CGC needs to modify its stance on Color Touch
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2 hours ago, Black_Adam said:

I know this thread is like shooting arrows at the clouds, but this would be the grading system for CT I envision:

An unscrupulous comic store guy has a comic with a color-breaking corner crease. In its current state it is a 7.0 

He takes a black marker and color touches the crease, now the comic looks like a 9.0

He sells the book to an unsuspecting customer and the CT goes unnoticed. Customer submits the comic for grading and it comes back as a 9.0 (PLOD).

Customer curses comic store guy (who has vanished) and sends the comic back to have the CT removed. The corner is cut away (there was bleed through) and the book comes back as a 6.0 (Blue).

Under my system the grader would have caught the CT, deducted a full grade for it from the otherwise 7.0 comic, and sent the book back as a 6.0 (Blue).

Exact same result except it does not further damage the comic and saves the duped customer additional pain in the form of extra resto removal/grading/shipping fees.

 

The real problem you face is you are trying (in part) to correct what the market is influencing. The seller gets the CT removed because the market values a lower grade un-colortouched over a hgher grade color touched book.

Under your system that drops the grade and keeps it blue, how do you think the market would react to those books that are grade dropped due to color touch? Would the market value the 6.0 (Blue) w/CT noted as much as it would value a 6.0 blue with no CT? I'm betting no. And then you are in the same situation where the MARKET influences what the owner decides to do with his CT book.

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14 minutes ago, LordRahl said:

CGC did not make restored books appear less desirable. They only differentiate them with a different color label. Restored books were always less desirable. You are dead wrong that people didn't care if a book was restored prior to CGC.

CGC does not dictate comic values. We (the market) do that. All CGC does is provide an unbiased opinion as to grade and an educated opinion as to restoration. It is then up to us to assign a value, which we have done.

 

Not dead wrong. Hung out with 3 people that owned comic shops in the 80s Chicagoland area. We never once in our group discussed restoration. Maybe you did. Maybe some other people did. BUT DONT TELL ME WHAT I TALKED ABOUT.

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5 minutes ago, Ride the Tiger said:

Not dead wrong. Hung out with 3 people that owned comic shops in the 80s Chicagoland area. We never once in our group discussed restoration. Maybe you did. Maybe some other people did. BUT DONT TELL ME WHAT I TALKED ABOUT.

Oh the irony. I didn't. This is your exact quote... "No one ever talked about a book being restored because they didn't care". You're the one that said no one talked about resto and didn't care. YOU may not have. But don't tell me what I cared and talked about... or anyone else for that matter.

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19 minutes ago, miraclemet said:

The real problem you face is you are trying (in part) to correct what the market is influencing. The seller gets the CT removed because the market values a lower grade un-colortouched over a hgher grade color touched book.

Under your system that drops the grade and keeps it blue, how do you think the market would react to those books that are grade dropped due to color touch? Would the market value the 6.0 (Blue) w/CT noted as much as it would value a 6.0 blue with no CT? I'm betting no. And then you are in the same situation where the MARKET influences what the owner decides to do with his CT book.

I'm hoping that - with both books having Blue same-grade labels - they will choose the comic that presents better.

The problem now is the stigma attached to a Purple label when compared to a Blue.

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1 hour ago, LordRahl said:

Oh the irony. I didn't. This is your exact quote... "No one ever talked about a book being restored because they didn't care". You're the one that said no one talked about resto and didn't care. YOU may not have. But don't tell me what I cared and talked about... or anyone else for that matter.

And that statement remains true. Was  no internet. In all the people I ever had contact with we never talked about restoration. Only irony is that you are now added to 1 more persons ignore list. Now argue your point all you want. L8ter.

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4 hours ago, Black_Adam said:

No amount of restoration would be 'allowed' in a Blue label - the book would get hammered - it just wouldn't get a Purple label (which ironically would give the color-touched comic a higher grade).

I don't think this compares to pressing which - when present - is almost always rewarded with a higher grade by CGC (who freely offer the service).

If color touch allowed blue labeling it would increase value to a huge chunk of restored books. I can see color touch being a service offered by CGC in the future if it were to become acceptable in blue labels.

 

if purple labels are undervalued in your opinion, invest in them. Bid on them. Drive the prices up until they’re valued at what you think they should be.

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1 hour ago, Black_Adam said:

I'm hoping that - with both books having Blue same-grade labels - they will choose the comic that presents better.

The problem now is the stigma attached to a Purple label when compared to a Blue.

The stigma isn’t attached to the label. It’s attached to the restoration

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31 minutes ago, dupont2005 said:

If color touch allowed blue labeling it would increase value to a huge chunk of restored books. I can see color touch being a service offered by CGC in the future if it were to become acceptable in blue labels.

 

if purple labels are undervalued in your opinion, invest in them. Bid on them. Drive the prices up until they’re valued at what you think they should be.

I'm not sure if you've been reading my posts based on what you have written. Color touch on a comic would lower the grade the comic receives (even with the Blue label). Why would CGC offer a service that would result in a comic receiving a worse grade than it would otherwise?

 

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34 minutes ago, dupont2005 said:

The stigma isn’t attached to the label. It’s attached to the restoration

Purple labels once noted pressing and now pressed comics receive a Blue label. There no longer appears to be any stigma attached to pressing.

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33 minutes ago, dupont2005 said:

I can see color touch being a service offered by CGC in the future if it were to become acceptable in blue labels.

CGC does not offer restoration services. CCS already offers restoration services including color touch.

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2 minutes ago, Black_Adam said:

Purple labels once noted pressing

Only in conjunction with (wet) cleaning. Pressing was never considered by CGC to be restoration because sanctioned manipulation was part of the business plan.

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Posted (edited)

If anyone wants a blue label restored book you can have that across the street. They don't have a purple or green labels. It's Blue ,Yellow or red. I for one prefer to live in a world with a purple label.

Edited by JWKyle

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1 hour ago, dupont2005 said:
3 hours ago, Black_Adam said:

I'm hoping that - with both books having Blue same-grade labels - they will choose the comic that presents better.

The problem now is the stigma attached to a Purple label when compared to a Blue.

The stigma isn’t attached to the label. It’s attached to the restoration

The different colored labels (in my opinion) have created an exaggerated difference in price between Purple and Blue labels.

The market simply shunned Purple labels.

This huge difference in price has allowed savvy buyers to who know their resto, to find books that can be unrestored effectively into blue labels.

Buyers shunning Purple labels created this pricing divide and 2ndary market.

If buyers hadn't shunned them, the price difference wouldn't have been as great and not as profitable to remove the resto.

So nobody did anything wrong, but whenever there's a large difference in price in any market, someone is going to find a way to make a buck.

I do believe that if all labels were the same color from the start (with color touch notations on blue labels and a distinct way of notating quantity of CT) people would have been forced to learn the resto market better, and therefore value them better, reducing the price gap and therefore preventing or at least reducing the 2ndary market of resto removal.

 

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4 hours ago, Ride the Tiger said:

And that statement remains true. Was  no internet. In all the people I ever had contact with we never talked about restoration. Only irony is that you are now added to 1 more persons ignore list. Now argue your point all you want. L8ter.

:roflmao:

However shall I sleep tonight?

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12 hours ago, Black_Adam said:

 

The problem now is the stigma attached to a Purple label when compared to a Blue.

do you not think theres also a stigma attached to retoration that will carry over regardless of the color of the label?

Im all for assuming people are stupid and manipulatible, but that requires an big assumption of general stupidity. 

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2 hours ago, miraclemet said:
14 hours ago, Black_Adam said:

The problem now is the stigma attached to a Purple label when compared to a Blue.

do you not think theres also a stigma attached to retoration that will carry over regardless of the color of the label?

Im all for assuming people are stupid and manipulatible, but that requires an big assumption of general stupidity. 

What I think you will see eventually (or would have seen had it been done from the start) is a much better price spread for all the books that fall along the spectrum from heavily restored to no resto, rather than a huge divide between restored books and unrestored books with most restored books being clumped closer together in price.

It's just common sense that as you expose people to something they by nature learn more about it and become more accepting.

That's not to say that people who want unrestored books will start buying restored books.

It's to say that people who don't mind restored books will start paying more for books with less resto, leveling the market.

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2 hours ago, miraclemet said:

do you not think theres also a stigma attached to retoration that will carry over regardless of the color of the label?

Im all for assuming people are stupid and manipulatible, but that requires an big assumption of general stupidity. 

I think comics with CT should take a big hit in grade (it is a flaw) compared to the grade they would be given with a PLOD. My intent with my suggestion wasn't to manipulate or trick collectors into buying CT books with a Blue label - the flaw would be noted on the label as opposed to hidden in grading notes one needs to pay for - my intent was to suggest a system where comics with color touch are treated as books that have been damaged (with a corresponding Universal grade) rather than books that have been improved (with a corresponding Restored grade).

On that note, I will be retiring from this thread. I just wanted to float the suggestion not have it turn into an argument between collectors when, as earlier mentioned, we know changes will not be made (for obvious reasons).

Thanks to all who contributed to the debate!

 

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Posted (edited)

An interesting note, as I'm sure some know color touch CAN get a blue label is some instances "very minor amount of color touch on cover"  "very minor amount of glue" etc.

But anyway maybe with a little education plus more before and after shots, buyers might think twice about color scraping off big chucks and say, "Hey maybe the book was better before".

Books with a small amount of color touch seem to be one of the better bang-for-the-bucks in this hobby today.

Edited by Rip

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CGC grades off white pages the same as white pages, older books differently than moderns.

They are the professionals.

I mean for me 9.8 is pretty much pristine. I guess it matters how much you want the comic.

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