Do creators charge too much for signatures?
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4 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Even if they did, it would still be irrrelevant, because:

1. It's a signature, not work-for-hire. 

2  It's no one's business what someone else chooses to do with their property.

3. The "friend" could use that "logo" and potentially make millions of dollars off of it, while the "corporation" could commission the work, decide it doesn't suit them, and shelve it forever. What someone *may* use it for is none of the service provider's business. 

4. The idea that "they are most likely gonna sell for $100" is no bearing on the conversation, for the reasons stated elsewhere ad nauseum. The "$100" isn't for the signature.

5. No one has a problem with creators signing their friends' books for free. 

The arguments supporting discrimination are all bad ones, and eventually, the addicts will wake up and stop it.

I agree with everything you've said here.  Except the bolded part.  

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1 hour ago, the blob said:

Because you say so?

No, because it is.

1 hour ago, the blob said:

Anyway, this might be the third time we have engaged in this same debate so I am tuning out. 

Indeed...that's why I didn't go into any reasons: you find discussion unpalatable. Not a problem. If you are interested, I can point you to other threads where it is explained in great detail.

1 hour ago, the blob said:

I am perplexed how a guy who is in favor of $2 an hour wages in the USA if that is what the market will bear is enraged by guys charging what the market will allow for totally unnecessary luxury stuff.

No doubt, you are perplexed, but there's no need for the emotionally tinged language. No one is "enraged." As I said, this has been explained over and over again, and if you're interested, I can point you to those discussions. I can't make you understand, though, so if you can't understand, or won't understand, I'm of no further help to you. Let me give you the major hint, though: it has nothing whatsoever to do with economics, and everything to do with discrimination.

1 hour ago, the blob said:

If you feel that it is unfair that you as a pure collector get charged a flipper premium for a SS book then befriend these creators and let them know you're different so that you should get the non-CGC rate.

It's weird to see people arguing in favor of discrimination, but hey, that's life.

These are the facts:

1. Creators should charge whatever they want. $0, $5, $50, $5,000. It's their signature, they can and should charge whatever they want.

2. Those suggesting that anyone is saying otherwise are lying.

3. Creators should not charge different prices for the exact same service, because it is discrimination.

4. Those suggesting they should end up hurting creators in the long run.

5. It's no one else's business what someone does with their own property.

6. Appeals to emotion are logical fallacies.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/29/Appeal-to-Emotion

Edited by RockMyAmadeus

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7 minutes ago, chrisco37 said:
12 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

The arguments supporting discrimination are all bad ones, and eventually, the addicts will wake up and stop it.

I agree with everything you've said here.  Except the bolded part.  

Yeah, I know. Wishful thinking on my part. Me and my facilitator are engaged in this same struggle ourselves. 

:(

 

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It's no one's business what someone decides to sell their sig for and how much to who barring race sex religion sexual orientation.

Edited by kav

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 You can (try to) argue all this to Kneel Atoms and I'm sure he'd just look at you and say "$100".

The end.

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50 minutes ago, the blob said:

If they charge too much people will stop paying. If adams charges $50 to sign books and people are paying, I guess it is not too much? A lot of these guys (not so much Adams who I assume is worth several million and can make a living cranking out head sketches at $350 a pop until physically unable) need to make whatever they can while they can. They don't have pensions (not that many do nowadays). I don't blame them one bit. Look at George Perez. Your health can go bad quickly. Soon he will be unable to see what he is drawing. Nursing care is expensive. Assisted living is expensive. An older person who wants to live decently but needs nurses or assisted living can easily spend $10-$15,000 a month depending on their needs. Not to mention his wife. You don't want to be old and broke. A friend of mine's father is a lawyer, 76. Always made a good living, but 3 divorces (he lost the family home each time), alimony, and child support for 2 kids cut into any ability to save. He now has parkinsons and will soon be unable to work. He is looking at having to be roommates with his adult daughter because he cannot afford to live on his own on social security. Getting old sucks.

RMA, dunno why you are confused. You're 46. If you plan on getting old you should think about this stuff if you haven't already. But I suspect you have thought about it. These guys need to make a living somehow. I know it makes getting your SS books more expensive, but that's life. I am not going to begrudge some guy/gal who has created some lasting stuff in pop culture some bucks when ho hum lawyers in my neck of the woods are getting paid $800-$1200 an hour for their time.

 

I'm confused because I don't understand how someone gets to a certain age, and doesn't realize that life choices, how one chooses to live, has a direct bearing on what situations one finds oneself, at all stages of life. Your arguments are made from emotion, not reason. "But what about the guy who's been divorced 3 times? He's broke!" Yes...and do you think he bears any responsibility for those divorces...? That's life!

If I gave you enough of a sob story, I have no doubt I could convince you to flip your entire argument: "RMA can't afford to live, and all he has is SS books. If you charge him more, he'll have to move into a van down the river, and then what will he do? He needs to make a living somehow!" So, you're going to begrudge the guy who might be eking out a living getting junk books signed, because that's all he has, when ho hum artists are getting $250 a page for their time, and make millions in royalties....?

These aren't rational arguments. Again: the issue has nothing to do with economics, and everything to do with discrimination.

You're an attorney, not an economist. I'll give you a little insight into economics, here, if you won't be offended: charging people different prices based on assumptions is dangerous, economically, because it tends to alienate people.

I have, in my possession, a short box of books that I have had ready for...literally, now...8 years. I am ready, willing, and able to get those books signed by a certain creator. I have dutifully carried those books around with me, HOPING against hope that they would sign them for what I am willing to pay. 

There are a few more than 150 books. I was prepared to pay, last May & October, $10/book to have them signed. The creator's art rep refused, insisting that it was $20 or nothing. Now...to the rep's credit, they charge a FLAT FEE, regardless of where it goes to, which I support 10,000,000%.

Think in terms of economics: how much does that creator make if he signs 0 of my books?

Right, $0.

If he signs all of my books, he makes $1500. And though it's none of your or my business, *I* think $1500 for half an hour of signing is pretty darn lucrative.

If he charges $20, he signs none, and makes $0.

If he charges $10, he signs all, and makes $1500.

These guys need the money...right? That's your argument. I don't agree with your premise, as it's none of your OR my business what these guys may or may not need, but for the sake of the argument, let's say you're correct.

$10 each = 150 books signed = $1500

$20 each = 0 books signed = $0

Now...economically...which is the correct choice?

Oh, and I'm not alone, by the way.

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5 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I'm confused because I don't understand how someone gets to a certain age, and doesn't realize that life choices, how one chooses to live, has a direct bearing on what situations one finds oneself, at all stages of life. Your arguments are made from emotion, not reason. "But what about the guy who's been divorced 3 times? He's broke!" Yes...and do you think he bears any responsibility for those divorces...? That's life!

If I gave you enough of a sob story, I have no doubt I could convince you to flip your entire argument: "RMA can't afford to live, and all he has is SS books. If you charge him more, he'll have to move into a van down the river, and then what will he do? He needs to make a living somehow!" So, you're going to begrudge the guy who might be eking out a living getting junk books signed, because that's all he has, when ho hum artists are getting $250 a page for their time, and make millions in royalties....?

These aren't rational arguments. Again: the issue has nothing to do with economics, and everything to do with discrimination.

You're an attorney, not an economist. I'll give you a little insight into economics, here, if you won't be offended: charging people different prices based on assumptions is dangerous, economically, because it tends to alienate people.

I have, in my possession, a short box of books that I have had ready for...literally, now...8 years. I am ready, willing, and able to get those books signed by a certain creator. I have dutifully carried those books around with me, HOPING against hope that they would sign them for what I am willing to pay. 

There are a few more than 150 books. I was prepared to pay, last May & October, $10/book to have them signed. The creator's art rep refused, insisting that it was $20 or nothing. Now...to the rep's credit, they charge a FLAT FEE, regardless of where it goes to, which I support 10,000,000%.

Think in terms of economics: how much does that creator make if he signs 0 of my books?

Right, $0.

If he signs all of my books, he makes $1500. And though it's none of your or my business, *I* think $1500 for half an hour of signing is pretty darn lucrative.

If he charges $20, he signs none, and makes $0.

If he charges $10, he signs all, and makes $1500.

These guys need the money...right? That's your argument. I don't agree with your premise, as it's none of your OR my business what these guys may or may not need, but for the sake of the argument, let's say you're correct.

$10 each = 150 books signed = $1500

$20 each = 0 books signed = $0

Now...economically...which is the correct choice?

Oh, and I'm not alone, by the way.

You're wrong.

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2 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Not even remotely. But hey, that's life.

I love it when libertarians get mad when the free market negatively impacts them.

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If I tell my dentist look I need an implant-you charge $5000.  The implant costs $300, and you will spend 3 hours.  How bout I give you $2000, thats still $1700 for 3 hours work-pretty good.  Or no implant and you get 0. 

He will just stare at me.  That argument is invalid, for a number of reasons.

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Just now, the blob said:

I love it when libertarians get mad when the free market negatively impacts them.

That's an argument from emotion, not reason.

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How much does K Eastman charge for a sig and a quick turtle head which by now is really his sig?  Also, do you think artist should charge more for a "quick" sketch? I personally love a little spidey head or a cap shield but second hand acquisition of these slabbed are cray cray. 

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Didn't this argument run its course 3 months ago or 6 months before that?

Edited by 1Cool

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Just now, 1Cool said:

Didn't this argument run its course 3 months ago or 6 months before that?

Nothing ever runs its course here.

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The pot is always simmering.  Everyone once in a while, it gets stirred.

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Just now, KPR Comics said:

The pot is always simmering.  Everyone once in a while, it gets stirred.

Yes, but who is the chef........? 

hm

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On the one hand we have the side that says creators should be able to charge whatever they want.  On the other we have the side that says no they shouldnt because-

Thats the whole thing in a nutshell.

In reality creators ARE free to charge whatever they want and no amount of complaining has any effect whatsoever.

The end.

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The only sig I've really tried to get was one from Joe Rubenstein, got it for like $5, and one from Neal Adams, I don't remember exactly how much it was, but it cost upwards of like $40, which just seemed ridiculous to me considering I paid way less for the book he was going to sign. I didn't get the sig.

Obviously they can charge however much they want for their signature. It's called capitalism. I just wish some of 'em could be cheaper, and that creators would do it for the fans not the money.

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2 minutes ago, HuddyBee said:

The only sig I've really tried to get was one from Joe Rubenstein, got it for like $5, and one from Neal Adams, I don't remember exactly how much it was, but it cost upwards of like $40, which just seemed ridiculous to me considering I paid way less for the book he was going to sign. I didn't get the sig.

Obviously they can charge however much they want for their signature. It's called capitalism. I just wish some of 'em could be cheaper, and that creators would do it for the fans not the money.

They would, and did, then they saw the flippers lining their pockets and went 'wait a minute'.

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