'm a bit of a Batman fan, but find that between books like Gotham Central, the occaisonal LoTDK storyline, various Elseworlds projects and the odd mini-series (like the current Jekyll & Hyde one) that I can always find a Batman related title to buy without feeling the need to pick up a new series just because Frank Miller is writing.

[chrisco37]

It seems like we are having a recycle of what happened in the 90's but I don't think it is as bad. I mean were there variant covers like crazy 3 or 4 years ago???

 

I agree with you here. Especially, on the Marvel side. DC will do a variant cover here-and-there. With the new GL and the All-Star Bats we got an equal distribution of two covers. But, DC is nowhere near close to what Marvel has done - loads of variants, lots of re-boots.

 

Does anybody have a list of the Marvel reboots/#1's in the past 2 years? I'll bet there's 20 or more.

 

And, back to the"Bendis-thing", I agree that he's spread himself way too thin by taking on too many projects. DC has locked up almost all the good writers to exclusives. Marvel only has Bendis, Millar, and JMS (ugh!) to choose from to write the stories. Oh, and Joss Whedon (Astonishing X-Men is a good book). Marvel has no other choice but to use Bendis on every title.

[shrunkenhead]

 

I'm a bit of a Batman fan, but find that between books like Gotham Central, the occaisonal LoTDK storyline, various Elseworlds projects and the odd mini-series (like the current Jekyll & Hyde one) that I can always find a Batman related title to buy without feeling the need to pick up a new series just because Frank Miller is writing.

 

Jekyll & Hyde is really good. How come nobody's talking about that one?

[Hobgoblin]

So, I just got around to reading this issue. I saved it for last. Yeah, its definitely not what I expected. Why does Batman's thought process seem so, well so much less intelligent than the original Batman?

 

The writing is poor, I'll attest to that, but Lee's art is still enough for me to buy the book, regardless. Surely things will get better once some rogues start making appearances.

[shrunkenhead]

Ok, so I just got and read my copy too.

 

Boy, does the writing suck.

 

I mean, it really could be anybody. I'd never know it was Frank Miller if it didn't say so on the cover.

 

The Vicki Vale butt shots are ridiculous. I'm no prude, but that kind of cr*p makes me ashamed and embarassed to be a comics geek. Nothing wrong with nudity in a comic, but those butt shots are just pre-adolescent stroke material. Puh-leeze.

 

And yes, Gene gets my vote for "let's lose the creepy pedophile subtext." I mean, c'mon, in this version it's not supposed to be an accident that Wayne is at the circus..because he's been "watching" this boy "for a while." Eeeewww.

 

If DC wants to update and revamp the character, fine, but in order to update something you first have to be in tune with the current culture. And icky man/boy relationships are OUT these days, ok DC? Doesn't the editorial board at DC ever watch the news? If you're not going to make Robin older, at least let's not have Bruce stalking the kid before his parents are murdered. I mean, really, WTF is going on here?? And why is he bringing Vale with him to the circus to watch the kid. It's just bizarre.

 

So after reading, I can see why Gene was so pizzed off that he felt the need to start this thread. But will I buy #2? Yeah, I will. Like I said, I like to collect the Bat in all his aspects...the good, the bad, and the ugly. And boy is this one ugly.

[awe4one]

But will I buy #2? Yeah, I will. Like I said, I like to collect the Bat in all his aspects...the good, the bad, and the ugly. And boy is this one ugly.

 

But aren't you then just encouraging more of the same from DC later? The responsible thing is to stop buying the comic and hope, though I admit it's a false expectation, that DC will get the message...

 

Jim

[Hobgoblin]

Doesn't seem that hard to write a comic nowadays. In terms of dialogue, you only seem to need about 5 words every 2 panels.

[awe4one]

Doesn't seem that hard to write a comic nowadays. In terms of dialogue, you only seem to need about 5 words every 2 panels.

 

And since you're a young comic reader, does that work for you?

 

Jim

[shrunkenhead]

But will I buy #2? Yeah, I will. Like I said, I like to collect the Bat in all his aspects...the good, the bad, and the ugly. And boy is this one ugly.

 

But aren't you then just encouraging more of the same from DC later? The responsible thing is to stop buying the comic and hope, though I admit it's a false expectation, that DC will get the message...

 

Jim

 

I understand where you're coming from, but like I said, to me it's just another "bat-mite" moment, and I like those too. I guess it's admittedly sort of hard to explain my position...the best I can liken it to is that Neil Young and the Shocking Pinks album from the eighties. It's wretched, yet I love it so because of how wretched it is and just how fascinating it is to me to stack it up with the great Neil Young works (ducking for cover). Know what I'm saying?