The fallacy of "IH181 is overvalued/overpriced" 5 5

[sfcityduck]

28 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

"They are the new class of comic 101 who think it's an important enough key to invest in, paying stupid prices be damned."

That`s very important to point out. I know some older collectors who won't give Hulk #181,NM#98, ASM#300,STAR WARS #1 and ASM#129 respect because they remember getting them in dollar boxes, so to them they can't fathom how these comic book keys and other keys can go for so much money now. Their mindset is still set to what they paid for them or saw what they went for many decades ago.

An example would be ROM #1 which goes for a decent price now,but to that certain old time collector to them it will always be a .25 cent comic because that`s where they remember seeing it a lot in .25 cent boxes when they were younger.

Does this "new class of comic 101" collectors really exist?  Another local store just closed in SF.  Most comic stores I walk into are more book shops than back issue shops.  And I read many posts about folks "stocking up" on hot issues like IH 181.  So is the market for this book at starting prices of what? $1,500 in 3.0? really made up of the "new class of comic 101" collectors, or is it longer term collectors/speculators?  I ask this question seriously, because I just do not know.  Dealers on this site should know and I'm curious what they have to say.  

When it came out, even though I bought it, I though that Rom #1 was a crappy book.  With the exception of a few Golden covers, the art and story for that series are terrible.  It's a pale shadow of Micronauts in the little kid toy inspired comic genre. 

Get off of my lawn and turn down your music. 

[sfcityduck]

On 3/12/2019 at 9:25 AM, miraclemet said:

One of the reasons that the beanie baby market crashed was that the only people that collected beanie babies at collector prices were the people who collected them for value purposes. People (or more notably kids) who just wanted a beanie baby could buy a new one for retail rather than pay the inflated rate for retired ones. The only people who were willing to pay the higher prices were people who were collecting in hopes of the prices going up, so it a 100% self enforcing market, which doesn't last. Maybe if Beanie babies could have lasted long enough to the point where kids of the 2000s were wanting to collect their youth they could have built a collectors market. Markets need a mix of speculators (or dealers) and collectors. If the equation weighs to heavily in either direction, the market tumbles. For Beanie Babies over extension with McDonalds may have pushed it to an early death. Luckilly comics has a mix of collectors and dealers, and the product is not as static (every issue is different) as beanie babies (difference are not important to many of their collectors, a brown bear is a brown bear, with only the dealer/speculator differentiating between the '97 bear and the '98 bear, while everyone sees a difference between IH181 and IH197)

but it is a cautionary tale for sure (looking at you modern speculators buying the incentive covers!)

Good analysis. 

However, one impression conveyed by many of the threads on this board are that there is a large segment of comic collectors who collect only "for value purposes."  

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

30 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

Does this "new class of comic 101" collectors really exist?  Another local store just closed in SF.  Most comic stores I walk into are more book shops than back issue shops.  And I read many posts about folks "stocking up" on hot issues like IH 181.  So is the market for this book at starting prices of what? $1,500 in 3.0? really made up of the "new class of comic 101" collectors, or is it longer term collectors/speculators?  I ask this question seriously, because I just do not know.  Dealers on this site should know and I'm curious what they have to say.  

When it came out, even though I bought it, I though that Rom #1 was a crappy book.  With the exception of a few Golden covers, the art and story for that series are terrible.  It's a pale shadow of Micronauts in the little kid toy inspired comic genre. 

Get off of my lawn and turn down your music. 

Rom went on to become a better comic book than Micronauts. Yep Micronauts 1-12 by Golden is a classic, but overall the whole Rom run is a better read than the whole Micronauts run.

So while Micronauts started out great it fizzled in the end compared to Rom.

Good article here about Rom.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/rom-spaceknight-might-be-the-best-science-fiction-comi-1708849468

Rom had this nice 1950s sci-fi movie feel to it. It became a cult classic for many people. The same writer of Micronauts also wrote Rom. Bill Mantlo. In fact Rom outlasted Micronauts  as Rom lasted 75 issues to Micronauts 59 issues.

Rom might get the respect it deserves once he appears in a Transformers film like Hasbro says it will do.

Rom is a major sleeper. A decent appearance in the Transformers movie series and these Rom comics could take off.

So yeah I thought the SpaceKnight was cool. lol.

 

Edited March 14, 2019 by ComicConnoisseur

[sfcityduck]

1 minute ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

Rom went on to become a better comic book than Micronauts. Yep Micronauts 1-12 by Golden is a classic, but overall the whole Rom run is a better read than the whole Micronauts run.

 

You meant to say - Micronauts became worse than Rom.  

I dumped Micronauts and Rom in the 20s, probably only having started the series because they were new no. 1s.  They were undoubtedly trail blazers in the Bronze/Copper little kid toys inspired comic genre, but aside from the Golden run on Micronauts, they didn't hold up well when compared to other comics coming out in that time period.  At least for me.  I was a young teen when Rom and Micronauts came out, and was far more interested in the Miller DD, Byrne X-Men, Perez Avengers and JLA and NTT, the Cerebus High Society period, etc.,   It was an exciting time for comics. 

[sfcityduck]

16 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

 

 

[Logan510]

On 3/12/2019 at 10:42 AM, 1Cool said:

They better hurry up or Hugh Jackman is going to be too old to even play Old Man Logan.  They can bring in a new actor but I'm worried Jackman has been typecast as the only Wolverine and all other actors will fail miserably.  But even if Wolverine is reinvented are you saying a Hulk vs Wolverine battle is grounds for the doubling of IH 181?  That better be a damn good movie considering how good Logan was and prices still skyrocketed after that movie.

They replaced Connery as James Bond, they can find someone else to do a krappy version of Wolverine too.

[Jaylam]

I know this has been debated ad nauseum, but give me this last page of Hulk #180 over the official 1st full appearance in #181 any day. How #180 isn't valued higher than it is (about 1/5th the value of Hulk #181 in general) is beyond me. This is the strongest so called " first appearance cameo" ever. I mean sheesh; large panel and whole body shot. Doesn't get much better than that for a "first appearance".

Edited March 14, 2019 by Jaylam

[FineCollector]

2 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

Does this "new class of comic 101" collectors really exist?  Another local store just closed in SF.  Most comic stores I walk into are more book shops than back issue shops.  And I read many posts about folks "stocking up" on hot issues like IH 181.  So is the market for this book at starting prices of what? $1,500 in 3.0? really made up of the "new class of comic 101" collectors, or is it longer term collectors/speculators?  I ask this question seriously, because I just do not know.  Dealers on this site should know and I'm curious what they have to say. 

Not a dealer, but I do agree that the new guys are willing to spend.  $100 seems to be their comfort level, because modern "keys" like Batman Damned or Immortal Hulk have been getting there quickly.  Watch some of those Facebook live auctions, and people are spending well over top dollar to get in on the fun.  It's an entirely different population of comic buyers than what we have here.  They don't seem to know how common things are, they just want stuff.  Hulk 181 might be out of their range, though.  I think flippers and dealers are slowing inching up the price by selling to each other until they hit the ceiling.

[Callaway29]

30 minutes ago, Jaylam said:

I know this has been debated ad nauseum, but give me this last page of Hulk #180 over the official 1st full appearance in #181 any day. How #180 isn't valued higher than it is (about 1/5th the value of Hulk #181 in general) is beyond me. This is the strongest so called " first appearance cameo" ever. I mean sheesh; large panel and whole body shot. Doesn't get much better than that for a "first appearance".

+1 million

[Lazyboy]

59 minutes ago, Jaylam said:

Doesn't get much better than that for a "first appearance".

Sure it does. Examples would include ANYTHING WITH MORE THAN ONE PANEL AND THE CHARACTER ACTUALLY MATTERING IN THE STORY!

[comicwiz]

3 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

Does this "new class of comic 101" collectors really exist?  Another local store just closed in SF.  Most comic stores I walk into are more book shops than back issue shops.  And I read many posts about folks "stocking up" on hot issues like IH 181.  So is the market for this book at starting prices of what? $1,500 in 3.0? really made up of the "new class of comic 101" collectors, or is it longer term collectors/speculators?  I ask this question seriously, because I just do not know.  Dealers on this site should know and I'm curious what they have to say.  

I don't think half the dealers you can name in a pinch have leveraged social media in a manner where they would ever notice. I've immersed myself in socmed through a wide range of collectible categories, and while there is a greater overlap happening in the last year, the common characteristic everyone shares in the Facebook and Instagram sharing culture is this appetite to gain kinship by seeking out the handful of keys everyone thinks you need to own to be taken seriously as a collector. IH181 is one of those books. Until you see it happening in front of your eyes, you can't wrap your head around it, and in the context of my comment, you simply wouldn't see this dynamic ever play out on these forums, and I've been here since '02 and can assure you that IH181 was not a book that had the same cachet it enjoys now. The generational gap and migration to sites like Facebook is a big factor in this change.

[NoMan]

I don't see it. Don't see any or it.

Kids today don't collect comics. They don't care. Of course your wonderful children and their friend or two love to read and they know ASM 129 from Rom 1 to IH 181 to what-the-heck ever, however, the majority of young people today want and do stare at screens all day. They don't read anything tangible nor do they care to hence no nostalgic factor for a comic book. That means in 20 - 25 years mostly no one is gonna want your precious collection entombed in plastic. 

I don't care how well the MCU movies are doing now. (When I get really bored I go to movie section of the boards and see people arguing about grosses and have to laugh. You guys got points in these films or something?) The majority of of kids (and adults, sadly) would watch a monkey throw its waste matter discharged from its bowels on a wall if that's what was playing at the multiplex. I've worked in the entertainment industry in Los Angeles for 30 years and that's how the head honchos talk about you, Dear MCU Fanatics. I KNOW YOUR CHILDREN ARE SPECIAL AND LIKE TO READ AND WANT QUALITY ENTERTAINMENT. AND THEIR FRIENDS! I'm simply talking about the majority of young people. A couple of smart kids brought up by a couple of smart folks here can't support this hobby. 

I don't care how many people flood conventions. It's all dress up. Most cosplay girls look like harlots off to the strip club and get mad when the guys look at 'em. The guys, hell, I don't know what their deal is. It's creative and at least people aren't shooting each other, so it's all good. The point is the comic back issue folks are shoved off to a tiny corner. Why? Because selling comic books IS NOT THE DRAW like it used to be because the majority of people aren't buying. Duh! 

Some of you here see back issue market booming cause that's all you know. It's what all your friends do. It's like going to a Narcotics Anonymous meeting and thinking everyone in the world is shooting heroin in the vein that runs between your big toe and the toe next to it. No, the entire world is not doing that. Just you and your dumb friends. 

I say this not to be mean. I'm in the same boat. I have many nice comics and one phenomenally nice one. I betting that someone in 25 years just might be interested in the phenomenally nice one, the others, not so much. 

The talk here is 95% what something is worth or what something will be worth. The other 5%, unfortunately, is if something is a good read. Tells it all right there, doesn't it?

Pull your head out of your long boxes and look around.

Not even the Chinese can save this hobby.

And BTW,  if you think variants are a smart buy, you're unreachable. But please keep buying them, cause I think it's kinda funny and makes me laugh.

AND another BTW, before some one blathers but that's what I like to collect so that's what important! (variants, 9.8s in plastic, can it be a 9.9 with a press? MCU movies on streaming whatever) Again, no duh! Enjoy away. That's what life is about but know this: No one in the future will want them. And it will be a hassle for someone to deal with once you're dead, just like your Grandma's little QVC Home Shopping Club POS collectables. Heck, even your Dad's stamp/coin collection. But! But! But that upside down airmail stamp is still worth a lot of money. Yes! And the others?

Are there even that many of us here? 

 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2019 by NoMan

[3319comics]

Is there any concern of the explosion in prices of comic book in general. Can the worth keep pace? I don't think the current books coming out being worth hundreds of dollars and worth more than older keys make sense to me. And I think is not healthy for the comicbook collecting industry. However can all these books keep going up so fast just cause of whispers of a show or movie be good?

[Jaylam]

 

[Jaylam]

Here's something that I find intriguing. Darkseid's first appearance in cameo in Jimmy Olsen #134 is about 3X the value of his first full appearance in Forever People #1, totally the opposite of the Wolverine appearances and yet that small cameo in JO #134 pales in comparison to Wolverine's cameo in IH #180. 

[gadzukes]

2 hours ago, Jaylam said:

I know this has been debated ad nauseum, but give me this last page of Hulk #180 over the official 1st full appearance in #181 any day. How #180 isn't valued higher than it is (about 1/5th the value of Hulk #181 in general) is beyond me. This is the strongest so called " first appearance cameo" ever. I mean sheesh; large panel and whole body shot. Doesn't get much better than that for a "first appearance".

This first appearance beats Doomsdays "fist" cameos by a lot.

[Lazyboy]

2 hours ago, Jaylam said:

Here's something that I find intriguing. Darkseid's first appearance in cameo in Jimmy Olsen #134 is about 3X the value of his first full appearance in Forever People #1, totally the opposite of the Wolverine appearances and yet that small cameo in JO #134 pales in comparison to Wolverine's cameo in IH #180.

I find it more intriguing that so many people keep posting this as if they're so ignorant that they're unaware of the most simple and basic principle of economics: supply and demand.

[Jaylam]

12 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

I find it more intriguing that so many people keep posting this as if they're so ignorant that they're unaware of the most simple and basic principle of economics: supply and demand.

Not only intriguing, but...

[kav]

13 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

I find it more intriguing that so many people keep posting this as if they're so ignorant that they're unaware of the most simple and basic principle of economics: supply and demand.

Maybe you can explain it to all the dummies.

[Lazyboy]

4 minutes ago, kav said:

Maybe you can explain it to all the dummies.

I have many times, but the same post keeps popping up.