CGC needs to modify its stance on Color Touch 5 5

[lou_fine]

15 hours ago, Hawkman said:

Anything you do to improve a book is restoration. CGC books would cease being trustworthy if they started overlooking color touch and tear seals. 

Hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but as compared to the past prior to CGC, there are now quite a few things that you can do to improve a book that CGC does not consider to be restoration and will still give you the Universal Unrestored label.  

If you aren't too picky, there are also a whole slew of other things that you can also do to improve a book that CGC now considers to be only Conservation only and not to be the once dreaded (but not so much now) PLOD restoration.  

Guess what, even with all of these former restoration activities that they have now taken out of the former Restoration bucket, the marketplace stay views them as being trustworthy.  

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 5/7/2019 at 11:46 PM, lou_fine said:

On 5/1/2019 at 6:52 PM, Rip said:

Avengers 4

CGC 9.8 $143,000

CGC 9.6 $23,500

Time to think about in-between grades

Or maybe it's time to educate certain segments of the marketplace that there is both a mathematically significant and financially acknowledged difference between $143K and $23.5K.  

And yet at the same time, even independent third party grading of a comic book is still at best only a subjective opinion at the time the book crosses a human grader's table.  As such, due to almost any number of contributing factors, a book which might grade out as a CGC 9.6 copy could conceivably be graded as a CGC 9.8 copy the next day or even a hour from then, and vice versa.  

That is, unless you truly believe this is a perfect world and if this is indeed the case why would you want to stop at only single decimal delineations between grades.  Especially when there must be a world of clear and obvious differences between a CGC 9.62 and CGC 9.63 graded book.  

The market is demanding it. It's only a matter of time, and the measure of resistance the grading companies put up. Another way to look at it is that the "this is a 9.6 today, could be a 9.8 tomorrow" could end up being that 9.7 that the book deserved to be all along. 

Remember that the subjectivity of individual grades aside, there is an absolute "range" of each grade designation, which manifests itself over time, independently of the (non)existence of published grading standards. That is, over time, give a reasonable measure of control (effectively achieved by the natural tension between buyers and sellers), a "typical" 9.8 and a "typical" 9.6 are demonstrable, and that there is also a demonstrable range for both of those grades that frequently overlaps. Is it clear and obvious? To most people, no. But then, to most people, there's no clear and obvious difference between "Good" and "Fine." To experienced graders, the differences, while subtle, are not "can't see them without a microscope" subtle...at least, not yet.

The more people pay for these things, the pickier they become, and the more precise they'll want the grading services to be. The "market" started off with "Good/Fine/Mint." That was perfectly serviceable when the average back issue was worth no more than $2. Now, not so much. 

Will it ever reach "9.63"? Almost certainly not. There ARE limits to what is tolerable in the marketplace. But we haven't yet reached those limits...not even close. 

There are people who don't submit to CGC at all, who have no experience with how CGC grades, but nevertheless have opinions about the system. Those "opinions" ought to be given the consideration which is due them.

I imagine a lot of the arguing against the idea is from the buyers who resent having to pay for higher quality, who resent finer distinctions, and still want to pay "Fine" prices for VF/NM+ books, since it's not "Mint."

[Bookery]

31 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

The market is demanding it.

Maybe... maybe not.  I suspect it's actually a small number of influential dealers and CGC customers demanding it, and not the larger market per se.  They say modern politics and social trends are now almost entirely influenced by a small number of vocal and persistent social media posters.  In my town, a single merchant, who's not the biggest by far, nor brings in the most customers, has almost total influence in what goes on in the downtown district because... well, just because.

31 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

 

It's only a matter of time, and the measure of resistance the grading companies put up. Another way to look at it is that the "this is a 9.6 today, could be a 9.8 tomorrow" could end up being that 9.7 that the book deserved to be all along.

One of the potential problems is that this (and I agree it is inevitable) may actually harm CGC's long-term reputation.  My reasoning is this... because so many important books have already been slabbed, most of the 9.7s will be new submissions.  While someone may send in a 9.6 for re-submission, hoping for a 9.7, 9.8s are generally assumed to be maximized to their full potential (especially older comics).  Nobody is going to send in a 9.8 so their book can be "properly regraded" a 9.7.  So you will have thousands of books out there technically "over-graded" alongside all the new "proper" 9.7s.  This is different than the occasional "gift grade", etc.  This will be a huge number of books co-existing exhibiting different grading systems.  The concept of making the grades even more accurate will actually cause the reverse... why trust a 9.8 if it might not really be a 9.8 under new standards?

 

 

31 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 minutes ago, Bookery said:

One of the potential problems is that this (and I agree it is inevitable) may actually harm CGC's long-term reputation.  My reasoning is this... because so many important books have already been slabbed, most of the 9.7s will be new submissions.  While someone may send in a 9.6 for re-submission, hoping for a 9.7, 9.8s are generally assumed to be maximized to their full potential (especially older comics).  Nobody is going to send in a 9.8 so their book can be "properly regraded" a 9.7.  So you will have thousands of books out there technically "over-graded" alongside all the new "proper" 9.7s.  This is different than the occasional "gift grade", etc.  This will be a huge number of books co-existing exhibiting different grading systems.  The concept of making the grades even more accurate will actually cause the reverse... why trust a 9.8 if it might not really be a 9.8 under new standards?

Because they're not new standards. It's just another designation, using the current (unpublished) standard.

No, no one is going to send in their overgraded 9.8s to be regraded, obviously. But a ton bunch of people WILL send in their 9.6s....and 9.4s...and 9.2s...and so on...to be regraded, hoping for that little extra bump that the book might deserve. No one sends in their overgraded MS65s to be regraded MS64+, but it didn't cause a lack of trust in those MS65s. The law of averages suggest there are a comparable number of undergraded 9.6s out there as there are overgraded 9.8s. And as I said above, these books "exhibiting" these differences will not be noticed by the vast majority of buyers anyway.

The coin market blazed this trail long ago, and it didn't hurt anyone's reputation. BUY THE BOOK, NOT THE LABEL still applies, as it always has.

12 minutes ago, Bookery said:

Maybe... maybe not.  I suspect it's actually a small number of influential dealers and CGC customers demanding it, and not the larger market per se.  They say modern politics and social trends are now almost entirely influenced by a small number of vocal and persistent social media posters.  In my town, a single merchant, who's not the biggest by far, nor brings in the most customers, has almost total influence in what goes on in the downtown district because... well, just because.

When 9.8s sell for $1500, and 9.6s for $150...the market is demanding it. The top-heavy, lopsided nature of the uber high grade market demands it.

[Bookery]

2 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

BUY THE BOOK, NOT THE LABEL still applies, as it always has.

Everyone says this, but it's essentially meaningless.  If the vast majority of collectors could grade well enough to buy the book and not the label, CGC wouldn't even exist.

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 minutes ago, Bookery said:

8 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

BUY THE BOOK, NOT THE LABEL still applies, as it always has.

Everyone says this, but it's essentially meaningless.  If the vast majority of collectors could grade well enough to buy the book and not the label, CGC wouldn't even exist.

That is not accurate, on both counts.

[Bookery]

18 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

That is not accurate, on both counts.

You're right.  I've only dealt with collectors every day for 40 years... what could I possibly know about why they buy what they buy?  But aside from that... my comment is not only accurate, but self-evident.  Logic is logic, and an endless desire to constantly challenge everybody about everything doesn't change that.

[kav]

 haha

Edited June 22, 2019 by kav

[RockMyAmadeus]

9 minutes ago, Bookery said:

30 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

That is not accurate, on both counts.

You're right.  I've only dealt with collectors every day for 40 years... what could I possibly know about why they buy what they buy?  But aside from that... my comment is not only accurate, but self-evident.  Logic is logic, and an endless desire to constantly challenge everybody about everything doesn't change that.

Melodrama doesn't advance the discussion. Here's why your previous statement is inaccurate:

32 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

42 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

BUY THE BOOK, NOT THE LABEL still applies, as it always has.

Everyone says this, but it's essentially meaningless.  If the vast majority of collectors could grade well enough to buy the book and not the label, CGC wouldn't even exist.

Not only is that not "essentially meaningless", it happens every day. People buy slabs...and don't buy slabs...based on the book inside, and use the label only as a guide. This is ESPECIALLY true for those, like myself, who look for undergraded books and/or books with "fixable defects"...or books that are good candidates for signatures that stand a decent chance of maintaining their grade. And those who do neither are still looking at the book to make sure there isn't some glaring difference between the grade on the label and the grade of the actual book. I watch people inspect books in slabs at conventions on a regular basis. If they were merely buying the label, they wouldn't care about the book inside.

CGC's existence has little to do with "the vast majority of collectors" not being able to grade well enough to buy the book and not the label. CGC's existence is due to the fact that buyers were tired of A. buying books that were consistently overgraded, and B. buying books that had undisclosed restoration. Their existence facilitated the buying and selling of comics over the internet, which is where the vast, vast majority of CGC slab transactions take place (including here!)

Are there people who are overly reliant on the label? Of course! Does that render "buy the book, and not the label" "essentially meaningless", as you contend? Not even remotely.

Answer me this: how many slabs do you sell in your store? You have not  "dealt with slabs" for 40 years (as no one has), and this discussion is specifically about slabs. Slabs have yet to be around for a full 20 years, and one thing I have observed: slabs are, first and foremost, an internet "thing", followed by a convention "thing"...and it is the rare store that routinely sells or deals in slabs. Not unheard of...but not common. 

I do agree, however, that your endless desire to constantly challenge everybody about everything doesn't change logic. Let's hope you can work on that, and remember to keep the personal comments out of these discussions. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

CGC's existence has little to do with "the vast majority of collectors" not being able to grade well enough to buy the book and not the label. CGC's existence is due to the fact that buyers were tired of A. buying books that were consistently overgraded, and B. buying books that had undisclosed restoration. Their existence facilitated the buying and selling of comics over the internet, which is where the vast, vast majority of CGC slab transactions take place (including here!)

I'll expand on this part, because I think it's important:

It is precisely because buyers could grade, and thus could tell that books were being overgraded, that CGC exists! If "the vast majority" were simply buying the label and not the book...that is, merely taking someone else's word for it, rather than learning how to grade for themselves...CGC would have never come into existence in the first place, because there would have been no need for them. As I've said elsewhere, the presence of third party grading...and CGC in particular...has upped everyone's game: it forced many sellers to admit that they were habitually overgrading their books, and forced buyers to learn what books in different grades looked like, and have properly set expectations.

And it works both ways. More than one buyer has raised his or her expectations upon receiving a (insert whatever grade here) book, because now they look at it and say "oh....THAT'S what that's supposed to look like! Cool!" And they learn. And they expect better.

The situation between the three parties: buyer, seller, and CGC...is an agreement. The reason the system works is not because buyers or sellers blindly take CGC's word for it...though, that certainly does happen!...but because all three parties agree that the grade on the label is consistent with the condition of the book inside. That's the only way it works, and the only way it CAN work. And CGC does not want people to blindly take their word for it, to never question what they put out, because eventually that leads to laziness and sloppiness, which in turn leads to a loss of market trust...which eventually puts them out of business.

That certainly, by no means, precludes buyers and/or sellers from using the label as a crutch...it most certainly is used that way!...but, as of now, there is enough of the market that can, and will, call out grave errors by CGC, much of which is posted on this board. The buyer keeps the seller and CGC on their game, CGC keeps the seller and buyer on their game, and the seller keeps CGC and the buyer on their game. That's how it works, and when it does, it's a beautiful thing. A knowledgeable market, being used by knowledgeable parties, transacting in knowledgeable ways.

It's magic.

 

Edited June 22, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus

[Bookery]

14 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I'll expand on this part, because I think it's important:

I wan't going to respond to you further since your previous post was a primer on what makes so many discussions online intolerable... pedantry capped off by couched put-downs and in the same breath, a lecture about not getting personal!  But... here, you present a decent argument sans condescension, so I'll play.  

14 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

It is precisely because buyers could grade, and thus could tell that books were being overgraded, that CGC exists!

I don't really find this argument convincing.  If buyers know that a dealer over-grades, then simply don't buy from that dealer!  It is a simple concept that served me well long before CGC.  With few exceptions, the majority of comics that most people seek are hardly in scarce supply.  And I'm not necessarily faulting people for not feeling confident in grading... it takes years to become a consistent grader (good and bad is subjective... but consistency is demonstrable).  Some don't have the time to learn it, but still want to collect.  And some just don't have the eye and facility for detail, and simply never will.  I suspect our differences of opinion, and experience, are because we operate in different circles.  Your circle of acquaintances, probably some on these boards, are probably high-end, long-time collectors who are educated about grade nuance.  They will indeed look at the book and not the number.  But I maintain this is still a minority... and a fairly small minority... of collectors out there.  If I put two copies of the same issue out in my store... a 9.6 and a 9.8... and yet I'm certain the 9.6 is the better-looking book... I can argue until I'm blue in the face... but 9 out of 10 (maybe even 99 out of 100) will still buy the 9.8, and will still pay far more for it than the 9.6, because of the NUMBER, regardless of the book inside.  And that's because they know when it comes time to sell, they in turn will get more for the possibly over-graded 9.8 than the possibly under-graded 9.6.  It's the same story with a book that has a single dot of color-touch vs. an ugly, but unrestored copy.  Most will buy the latter because, regardless of the book inside, they know that CGC has created perceived value with its NUMBER (or in this case, LABEL COLOR).  At any rate... when I state "buy the book and not the number" is essentially meaningless, I say so not because it's bad advice (which is how I think you are taking it) but because it does't matter how many times it is stated, the majority of buyers aren't going to do that, and don't feel confident in doing that.  You can tell a smoker 1,000 times it's bad for his health, but if he doesn't care, or can't help himself, then the constant repetition of it similarly becomes "essentially meaningless".  That is what I mean.

As for your comment in your previous post, I suspect I do not handle as many CGC books as you do.  But I am one of CGC's original dealers (with a 2-digit member number), and I always have CGC books in the shop (the quantity varies considerably as with anything based on what I'm able to pick up).  I currently have two high-end books submitted to CGC as we type.  I have handled their books to some degree or another since their initiation.

14 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

 

 

[kav]

34 minutes ago, Bookery said:

I wan't going to respond to you further since your previous post was a primer on what makes so many discussions online intolerable... pedantry capped off by couched put-downs and in the same breath, a lecture about not getting personal!  But... here, you present a decent argument sans condescension, so I'll play.  

I don't really find this argument convincing.  If buyers know that a dealer over-grades, then simply don't buy from that dealer!  It is a simple concept that served me well long before CGC.  With few exceptions, the majority of comics that most people seek are hardly in scarce supply.  And I'm not necessarily faulting people for not feeling confident in grading... it takes years to become a consistent grader (good and bad is subjective... but consistency is demonstrable).  Some don't have the time to learn it, but still want to collect.  And some just don't have the eye and facility for detail, and simply never will.  I suspect our differences of opinion, and experience, are because we operate in different circles.  Your circle of acquaintances, probably some on these boards, are probably high-end, long-time collectors who are educated about grade nuance.  They will indeed look at the book and not the number.  But I maintain this is still a minority... and a fairly small minority... of collectors out there.  If I put two copies of the same issue out in my store... a 9.6 and a 9.8... and yet I'm certain the 9.6 is the better-looking book... I can argue until I'm blue in the face... but 9 out of 10 (maybe even 99 out of 100) will still buy the 9.8, and will still pay far more for it than the 9.6, because of the NUMBER, regardless of the book inside.  And that's because they know when it comes time to sell, they in turn will get more for the possibly over-graded 9.8 than the possibly under-graded 9.6.  It's the same story with a book that has a single dot of color-touch vs. an ugly, but unrestored copy.  Most will buy the latter because, regardless of the book inside, they know that CGC has created perceived value with its NUMBER (or in this case, LABEL COLOR).  At any rate... when I state "buy the book and not the number" is essentially meaningless, I say so not because it's bad advice (which is how I think you are taking it) but because it does't matter how many times it is stated, the majority of buyers aren't going to do that, and don't feel confident in doing that.  You can tell a smoker 1,000 times it's bad for his health, but if he doesn't care, or can't help himself, then the constant repetition of it similarly becomes "essentially meaningless".  That is what I mean.

As for your comment in your previous post, I suspect I do not handle as many CGC books as you do.  But I am one of CGC's original dealers (with a 2-digit member number), and I always have CGC books in the shop (the quantity varies considerably as with anything based on what I'm able to pick up).  I currently have two high-end books submitted to CGC as we type.  I have handled their books to some degree or another since their initiation.

 

Good post.  The argument that 'if you dont submit books to CGC you dont know how to grade/shouldnt talk about grading or CGC is ludicrous.  You dont have to participate in something in order to have educated info on it.  If that were true then we need to shut down the NBA thread in the water cooler, because no one there has played in the NBA.  In fact the entire water cooler needs to be shut down.  And no one can talk about plumbing if they are not a plumber etc.  That argument is merely another attempt to shut down viewpoints that someone disagrees with.  "I submit more booksthan you do so my word is God".   

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, Bookery said:

I wan't going to respond to you further since your previous post was a primer on what makes so many discussions online intolerable... pedantry capped off by couched put-downs and in the same breath, a lecture about not getting personal!  

That's correct: nothing in my comment...aside from my repetition of your insult at the end...was personal. There are no "couched put-downs" in anything I said, so if you saw them, you're seeing things that aren't there, and being offended merely because someone disagreed with you. If you can't have a discussion without becoming offended and making snide, personal comments, the problem is you. 

[kav]

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, kav said:

Good post.  The argument that 'if you dont submit books to CGC you dont know how to grade/shouldnt talk about grading or CGC is ludicrous.  

That's correct. And no one made that argument.

1 hour ago, kav said:

You dont have to participate in something in order to have educated info on it. 

That depends on what you mean by "educated info." 

1 hour ago, kav said:

If that were true then we need to shut down the NBA thread in the water cooler, because no one there has played in the NBA.  In fact the entire water cooler needs to be shut down.  And no one can talk about plumbing if they are not a plumber etc.

Here's where your logic fails: people who have never played basketball can understand how the game is played, in all its intricate details...but they cannot understand how to actually play the game. Observation only goes so far; it does not build up your strength, sharpen your reflexes, train your muscle memory, teach you plays and moves and defenses, or prepare your body in any meaningful way to actually play the game. All the players in the world...from the most mediocre to the greatest of all time...didn't get there by watching the game, but by playing it. Same with virtually everything. Watching a plumber is useful...but it doesn't make you a plumber. Watching a concert pianist is fun...but it doesn't make you a concert pianist. 

So...how many books have you submitted to CGC? 

How many slabbed books do you own, or have owned?

How many slabbed books have you bought and/or sold?

How many slabbed books have you cracked?

How many slabbed books have you handled?

I suspect the answer to all of those questions is at or near zero. 

And if that's the case, then you have no real experience with slabs and slabbing...at best, you have observation, and that, from a distance. That doesn't mean you can't understand the mechanics of grading...anyone can read the Overstreet Grading Guide and get a fair handle on it...but it does mean that you can only learn so much, and without actually experiencing the process, your opinions will...by necessity...be only partly informed. Not totally useless...but if I were going to ask someone how to play in the NBA, I'm going to ask the guy who has actually played in the NBA...not the guy who goes to a few games here and there.

1 hour ago, kav said:

That argument is merely another attempt to shut down viewpoints that someone disagrees with.

That argument is to demonstrate that experience matters. A person is free to have uninformed or partly informed viewpoints, and no one is shutting anyone down except moderation. Challenging uninformed or partly informed viewpoints is not "shutting down viewpoints."

1 hour ago, kav said:

"I submit more booksthan you do so my word is God".   

I never said, nor implied, anything like that. My statements have always been that experience matters. And it does. 

[kav]

[RockMyAmadeus]

4 minutes ago, kav said:

Thank you.

[kav]

[BlowUpTheMoon]

On 5/2/2019 at 2:08 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

And yet, today, we have 25 different distinctions:

.5 (Poor)

1.0 (Fair)

1.5 (Fair/Good)

1.8 (Good-)

2.0 (Good)

2.5 (Good+)

3.0 (Good/VG)

3.5 (VG-)

4.0 (VG)

4.5 (VG+)

5.0 (VG/Fine)

5.5 (Fine-)

6.0 (Fine)

6.5 (Fine+)

7.0 (F/VF)

7.5 (VF-)

8.0 (VF)

8.5 (VF+)

9.0 (VF/NM)

9.2 (NM-)

9.4 (NM)

9.6 (NM+)

9.8 (NM/MT)

9.9 (Mint)

10.0 ("Gem" Mint)

NG

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, BlowUpTheMoon said:

NG

And NG! Although, to be fair, does "No Grade" count as a grade...?