Scorsese slams MCU 0

[RedRaven]

Marvel films are to cinema as Thomas Kincade is to painting.

[fantastic_four]

16 minutes ago, lightninglad said:

Tell me Captain America: Winter Soldier isn't art. I dare you. 

One of the pinnacles of literary art is widely regarded to be one simple phrase from Shakespeare's Hamlet--to be, or not to be.  It's the existential question that faces every one of us every day of our lives.  Will I choose to take arms against a sea of troubles today, and by opposing, end them?  THAT'S great art--an idea that has universal appeal and maximum potential to impact the life of an open-minded, thoughtful reader or viewer.  So while Winter Soldier is in my top 15 list of superhero films, what theme from that film has some measure of universal appeal to improve an individual or society?

Scorsese is using a connotation of the word "art" that I'm well familiar with as an English major that isn't in general usage.  When you take exception to his, mine, or anyone else's assertion that Marvel movies aren't art, I assume you believe we're saying they lack skill and craft.  I'm certainly not saying that as a hardcore fan of superheroes, and Scorsese isn't saying that, either.  He explicitly said multiple times in his Times article that there's definitely a ton of skill and craft in the films.  He's saying that he doesn't like their artistic intent.

[lightninglad]

20 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

It's a great movie, though. On its own, you don't really know what's happening. Who is Captain America? Who is Bucky? Who is Nick Fury and SHIELD? Etc etc etc.

I also think Warhol's soup painting isn't art. Screw that derivative .

By that logic Godfather 2 isn't art either?

And I agree on Warhol.

I guess my point is that it's all rather subjective and while I LOVE Scorsese as a film maker....... I don't know why you'd go and P into someone else's Wheaties. Just comes across as petty.

I'd feel better about his viewpoint if I could confirm that he's even seen Winter Soldier

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by lightninglad

[theCapraAegagrus]

Just now, lightninglad said:

By that logic Godfather 2 isn't art either?

And I agree on Warhol.

I guess my point is that it's all rather subjective and while I LOVE Scorsese as a film maker....... I don't know why you'd go into someone else's Wheaties. Just comes across as petty.

I'd feel better about his viewpoint if I could confirm that he's even seen Winter Soldier

He probably hasn't. Doesn't appear to be a comic book fan. He also only watches art.

[lightninglad]

8 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

One of the pinnacles of literary art is widely regarded to be one simple phrase from Shakespeare's Hamlet--to be, or not to be.  It's the existential question that faces every one of us every day of our lives.  Will I choose to take arms against a sea of troubles today, and by opposing, end them?  THAT'S great art--an idea that has universal appeal and maximum potential to impact the life of an open-minded, thoughtful reader or viewer.  So while Winter Soldier is in my top 15 list of superhero films, what theme from that film has some measure of universal appeal to improve an individual or society?

Scorsese is using a connotation of the word "art" that I'm well familiar with as an English major that isn't in general usage.  When you take exception to his, mine, or anyone else's assertion that Marvel movies aren't art, I assume you believe we're saying they lack skill and craft.  I'm certainly not saying that as a hardcore fan of superheroes, and Scorsese isn't saying that, either.  He explicitly said multiple times in his Times article that there's definitely a ton of skill and craft in the films.  He's saying that he doesn't like their artistic intent.

So now we're comparing Scorsese to Shakespeare..... Ok 

[lightninglad]

27 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

So while Winter Soldier is in my top 15 list of superhero films, what theme from that film has some measure of universal appeal to improve an individual or society?

It's a commentary on how the systems and securities that we have in place to make us feel safe and secure have been built upon, and the product of, evil heinous acts throughout our history. It leaves us questioning whether we should feel comfortable sacrificing certain freedoms, as well as the rights of others in order to feel safe and secure ourselves.

If you've missed the artistic intent, I encourage you to watch it again

Quote

 

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by lightninglad

[theCapraAegagrus]

9 minutes ago, lightninglad said:

It's a commentary on how the systems and securities that we have in place to make us feel safe and secure have been built upon, and the product of, evil heinous acts throughout our history. It leaves us questioning whether we should feel comfortable sacrificing certain freedoms, as well as the rights of others in order to feel safe and secure ourselves.

If you've missed the artistic intent, I encourage you to watch it again

It's a movie based on comic book characters with unrealistic features and feats...

[fantastic_four]

22 minutes ago, lightninglad said:

It's a commentary on how the systems and securities that we have in place to make us feel safe and secure have been built upon, and the product of, evil heinous acts throughout our history. It leaves us questioning whether we should feel comfortable sacrificing certain freedoms, as well as the rights of others in order to feel safe and secure ourselves.

That's a definite social message, but at best it's a minority aspect of the film.  It's social impact is also lessened by being based upon fictional events as opposed to being a fictional historical drama like Tom Clancy's movies which also never get nominated since the message in those also take a back seat to the action, but even those are more artistic than any superhero film to date since Clancy writes his fiction based upon real military or political events.  This isn't a criticism of the quality of Winter Soldier or a great Clancy movie like Hunt for Red October, either.  I love them both as much as I love any great superhero film, I just love them for an entirely different reason than I love films whose primary intent is thematic.

Edited November 5, 2019 by fantastic_four

[fantastic_four]

By the way...I'm not a huge Scorsese fan.  I do love Goodfellas, but the reason I love it has nothing to do with the theme, it's entirely the characters, the acting, the music, and the look into a culture I'm not familiar with.  Everything else of his I've forgotten shortly after seeing it, although that scene from Casino where Joe Pesci and his brother got whacked haunted me.  But not in a good way, it turned me off to the film.  I like him enough to make a point of seeing his films, but Goodfellas is the only one I find rewatchable.

[Rip]

About Scorsese. I question if he's watched a Marvel movie but instead parroted something he heard. Scorsese isn't an arbitrator of taste either. Only you can make that judgement if the movie touched you or not. I think a lot of his comments were a bit hypocritical and wildly ideological.

Both Marvel and Scorsese make great movies that I love to watch.
Scorsese has a lot to learn, I hope one day he makes that choice.

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Rip

[theCapraAegagrus]

3 minutes ago, Rip said:

About Scorsese. I question if he's watched a Marvel movie but instead parroted something he heard. Scorsese isn't an arbitrator of taste either. Only you can make that judgement if the movie touched you or not. I think a lot of his comments were a bit hypocritical and wildly ideological.

Both Marvel and Scorsese make great movies that I love to watch.
Scorsese has a lot to learn, I hope one day he makes that choice.

Show me on the doll where the movie touched you.

[Rip]

1 minute ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Show me on the doll where the movie touched you.

The right knee

[theCapraAegagrus]

Just now, Rip said:

The right knee

Damn, I see the damage.

[Mr Sneeze]

There is no denying that the overriding intent of Marvel movies is to make money. If they stop making money they will stop making the movies, period. There is no burning desire to get these stories in theaters at a loss.

That being said it does not mean they can't be good or arty, but they can only be so in a constrained and limited way. The powers that be aren't going to let a director/writer actor do anything they want that could damage the product.

[Larryw7]

WINTER SOLDIER is great entertainment, but any movie that has Jenny Agutter kicking spoon and then peeling her face off to reveal Scarlet Johansson is hard to take seriously as art.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Larryw7

[Bosco685]

15 hours ago, Mr Sneeze said:

There is no denying that the overriding intent of Marvel movies is to make money. If they stop making money they will stop making the movies, period. There is no burning desire to get these stories in theaters at a loss.

That being said it does not mean they can't be good or arty, but they can only be so in a constrained and limited way. The powers that be aren't going to let a director/writer actor do anything they want that could damage the product.

As much as I enjoy MCU films, one of my favorite Marvel films is X-Men: Days of Future Past. It was a time travel film that to me took risks, and stayed true to the source concept of mutants serving as society's persecuted minority trying to be accepted by force (Magneto) or non-violent resistance (Charles). And, it seemed focused on telling its own story without the worry of the wider franchise roadmap.

But to say Captain America: The Winter Soldier or Iron Man as standalone films are not cinema ignores their cinema contributions. The rest are definitely driven by Bob Iger's mass-appeal strategy, along with targeting building out the larger franchise. Not that this makes them less entertaining.

[fantastic_four]

1 hour ago, Bosco685 said:

But to say Captain America: The Winter Soldier or Iron Man as standalone films are not cinema ignores their cinema contributions.

I suspect there's some history with the word "cinema" he's become familiar with as a director whose connotation isn't in the general vernacular.  I've never heard anyone distinguish one film as cinema and another as not.  But I've long heard artists in multiple media distinguish art from entertainment, so I assumed he meant that, and he did clarify that's what he meant in his Times article.

[Bosco685]

Scorsese's daughter.

 

[shadroch]

It's pretty simple.

Scorsese is a genius.

If the Marvel Universe was brilliant art, he'd have come up with it.

He didn't so it isn't.

Just ask him.

[TupennyConan]

MS's films are angry pr0n. They are a negative and harmful element. That they are made well, artistically, with great taste and technical skill, makes them more so: seductive, hypnotic, and empty.

His films allure toward the abyss.