The Great First Appearance Debate- Resolved??? 1 1

[sfcityduck]

2 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

Wolverine wasn't completely unexpected due to the brief, cryptic mention of "Weapon X" earlier in the issue, but that's all the advance notice the reader got. 

Wolverine was central to the three issue story arc that is 180-182.  He first is referenced at the beginning of 180:

And he's shown at the end of the issue:

We know his name, his full look, and a bit of his "Weapon X" backstory.  

It's a first appearance.  

It just is not considered as valuable as 181 because that's the first cover and first full story.

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by sfcityduck

[kav]

6 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

Except that everyone agrees that IH 180 is Wolverine's first appearance: OPG (180 is first app, 181 is "first full story"), CGC (180 is "first appearance of Wolverine" and 181 is "first full appearance"), and the collecting community.  It's just not as valuable as IH 181 because that's his first cover and first full appearance.  

So Wolverine is just like MJ.

Wait MJ isnt on the cover of what is considered her 'first appearance' nor is it a 'full appearance' ie she's in action on multiple panels or pages.  She has one panel, the last panel of the book, just like wolverine in 180.

[sfcityduck]

5 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

 

But the whole point is that people think it's something it's not because those with influence have been wrong for so long that all most people know is the lie. I believed it too, until I actually had the opportunity to read the books a few years ago.

I no longer blindly trust those in influential positions in the hobby because I've found far too many things they got wrong.

And if you read the books you'll see that BB 54 is in TT continuity as the first coming together of that group.  DC, OPG, CGC, and most of the collecting community also agree. This debate was beaten to death previously.  No need to derail the thread because this example isn't advancing anything relevant to the labels under discussion.

[kav]

Here's the first app MJ folks:

[Lazyboy]

17 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

three issue story arc that is 180-182

[Lazyboy]

17 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

And if you read the books you'll see that BB 54 is in TT continuity as the first coming together of that group.

It's related, but that's all.

17 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

 DC, OPG, CGC, and most of the collecting community also agree.

Following others who are wrong only makes you a mindless sheep, not right. And DC has never had a consistent position.

17 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

No need to derail the thread because this example isn't advancing anything relevant to the labels under discussion.

The fact that some people can't even properly acknowledge some first appearances seems relevant to this thread.

[sfcityduck]

2 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

It's related, but that's all.

Following others who are wrong only makes you a mindless sheep, not right. And DC has never had a consistent position.

The fact that some people can't even properly acknowledge some first appearances seems relevant to this thread.

It finally dawned on me that you are the guy who previously took these positions under at least two previous board names.  Perhaps your "tenacity" in pushing your views is why you have to keep changing your nom de plume? DC has been pretty consistent on BB 54 since BB 60 and TT 1, and has only deviated twice on BB 54 being the first appearance (once as part of a retcon in the failed 70s revival and once in introducing a reprint of BB 60 which was quickly corrected a year later in the intro to a BB 54 reprint) in the 50 year history of the TT.  And DC's opinion now, and since it started publishing Archives, has been that BB 54 is clearly the first appearance.  BB 54 is part of the canon and the continuity, and the fan community has recognized it as the first appearance since the early 70s at least.  Moreover, the creators have stated in interviews that BB 54 was intended to create a new superhero group (a junior JLA), and that's exactly what it did.  The only ground you have to stand on in arguing for BB 60 as the first appearance is not the stories told in the comics, but elevating trademark (the name) over content in a desire to inflate the value of your high grade BB 60.  Sadly, that isn't working for you.  The collecting community is more interested in the TT story then they are in inflating the value of BB 60.

But, this debate was exhausted on other threads, so I think we'd be best off not derailing this thread into another 35 pages or so on this subject.

Edited September 14, 2019 by sfcityduck

[kav]

Lazyboy I'm curious in your thoughts-if BB 54 had also featured Wonder Girl, would you then consider it the first Teen Titans?  The only thing lacking would be the name, but I think unnamed characters have still been considered their first appearance eg Warlock in Thor 165.  You have the full team, together for the first time.  They dont have a team name yet because this is the first time they got together.

Edited September 14, 2019 by kav

[comicginger1789]

I consider unnamed first appearances to be actual firsts. Provided you see the character fully so that when you do get a name in the next story or future story, you know enough to say “oh so that’s the characters name from six issues ago”

[Abibliophobia]

This is a great thread. Thanks everyone who has contributed to the discussion.

To me, the various ways to describing all of the firsts are merely marketing terms and designed to expand the market (just like low print variant runs do in moderns).  I see nothing wrong promoting the hobby as I would like to see my collection appreciate in new ways.

A first appearance is what it is. It doesn’t mean that if given that particular label the book MUST be worth more than the book with the first story.  CGC doesn’t get to make this determination either (as another poster contends).  The market will decide which of the books is more valuable (180 or 181).

I think that the first appearance market tends to do a disservice to the writers.  Today, the overall market still recognizes characterization to help determine the significance of the book and not just the arbitrary panel that may show the character for the first time.  I hope that continues.  The first appearance is often also the first story as well which is why the designator has market value.  Hulk 180/181 isn’t the case and the value can be shared across both books as one is first appearance and one is first story.

A cover appearance also makes a huge difference in significance.  Obviously there’s the 180/181 case, but look at X-Men 120/121.  It’s arguable that those books are in many ways similar to 180/181 with the main exception that the first appearance of Alpha Flight was important enough to put on the cover which is one of the reasons the market values that book more. There isn’t much of Alpha Flight (the team) other than Vindicator and the arm of Sasquatch beating the out of Wolverine.  We are introduced to the team and the story in 121–yet it has the lower market value.

In summation, just let the marketers/speculators have their fun with all the hair splitting labels, and have faith that the market is rational enough (over time) to be able to identify the keys and place value where it is deserved.

Disclosure:  I own a 181, but not 180 and I feel that 180 is the first appearance.  It doesn’t threaten me to hear the designation “moved”.  The 181 has the larger significance, imho. 

[Mercury Man]

On 9/10/2019 at 11:27 PM, kav said:

One collector with deep pockets could start selling Hulk 181 cheap and buying up all the 180s at ever higher prices.  Panic would set in and 181 would drop like a stone.

You are an evil genius.  

[gadzukes]

Where does this one fit into the conversation?

Top Notch 22 has an Ad page for a new character named "Archie".  From what I have been told TN22 came out one week before Pep22.

It would qualify as a "First Preview" since it's an ad.  It would also probably qualify as "First Prototype" since the Archie in the Ad doesn't have red hair or an "R" on his shirt.

Would it qualify as "First Appearance"?

The 3.5 copy that sold on Heritage last year still didn't have ANY NOTATION on the label that Archie appears inside.  Travesty.

Collectors that know, have started paying premium prices, but it sure seems like CGC should have a label note about what's inside.

(I think it might be Wilbur's 1st appearance too)

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by gadzukes

[sfcityduck]

Action Comics 251 has a notable House ad:

The way I'd note it on a CGC label for Action 251 is "House ad for introduction of Supergirl in Action 252."

[gadzukes]

6 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

Action Comics 251 has a notable House ad:

The way I'd note it on a CGC label for Action 251 is "House ad for introduction of Supergirl in Action 252."

Superman is looking a little thick there..

[sfcityduck]

11 minutes ago, gadzukes said:

Where does this one fit into the conversation?

Top Notch 22 has an Ad page for a new character named "Archie".  From what I have been told TN22 came out one week before Pep22.

It would qualify as a "First Preview" since it's an ad.  It would also probably qualify as "First Prototype" since the Archie in the Ad doesn't have red hair or an "R" on his shirt.

Would it qualify as "First Appearance"?

The 3.5 copy that sold on Heritage last year still didn't have ANY NOTATION on the label that Archie appears inside.  Travesty.

Collectors that know, have started paying premium prices, but it sure seems like CGC should have a label note about what's inside.

(I think it might be Wilbur's 1st appearance too)

 

A house ad has never qualified as a first appearance.  It's not in a story or in continuity.  IF they were, then Action 1 would not be the most valuable comic book.  BUT, house ads for Action 1 or Pep 22 or Action 252 do increase the value of a book and are often noted now by dealers in their listings.  Put differently, house ads add value.

[gadzukes]

7 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

Put differently, house ads add value.

But not enough for CGC label notations?

That's really gotta change.

I see Action 251 doesn't have a label notation either.

Edited September 14, 2019 by gadzukes

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, Abibliophobia said:

There isn’t much of Alpha Flight (the team) other than Vindicator and the arm of Sasquatch beating the out of Wolverine.  We are introduced to the team and the story in 121–yet it has the lower market value.

AF appears quite a bit more in #120 than just Vindicator and the arm of Sasquatch. And "market value", especially in the highest grades, isn't determined by character appearances alone for these books.

2 hours ago, Abibliophobia said:

In summation, just let the marketers/speculators have their fun with all the hair splitting labels, and have faith that the market is rational enough (over time) to be able to identify the keys and place value where it is deserved.

I'd rather not. The market cannot make rational decisions when it doesn't have accurate information. The market has been duped by so-called "authorities" for decades. So, no, I'm not going to let people run around and say "Malibu Sun #13 is the first appearance of Spawn!!" or "Marvel Age #97 is the first appearance of Darkhawk!!" and not challenge them. 

2 hours ago, Abibliophobia said:

Disclosure:  I own a 181, but not 180 and I feel that 180 is the first appearance.  It doesn’t threaten me to hear the designation “moved”.  The 181 has the larger significance, imho. 

Not sure how it's 2019 and anyone...not just you, mind...is still discussing this as if it's up for debate. The first appearance of Wolverine...since roughly July of 1974...is, always has been, and always will be...barring some hitherto completely unknown to the entire comic collecting world new information...Hulk #180. It matters not what else people call it. Hulk #181 is not the first appearance of Wolverine, and never has been. Value has no bearing on any of those facts. 

[newshane]

 Let me simplify things. 

First appearance - the first time a character appears in a panel in a comicbook story. 

Therefore, Hulk 180 is the first appearance of Wolverine. 

[newshane]

21 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

So, no, I'm not going to let people run around and say "Malibu Sun #13 is the first appearance of Spawn!!"

Thank you.  

[Gaard]

I don't understand all of these stipulations on first appearances. It doesn't matter if the character is in the foreground or background, whether you see his face or not, whether the character speaks or not. (Does the character appear on the cover? Makes not one iota of difference.) If a character appears in any way, shape, or form in an issue, that is his first appearance ... period.

You can use whatever adjective you want (cameo, full, etc...), or collectors may deem another issue more desirable, or the market may deem another issue more valuable, but if the artist drew him into the story, it's his first appearance.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Gaard