Heritage May 16 - 18 Comic Art Signature Auction - Chicago
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, tth2 said:

Because the rhetoric in this thread was that the only thing the page was good for was bird cage lining, not to spend $200k, which in my piker's world is still a lot of money. 

I can't defeat arguments that are based on unknown, moving targets that people are able to pull out of their butts whenever necessary to win an argument.

I called it a great piece and said that the sigs were unfortunate, but not a dealbreaker. (shrug) 

Moving the target tm & copyright 2019 tth2 is practically your signature move, you should have it trademarked or copyrighted or something. :idea: 

Edited by delekkerste

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The collector that bought it is thrilled, and I don't think the signatures made any difference. 

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5 hours ago, delekkerste said:

I kind of feel like this is happening on a smaller scale in our hobby. At this point in my collecting career, I feel like I've been priced out of most of my all-time favorite pieces if they were to ever become available, while the prices on the material that is still potentially within reach are now so high that I have to keep my powder dry for these and not blow cash on anything that isn't truly in the top 1 or 2 % of my want list. 

As such, my true "must-have" want list, of things that are both likely to be attainable and available at some point, is down to probably less than 5 medium-to-high end items, plus a few low-to-medium end items.  I'm just glad I acquired what I did when I did, because if I was starting out from scratch today, I'd probably just be looking to build a collection of maybe 10-20 great pieces; there's no way I could build out anywhere near the collection I have starting from 2019 prices. Would wager that almost no one collecting for more than 15 years would be able to at this point. 2c 

I am essentially starting from scratch, though I have been watching the market since a little before 2016 (and occasionally participating on a low level). 

I saved up enough cash to have a crack of some of the nicer stuff that I might want, but instead just plunked it down on a house on a mountain with ocean views.  The housing market has already sagged in the area, so I couldn't turn it down.  The same can't be said for art yet, even though my tastes aren't exactly mainstream (I'd go for GA before most anything else).

The only down side is now I have three times more wall space and nothing to hang!

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That Frazetta Egyptian Queen auction was no where near as exciting as I thought it would be. I thought there would be some competition. But then I grew up watching the auction scenes in North by Northwest and Octopussy.

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1 hour ago, GeneticNinja said:

That Frazetta Egyptian Queen auction was no where near as exciting as I thought it would be. I thought there would be some competition. But then I grew up watching the auction scenes in North by Northwest and Octopussy.

To keep the video interesting it would be great if some John Wick-style action broke out among bidders every so often.  Todd, Jim, Joe, Nadia, can you make that hahppen? 

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4 hours ago, glendgold said:

To keep the video interesting it would be great if some John Wick-style action broke out among bidders every so often.  Todd, Jim, Joe, Nadia, can you make that hahppen? 

I like going to or watching auctions. I find that one guy at Heritage who always says something like great pieces make great collections, their best auction seller. He always seems to be entertaining.

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32 minutes ago, GeneticNinja said:

I like going to or watching auctions. I find that one guy at Heritage who always says something like great pieces make great collections, their best auction seller. He always seems to be entertaining.

Agreed. If you like cheap entertainment, go to a bankruptcy auction for higher end furniture, or rugs—the stuff they couldn’t sell at their 65% mark-up at retail. A good auctioneer trying desperately to get bids is fun. Also, a good way to get nice stuff for the office or home. I ended up with more Persian/oriental rugs than I can almost count.

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1 hour ago, GeneticNinja said:

I like going to or watching auctions. I find that one guy at Heritage who always says something like great pieces make great collections, their best auction seller. He always seems to be entertaining.

My HA favorite is "The more you bid, the more it's worth!" lady. Also can be seen occasionally on Antiques Roadshow. 

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Did anyone else notice how forced the clapping was?   She seemed to completely forget to encourage any clapping despite a 5M sale until reminded by the crowd . 

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9 hours ago, BCarter27 said:

For those in the market for the next headlining Frazetta oil, be very wary about the actual comp here.

B I N G O !!

Especially at the 'headline' number of 5.4m, which the more I think about it...is very probably not the actual amount of cash that will move from one bank account to another.

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6 hours ago, glendgold said:

To keep the video interesting it would be great if some John Wick-style action broke out among bidders every so often.  Todd, Jim, Joe, Nadia, can you make that hahppen? 

That video will never be played again. Anywhere. Ever. Guaranteed.

(unless one of you guys saved it!)

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13 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Did anyone else notice how forced the clapping was?   She seemed to completely forget to encourage any clapping despite a 5M sale until reminded by the crowd . 

A piped-in Three's Company laugh track would have been more appropriate ;)

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, vodou said:

B I N G O !!

Especially at the 'headline' number of 5.4m, which the more I think about it...is very probably not the actual amount of cash that will move from one bank account to another.

Oh I disagree.   The 5.4m will move IMO.  You have to remember that even if the buyer is Jim, he has all sorts of reasons to pay the full BP.   For legal reasons, for the perception of a level playing field, so that the number reported is accurate, etc etc etc.   That amount will get paid by the buyer because anything else would from my POV potentially  cause HA/Jim legal and business problems.   Who needs the headache?  You can’t be accused of giving yourself an advatange when you pay the same fees as everyone else.   Now maybe some of that BP eventually comes back to him as profit but that’s a separate transaction or rather , series of transactions because a large outfit like heritage is almost never a single corporation, it’s a whole corporate group, with different companies for different purposes, holding coamonies etc.    For that income to flow back to Jim it has to likely filter through several transactions 

Edited by Bronty

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7 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Oh I disagree.   The 5.4m will move IMO.  You have to remember that even if the buyer is Jim, he has all sorts of reasons to pay the full BP.   For legal reasons, for the perception of a level playing field, so that the number reported is accurate, etc etc etc.   That amount will get paid by the buyer because anything else would from my POV cause HA/Jim legal and business problems.    You can’t be accused of giving yourself an advatange when you pay the same fees as everyone else.   Now maybe some of that BP eventually comes back to him as profit but that’s a separate transaction or rather , series of transactions because a large outfit like heritage is almost never a single corporation, it’s a whole corporate group, with different companies for different purposes, holding coamonies etc.    For that income to flow back to Jim it has to likely filter through several transactions 

This "sale" reeks of guarantee. What's quite pertinent is: "who" was the guarantor?

Bronty, you should look more into guarantees and how they work generically. We all should also understand that HA has been in the business of acquiring tremendous single lots and collections in non-comic art categories for a very long time. Their core business has always been coins/currency; guarantees, I'm certain, are not "new" to their business model.

An auction guarantee behaves like an insurance contract (actually, not behaves but "is"). There are stated coverage terms and a premium set against those terms. All terms are negotiable (of course) unless a boilerplate version is accepted at face value. I don't know what HA's boilerplate for this looks like (anybody..?), so I don't know if it includes BP being assessed against the guarantor or not, or is somehow otherwise accounted for, but...it's kind of hard to imagine? Unless I was getting some other equally or more valuable consideration, that's not a contract I'd be likely to sign! For this kind of money (not $5k in other words), BP valued at $900k would be a very negotiable term. This all assuming a third-party guarantor. Now...if the risk wasn't laid off to a third-party, then...HA is going to pay itself the BP?! Okay. Maybe. And that's the value of "privately held" incorporation right there, pulling money out of one pocket to put it in the other pocket....mmm-hmmmm ;)

Now another interesting possibility is that the guarantor is the consignor or another Frazetta family member, maybe "paid for" by future consignments, etc....which would be a lot more like a reserve not a guarantee, but in Texas (or Chicago!) who knows...Wild, Wild West with all this non-transparency. Dallas is becoming more like NYC every day.

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, vodou said:

A piped-in Three's Company laugh track would have been more appropriate ;)

Not directed at you.   I understand the sarcasm given the nature of the sale but I see zero problem with it.   

A) anyone could have bid more if they wanted to

B) someone is paying the bill

C) Sure, the house may be invested in promoting the sale.   But so what?   As long as B) is covered who cares?    It’s not much different than the collector selling an AF 7.0 that bids up the 6.0 in the same sale to help his own consignment?    That happens all day, every day.    People bid with *all kinds* of different motivations and we are all big boys and girls here.    Pay or don’t pay - no one has a gun to your head.   I don’t give a dam about anyone’s motivations because they are varied and obscure.   All that it boils down to is price and payment and as long as that’s sacrosanct, there’s really no issue IMO

Edited by Bronty

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, vodou said:

This "sale" reeks of guarantee. What's quite pertinent is: "who" was the guarantor?

Bronty, you should look more into guarantees and how they work generically. We all should also understand that HA has been in the business of acquiring tremendous single lots and collections in non-comic art categories for a very long time. Their core business has always been coins/currency; guarantees, I'm certain, are not "new" to their business model.

An auction guarantee behaves like an insurance contract (actually, not behaves but "is"). There are stated coverage terms and a premium set against those terms. All terms are negotiable (of course) unless a boilerplate version is accepted at face value. I don't know what HA's boilerplate for this looks like (anybody..?), so I don't know if it includes BP being assessed against the guarantor or not, or is somehow otherwise accounted for, but...it's kind of hard to imagine? Unless I was getting some other equally or more valuable consideration, that's not a contract I'd be likely to sign! For this kind of money (not $5k in other words), BP valued at $900k would be a very negotiable term. This all assuming a third-party guarantor. Now...if the risk wasn't laid off to a third-party, then...HA is going to pay itself the BP?! Okay. Maybe. And that's the value of "privately held" incorporation right there, pulling money out of one pocket to put it in the other pocket....mmm-hmmmm ;)

Now another interesting possibility is that the guarantor is the consignor or another Frazetta family member, maybe "paid for" by future consignments, etc....which would be a lot more like a reserve not a guarantee, but in Texas (or Chicago!) who knows...Wild, Wild West with all this non-transparency. Dallas is becoming more like NYC every day.

Well let’s think through the mechanics.  Sure the premiums can be negotiated as to who gets what cut, but there’s still a 5.4m check being cut from one entity to another.

if the consignor negotiates better terms, they simply get a better cut.   At least as I understand it.

Edited by Bronty

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1 minute ago, Bronty said:

we are all big boys and girls here. 

I very strongly disagree. We all know that people who otherwise are absolutely excellent at handicapping their primary source of income (hedgies, traders, tech innovators, etc) as to risk/reward and achieving incredible levels of success by all measures...get friggin' stupid when they confuse passion and logic in the art world. I get it. You get it. Half of the readers here, maybe get it, but the other half...L O L. There's always at least one newb that posts in these kinds of threads, something along the lines of golly, gee whiz, does that really happen? for realz?!! I think we've already seen that post, at least once, in this thread and another similar in the last week. My posts are directed toward them. Not you. Not Gene. And certainly not Jim Halperin lol

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6 minutes ago, vodou said:

I very strongly disagree. We all know that people who otherwise are absolutely excellent at handicapping their primary source of income (hedgies, traders, tech innovators, etc) as to risk/reward and achieving incredible levels of success by all measures...get friggin' stupid when they confuse passion and logic in the art world. I get it. You get it. Half of the readers here, maybe get it, but the other half...L O L. There's always at least one newb that posts in these kinds of threads, something along the lines of golly, gee whiz, does that really happen? for realz?!! I think we've already seen that post, at least once, in this thread and another similar in the last week. My posts are directed toward them. Not you. Not Gene. And certainly not Jim Halperin lol

Okay, I can buy that.    How about "we are mostly adults here and responsible for our own choices" then.

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3 minutes ago, Bronty said:

premiums

I think you may be confused. I reference premium re: contract, the quid pro quo for the guarantee terms. That's most often a split of proceeds over and above the strike price. I'm pretty sure that strike was 4.5m and there is nothing to split above. BP, SP, etc...who knows on that, all we can do is guess, which is what I will now do.

I'm thinking Frazetta family consignments have to be zero SP and a kickaback portion (a % only, negative SP less guarantee premium!) of BP over and above guarantee amount....but only IF over and above happens. It did not. Thus: guarantor gets the lot for bid only, House either is guarantor and gets the lot or gets the guarantee amount payment from third-party (no BP unless it's Jim and games are being played), and consignor gets bid only nothing additional to split or otherwise "take" in any manner. My guess.

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1 minute ago, Bronty said:

How about "we are mostly adults here and responsible for our own choices" then.

Sure. Doesn't mean we only "help" our friends that we personally know though, does it? I'm a friend to all. Even those that think I wouldn't be ;)

A little education brought in from outside the cloistered world of collectibles, such a bad thing? C'mon...do we really have to take the rubes for everything in their wallet? Not me. I'm okay with 80%, leaving enough for them to go home, earn some more and come back again tomorrow :)  It's the Las Vegas model lol 

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