Avengers: Endgame SPOILERS
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Buying the rights to develop something for the movies and actually developing it are two different things. Buying the rights allows you to be first in line. The other allows you to continue to use the character, essentially owning the rights to it for the use of movies and merchandise based on the movies. One is like renting the character, the other is as close to owning it as you can get. No one saw Iron Man as viable enough to make a movie. They took a look. tossed around ideas, tried to make a plan, and... then passed the opportunity off. Which is unfortunate, as Marvel would go on to develop it themselves, as you know, and make billions off of it.

But that was after they built "awareness for Iron Man from the general public, and put him on the same level of popularity as Spider-Man or Hulk" Which is what you do for your B-list characters. Increase awareness of them. Because they're not A-list. 

As comic book fans, especially Marvel ones, it's hard to sometimes remember that the world we are so fully aware of was completely alien to most people back in 1988. Aquaman was probably more well known than Iron Man at the time just because of the number of cartoons he appeared in. Those 1966 Marvel Cartoons had a very limited run and an extremely limited rebroadcast. I'm not sure I ever saw more than a passing glance of one on TV myself, but really saw more of it on bootleg VHS 20 years later. Because I was a comic book fan.

None of that is to downplay the characters themselves. They've both proven that done correctly, they're A+ revenue streams of extreme value. 

 

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I read what you mean. Meanwhile, Iron Man and Cap were never B-list characters since the Silver Age. They were front-and-center to much of the marketing and stories associated with Marvel.

And with Cap, they tried 3 times in movies to get him going, leading to direct-to-TV productions. Which the general audience would have seen, though then forgotten. Just like they did with the Spider-Man and Hulk live shows.

Cap_TV_Films01.PNG.5df86155343e7aeb174d7160e506cc6f.PNG

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On 4/27/2019 at 6:50 PM, Bosco685 said:

Someone on Reddit went out of their way to address the timeline paths. It's quite detailed.

4L6tN5u.png

 

wait did CA not also return Thors hammer to (checks chart) BT2?

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6 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

It's been pointed out before: When Marvel made the rights available for their characters, Spider-man, The Fantastic Four, and the X-Men got snatched up. Iron Man, Captain America and Thor did not. Studios just didn't see them as A-list characters capable of carrying a  movie....

 

And on the open market, everyone said no. Because after Spidey, FF and the X-Men, the perception was, the rest of those characters had no juice. They were 'what's left'. B-list or worse. The open market dictated their status. It wasn't what film rights sold FIRST. Their film rights couldn't sell at ALL.

 

And it makes sense. The FF and the X-Men have an easy pitch. The FF are a superpowered family. The Xmen are outcasts. The Avengers? Remember even their original comic conception was just a ripoff of DCs success with JLA: throw a bunch of your solo characters together to make a team. Theres no cohesion to them.

It would take WORK to create a thru-story for them, and work means investment, and no one had seen it work yet, so it would be a risk.

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32 minutes ago, miraclemet said:

And it makes sense. The FF and the X-Men have an easy pitch. The FF are a superpowered family. The Xmen are outcasts. The Avengers? Remember even their original comic conception was just a ripoff of DCs success with JLA: throw a bunch of your solo characters together to make a team. Theres no cohesion to them.

It would take WORK to create a thru-story for them, and work means investment, and no one had seen it work yet, so it would be a risk.

Does anything with superhero characters back then really have an easy pitch? We can think that as comic book fans. But reality is it took the success of an animated show for Fox to even move forward with the X-Men live film.

Quote

Marvel Comics writers and chief editors Gerry Conway and Roy Thomas wrote an X-Men screenplay in 1984 when Orion Pictures held an option on the film rights, but development stalled when Orion began facing financial troubles. Throughout 1989 and 1990, Stan Lee and Chris Claremont were in discussions with Carolco Pictures for an X-Men film adaptation, with James Cameron as producer and Kathryn Bigelow directing. A story treatment was written by Bigelow, with Bob Hoskins being considered for Wolverine and Angela Bassett being considered for the role of Storm. The deal fell apart when Stan Lee piqued Cameron's interest on a Spider-Man film, Carolco going bankrupt, and the film rights reverting to Marvel. In December 1992, Marvel discussed selling the property to Columbia Pictures to no avail. Meanwhile, Avi Arad produced the animated X-Men TV series for Fox Kids. 20th Century Fox was impressed by the success of the TV show, and producer Lauren Shuler Donner purchased the film rights for them in 1994, bringing Andrew Kevin Walker to write the -script.

If anything, one fair view on this is the early films (Blade, X-Men, Spider-Man) helped lay the groundwork for companies like Disney to determine there was a massive potential here. Though with Iron Man (April, 2008), this happened right before the December, 2009 final purchase. It sure helped reassure the Disney board they were going down the right path, and more open to take risks.

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I think its clear cap was always A list.

The argument I think also against Iron man not being A list because of his lack of "interest" in making a movie, I think is explained away in one word: Cost

 

You could not reasonably make a viewable Ironman movie until the advent of modern digital animation. The cost to try and portray a tech suit flying and doing all the things Ironman does would have crushed ANY studio that tried it. Its a lot easier to wire suit up a guy in tights flying without any means of propulsion then to try and portray (faithfully anyway) Ironman transforming, flying, fighting.

Why do you think Blade was the first "realistic" budget Marvel film? Was Blade such an A lister? No , its because it could be done for like 30-40 million dollars and not the 100-200 million Ironman would have cost (and looked a little suspect even then doing). Blade came first because being able to do it faithfully and for a reasonable budget mattered the most.

 

It cost to much to make a good looking Iron Man, so they made easier films like Blade, then X-men (no colossus mind you again due to costs), finally a guy wearing tights who swings on web ropes. Each one more and more ambitious costing more and more to make. Had they not had a glut of Cap movies before hand, I bet he would have come next but they wanted I think to let that hot mess die down before bringing him out in full glory.

 

 

 

I

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http://www.mtv.com/news/1552639/iron-man-thor-which-b-list-superhero-has-the-brawn-to-make-it-big/

This article from 2007 is a good time capsule that shows how characters like Iron Man and Thor were thought of before their movies came out. Iron Man was considered B-list. Spider-Man and Hulk were A-list because they were successful in TV and movies, but also I think more people collected their comics. Tony Stark was a downer in the comics until Robert Downey Jr transformed the character. Wolverine was A-list because he was the most popular character in the most popular comic book of all time, and then became a household name in 2000 after the movie.

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11 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

I think its clear cap was always A list.

I’m not sure I understand how.

Always a face of the Avengers in advertising but...

Never a top 3 comic seller for Marvel...

Two failed low budget movies... 

Marvel animation studios never even gave him a stand alone cartoon out of the 8 features they did...

Even in the MCU he was the 5th movie... they made 2 Iron Man movies before they ever did Cap...

And other than that Hulk movie, it’s the lowest grossing film in the whole run of the MCU. 

Serious question: What is it about him that makes him an A-list? 

Because Marvel wants him to be? Guardians of the Galaxy doubled ‘First Avenger’’’s box office and nobody even knew who they were.

It seems his claim to fame has always been as a leader of the Avengers, not as a solo hero.

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

http://www.mtv.com/news/1552639/iron-man-thor-which-b-list-superhero-has-the-brawn-to-make-it-big/

This article from 2007 is a good time capsule that shows how characters like Iron Man and Thor were thought of before their movies came out. Iron Man was considered B-list. Spider-Man and Hulk were A-list because they were successful in TV and movies, but also I think more people collected their comics. Tony Stark was a downer in the comics until Robert Downey Jr transformed the character. Wolverine was A-list because he was the most popular character in the most popular comic book of all time, and then became a household name in 2000 after the movie.

Referencing an MTV article to validate which characters would be considered B-List is an approach. But then you look at reality.

Even with the 1966 animated TV shows, who did Marvel have front-and-center.

  • Iron Man
  • Captain America
  • Hulk
  • Thor
  • Namor

marvel_spread_lrg.thumb.jpg.24d47cb8b32e76e38e231ba4b4dcf77a.jpg

And even with the early films pitched to studios, Captain America and Iron Man were right there with Hulk, Spider-Man, X-Men and The Fantastic Four. Just with Stan Lee distracting James Cameron from producing Iron Man by talking up Spider-Man, one got more attention than the other.

Now Thor, Daredevil, Hawkeye, Namor, The Wasp, Ant-Man, Guardians of the Galaxy, Doctor Strange. Those I would consider clear B and C-list characters. And now they are clearly recognized around the world due to Marvel's overall TV and film foundations.

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2 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:
29 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

I think its clear cap was always A list.

I’m not sure I understand how.

Always a face of the Avengers in advertising but...

Never a top 3 comic seller for Marvel...

Two failed low budget movies... 

Marvel animation studios never even gave him a stand alone cartoon out of the 8 features they did...

Even in the MCU he was the 5th movie... they made 2 Iron Man movies before they ever did Cap...

And other than that Hulk movie, it’s the lowest grossing film in the whole run of the MCU. 

Serious question: What is it about him that makes him an A-list? 

Because Marvel wants him to be? Guardians of the Galaxy doubled ‘First Avenger’’’s box office and nobody even knew who they were.

It seems his claim to fame has always been as a leader of the Avengers, not as a solo hero.

Well he is the only Character to survive the golden age still producing for Marvel, only had about a 8 year layoff in the last 76 years not putting out a monthly comic. Had 3 movies made for him in the course of 12 years because they felt the fan interest was there, and everyone who didn't read comics knew who Captain America was.

Its not tied to how many copies of "Atlantis Attacks" tie in you moved, its based on market desire and brand name recognition. Overall Cap had 4 movies and an animated TV show (Marvel Super Heroes 1966) before Chris Evans donned the mask. He had long term marketability and name recognition so much that "captain America" became a saying and a piece of American folk lore before Chris gave his first quiet smirk.

On a side note, in the 90s there was a mid level budget studio film of Cap produced starting JD Salingers son (no joke). It was the first modern mainstream hero movie Marvel had ever had (unless you count 'Punisher' and 'Howard the Duck'....which dear lord you shouldnt).

 

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, zhamlau said:

Well he is the only Character to survive the golden age still producing for Marvel,

1

Well... Sub-Mariner survived and the idea of a 'Human Torch'...

Quote

only had about a 8 year layoff in the last 76 years not putting out a monthly comic.

2

Well... his own SOLO comic... 14 years...

Quote

Had 3 movies made for him in the course of 12 years because they felt the fan interest was there, and everyone who didn't read comics knew who Captain America was.

 

He has fan interest no doubt, and I'm not questioning that everyone knows who he is (or better put, he has incredibly high name recognition), but 'everyone knows' who Aquaman is too, but I'm not sure I would've considered him an A-list compared to Batman. Of course, he's now had a bigger grossing solo movie than Cap ever has... In fact, ROBIN is someone that most everyone knows due to his exposure... is Robin an A-list character?

Quote

Its not tied to how many copies of "Atlantis Attacks" tie in you moved

I don't know what that means...

Quote

, its based on market desire and brand name recognition.

1

How do you measure that? How do you measure name recognition? And what is the line that separates an A-list from a B-list? And what exactly is 'market desire'?

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/superhero-earns-13-billion-a-748281

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Overall Cap had 4 movies

 

To be fair, Jim Varney's 'Ernest goes to..." comprised 5 movies, and I still don't consider that character to be an A-list. ;)

Quote

and an animated TV show (Marvel Super Heroes 1966) before Chris Evans donned the mask. He had long term marketability and name recognition so much that "captain America" became a saying and a piece of American folk lore before Chris gave his first quiet smirk.

2

They have worked very hard to give him name recognition. No question. But does name recognition equal A-list status? Tarzan has amazing name recognition - is he an A-list character that people want to make a movie about? King Kong has amazing name recognition - they ARE still making movies about him. Does that make him an A-list? 

Quote

On a side note, in the 90s there was a mid level budget studio film of Cap produced starting JD Salingers son (no joke). It was the first modern mainstream hero movie Marvel had ever had (unless you count 'Punisher' and 'Howard the Duck'....which dear lord you shouldnt).

 

But why? Punisher has big name recognition and has had almost as many movies made about him as Cap has. Is that market desire? Green Lantern fits all of the same criteria as Cap and I just never thought of him as an A-list compared to Batman. My A-list was always a short list. But if it's name recognition and if I can find out what 'market desire' is and add that, maybe the A-list is a whole bunch of characters... is Ghost Rider now an A-list?

 

Edited by Chuck Gower

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1 hour ago, Chuck Gower said:

Well... Sub-Mariner survived and the idea of a 'Human Torch'...

Well... his own SOLO comic... 14 years...

He has fan interest no doubt, and I'm not questioning that everyone knows who he is (or better put, he has incredibly high name recognition), but 'everyone knows' who Aquaman is too, but I'm not sure I would've considered him an A-list compared to Batman. Of course, he's now had a bigger grossing solo movie than Cap ever has... In fact, ROBIN is someone that most everyone knows due to his exposure... is Robin an A-list character?

I don't know what that means...

How do you measure that? How do you measure name recognition? And what is the line that separates an A-list from a B-list? And what exactly is 'market desire'?

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/superhero-earns-13-billion-a-748281

To be fair, Jim Varney's 'Ernest goes to..." comprised 5 movies, and I still don't consider that character to be an A-list. ;)

They have worked very hard to give him name recognition. No question. But does name recognition equal A-list status? Tarzan has amazing name recognition - is he an A-list character that people want to make a movie about? King Kong has amazing name recognition - they ARE still making movies about him. Does that make him an A-list? 

But why? Punisher has big name recognition and has had almost as many movies made about him as Cap has. Is that market desire? Green Lantern fits all of the same criteria as Cap and I just never thought of him as an A-list compared to Batman. My A-list was always a short list. But if it's name recognition and if I can find out what 'market desire' is and add that, maybe the A-list is a whole bunch of characters... is Ghost Rider now an A-list?

 

Rather than parsing out each statement which can be misinterpreted, let's group this together for an easier chat. :smile:

I think where your head is, along with some others, is a character is not considered A-List until they are in a massively successful movie and from that then everyone across the general audience recognizes them. If that is the case, then you could say many of these comic book films did not contain A-List characters until that time. But with Marvel live and animated productions, its characters have been out there for the general audience since 1966 (not counting the Timely Captain America serial from 1944).

  • 1966: The Marvel Super Heroes TV series (Captain America, Hulk, Iron Man, Sub-Mariner, Thor) (65 episodes combined)
  • 1967-1968: Fantastic Four animated series
  • 1967-1970: Spider-Man animated show
  • 1974-1977: Spidey Super Stories (Sesame Street inserts)
  • 1977-1979: The Amazing Spider-Man TV show
  • 1977-1982: The Incredible Hulk TV show
  • 1978: Doctor Strange TV pilot
  • 1978: The New Fantastic Four animated show
  • 1978-1979: Spider-Man Tokyo Channel 12 TV show
  • 1979: Fred and Barney Meet The Thing animated 
  • 1979-1980: Spider-Woman animated show (16 episodes)
  • 1981-1982: Spider-Man animated show
  • 1981-1983: Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends animated show (Iron Man appears)
  • 1982-1983: The Incredible Hulk animated show
  • 1989: X-Men: Pryde of the X-Men animated pilot
  • 1992-1997: X-Men animates series
  • 1994-1996: Fantastic Four animated series (Marvel Action Hour series)
  • 1994-1996: Iron Man animated series (26 episodes) (Marvel Action Hour series)
  • 1994-1998: Spider-Man The Animated Series
  • 1996-1997: The Incredible Hulk The Animated Series (Marvel Action Hour series)
  • 1998: Silver Surfer The Animated Series
  • 1999-2001: Spider-Man Unlimited animated series
  • 1999-2000: The Avengers: United They Stand (13 episodes)
  • 2000-2003: X-Men: Evolution animated show (52 episodes)
  • 2001-2004: Mutant X TV show
  • 2003: MTV Spider-Man: The New Animated Series (13 episodes)
  • 2006: Blade: The Series TV show
  • 2006: Ultimate Avengers: The Movie direct-to-video animated film
  • 2006: Ultimate Avengers 2: Rise of the Panther direct-to-video animated film
  • 2006-2007: Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Heroes animated show (Iron Man appearances)
  • 2007: The Invincible Iron Man direct-to-video animated film
  • 2007: Doctor Strange: The Sorcerer Supreme direct-to-video animated film
  • 2008: Next Avengers: Heroes of Tomorrow direct-to-video animated film

Additionally, Captain America and Iron Man have been used in video games, marketing images and as merchandising for decades. So to assume general audience members had no idea or association of Captain America and Iron Man to Marvel Entertainment over the years before the 2008 and 2011 films would ignore the extensive Marvel library of TV shows, animated productions, games and general marketing.

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Posted (edited)

Maybe A-list status is a malleable evolving thing that depends on a character's recognition, sales, merchandising, media presence, and story use of a particular era. I suppose in the 60's, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, and the core Avengers were all A-list. But over time, with fan favor, comics sales, media presence, and merchandise sales, characters like Spidey, Hulk, and X-Men rise to the top, with the recognition that the Fantastic Four, Iron Man, and Captain America still played central roles in the comics stories. I'd argue that in the 60's, Stan Lee's best writing in long running series were Spider-Man and Fantastic Four. Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Doctor Strange, and the X-Men just didn't seem to get the same quality attention in their monthly comics.

The success of the 60's Spider-Man cartoon and its syndication for decades as well as the Electric Company shorts made Spider-Man a household name. Hulk's hugely successful 70's TV show also made him a household name. I don't think we can discount the factor of TV show and movie success as it made the comics more popular, too.

Iron Man and Cap play central leading roles in the comics stories throughout the 70's (so maybe they're A-list but below Spidey and Hulk), but Cap's pilot TV show fails bad, affecting his status. Iron Man gets named in a Black Sabbath song, though.

X-Men take over comics in the 80's, making them A-list.

The success of Sam Raimi's Spider-Man further put Spidey into another stratosphere, while the successful X-Men movies made Wolverine a household name.

With the rise of Marvel Studios, characters like X-Men and Hulk take a back seat as their individual movies stumble a bit and have less of an important role in the comics, while Iron Man and Captain America take the top A-list spot with the success of their movies, the success of the Civil War comic event, as well as their continued role as leaders of the Avengers. 

With worldwide movie success and a little politics in the mix, Black Panther and Captain Marvel become the new face of the billion dollar MCU franchise.

Who are the X-Men again?

So maybe we can agree that A-list status quo goes up and down with the times.

Edited by @therealsilvermane

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6 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

Well... Sub-Mariner survived and the idea of a 'Human Torch'...

Well... his own SOLO comic... 14 years...

He has fan interest no doubt, and I'm not questioning that everyone knows who he is (or better put, he has incredibly high name recognition), but 'everyone knows' who Aquaman is too, but I'm not sure I would've considered him an A-list compared to Batman. Of course, he's now had a bigger grossing solo movie than Cap ever has... In fact, ROBIN is someone that most everyone knows due to his exposure... is Robin an A-list character?

I don't know what that means...

How do you measure that? How do you measure name recognition? And what is the line that separates an A-list from a B-list? And what exactly is 'market desire'?

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/superhero-earns-13-billion-a-748281

To be fair, Jim Varney's 'Ernest goes to..." comprised 5 movies, and I still don't consider that character to be an A-list. ;)

They have worked very hard to give him name recognition. No question. But does name recognition equal A-list status? Tarzan has amazing name recognition - is he an A-list character that people want to make a movie about? King Kong has amazing name recognition - they ARE still making movies about him. Does that make him an A-list? 

But why? Punisher has big name recognition and has had almost as many movies made about him as Cap has. Is that market desire? Green Lantern fits all of the same criteria as Cap and I just never thought of him as an A-list compared to Batman. My A-list was always a short list. But if it's name recognition and if I can find out what 'market desire' is and add that, maybe the A-list is a whole bunch of characters... is Ghost Rider now an A-list?

 

Lot in there off topic so gonna just stick to the bullet points

1. Cap had 4 movies and multiple shows before the MCU. This didn't occur in a vacuum or someone trying "force" him into popularity as you are implying. Namor and Torch didnt lead teams or headline books for that same time (Torch wasnt even the same character/species if you can call it that) so no point comparing them.

2. Name recognition in the general public would have had Captain America in the top 10, pre and post MCU. It was a name everyone knew, regardless of generation. He was a symbol and a meme before the internet or Kevin Feige existed.

3. "A List" is of course a vague and infinitely definable term. Your's is tied to box office gross, mine is tied to long standing cultural relevancy.

4. Blade got 3 movies before Ironman got 1. That's not because of being or not being "A List" but because of production costs. Howard the duck got the first major budget Marvel movie because of ego/vanity not because he was "A List". And by that, when you get a movie shouldn't be a standard of who is and who isnt "A list".

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7 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

Name recognition in the general public would have had Captain America in the top 10, pre and post MCU. It was a name everyone knew, regardless of generation. He was a symbol and a meme before the internet or Kevin Feige existed.

That is so not true. Nobody outside comics readers, or older folks who vaguely remembered that awful Captain America show, knew who he was. The only comic book heroes who were household names, and thus "memes", were Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, and Hulk, (maybe Aquaman because of SUperFriends), and yes it was because they were all successful outside of the comics.  Captain America was definitely not a meme before the MCU. 

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19 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

Name recognition in the general public would have had Captain America in the top 10,

If you want to talk Top 10 most well known comic book heroes in the general public before the MCU, I'd say it's Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, Wonder Woman, Hulk, Shazam, Aquaman, Flash Gordon, Wolverine, and Robin if you count sidekicks.

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2 hours ago, zhamlau said:

Lot in there off topic so gonna just stick to the bullet points

1. Cap had 4 movies and multiple shows before the MCU. This didn't occur in a vacuum or someone trying "force" him into popularity as you are implying. Namor and Torch didnt lead teams or headline books for that same time (Torch wasnt even the same character/species if you can call it that) so no point comparing them.

2. Name recognition in the general public would have had Captain America in the top 10, pre and post MCU. It was a name everyone knew, regardless of generation. He was a symbol and a meme before the internet or Kevin Feige existed.

3. "A List" is of course a vague and infinitely definable term. Your's is tied to box office gross, mine is tied to long standing cultural relevancy.

4. Blade got 3 movies before Ironman got 1. That's not because of being or not being "A List" but because of production costs. Howard the duck got the first major budget Marvel movie because of ego/vanity not because he was "A List". And by that, when you get a movie shouldn't be a standard of who is and who isnt "A list".

(thumbsu

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17 hours ago, @therealsilvermane said:

If you want to talk Top 10 most well known comic book heroes in the general public before the MCU, I'd say it's Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, Wonder Woman, Hulk, Shazam, Aquaman, Flash Gordon, Wolverine, and Robin if you count sidekicks.

Your idea of "well known" is clearly tied directly to TV/movie exposure.  While I certainly agree with much of your list for the 80's - 90's period, there are other ways to know about these characters.  Captain America was on lunch boxes, bicycles, t shirts, under roos, toys, etc.  It seems everyone knew who he was even before the MCU.  I would say he was a bigger / more well known name than Shazam, Aquaman, and Flash Gordon pre-MCU times.

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On 5/11/2019 at 3:27 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

It's only an opinion TwoPiece, and only a film. I was hoping for a blue 9.4 and got a 5 with a purple label. The world keeps turning though, real or otherwise. 

You're delusional...

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