If Wolverine appeared in 2 panels of Hulk 180, then would it be his first appearance? 3 3

[Prince Namor]

So ultimately it works like this:

#180 is Wolverine's first appearance.

#181 is his first full story.

Market demand was determined a long time ago.

Darkseid's first appearance wasn't in mainstream demand until well into the speculation era, so the rules changed. People saw JO134 as the book to chase.

[Prince Namor]

Mary Jane Watson, who's first appearance was one panel in ASM #42 and first full appearance in ASM #43 didn't have a 'demand' for either really until the 'speculation era' (though many dealers for many years placed a premium more on #42 than #43).

Now those books run about neck and neck as far as price and demand. 

Personally, I find #42 to be the better issue, because that one panel is so iconic. 

#43 was one of the first comics I ever owned (around 1972/1973) - I found out about the panel from #42 in 1974 when it was reprinted in the first Marvel Treasury Edition.

[Mercury Man]

35 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Collectors READ and kept their books.

Hey lookit me!  I'ma  Collector!  

[James J Johnson]

51 minutes ago, kav said:

S-so you're saying my thread was useful after all?
@Logan510

  As are they all! 

[James J Johnson]

37 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

So ultimately it works like this:

#180 is Wolverine's first appearance.

#181 is his first full story.

Market demand was determined a long time ago.

Darkseid's first appearance wasn't in mainstream demand until well into the speculation era, so the rules changed. People saw JO134 as the book to chase.

Market demand was most likely the greatest influenced by Bob Overstreet. He's the one that set the values, their proportions to one another, in fact, in many cases, the way a key issue or first appearance will affect the issues that came next by the weight of that gravity. For instance, as Spider-man 1 went up in value, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc., etc increased in value proportionally. These proportions pretty much follow the hierarchy that Overstreet set out with in his early price guides.

Also, Overstreet's guide set the standard for which issues were "first appearances" and which were "cameos".

Edited November 26, 2019 by James J Johnson

[Prince Namor]

14 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

Market demand was most likely the greatest influenced by Bob Overstreet. He's the one that set the values, their proportions to one another, in fact, in many cases, the way a key issue or first appearance will affect the issues that came next by the weight of that gravity. For instance, as Spider-man 1 went up in value, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc., etc increased in value proportionally. These proportions pretty much follow the hierarchy that Overstreet set out with in his early price guides.

Also, Overstreet's guide set the standard for which issues were "first appearances" and which were "cameos".

I'm aware of some of the stories of shadier aspects of how he sometimes did things, but much of the information he used, he got directly from dealers.

And I don't know if you've ever read an early Overstreet, but the amount of price difference between an issue was sometimes as little as ten cents. And there are plenty of things that aren't broken out early on, that Overstreet or anyone else couldn't foresee.

He didn't CREATE the idea that Wolverine would grow in popularity and be sought out in that issue... really it was just another issue originally. But dealers saw demand, they spoke and sometimes even wrote about it for the guide and then it became a part of it. And the book people wanted was #181.

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, kav said:

The point of this thread tho isn't why 181 is the first appearance but how many panels equals a first app/where is the line drawn.

It's not about the quantity of panels, but rather relevance to the story. Plus, while art is obviously relevant in comics, it is only part of the story.

[kav]

1 minute ago, Lazyboy said:

It's not about the quantity of panels, but rather relevance to the story. Plus, while art is obviously relevant in comics, it is only part of the story.

Good point and question answered.  There is no "magic number".

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, Chuck Gower said:

So ultimately it works like this:

#180 is Wolverine's first appearance.

#181 is his first full story.

Market demand was determined a long time ago.

Darkseid's first appearance wasn't in mainstream demand until well into the speculation era, so the rules changed. People saw JO134 as the book to chase.

SPJO134 is properly called the first brief Darkseid by the vast majority of people.

Once again (for the 257th time), value is determined by supply and demand and (except in the case of instantly-hot sellouts like ASM 361), first appearances are only one factor affecting only the demand part of the equation.

[jokiing]

Funny that I found my #11 (1981-1982) Overstreet Guide today and first thing I did was look up IH  180/181/182 ...  Sharing along with #12 (1982-1983) and #48 (2018-2019)

 

[HuddyBee]

4 hours ago, kav said:

The logic has always been "well he only appears in one panel so it's a cameo".  Ok what about 2 panels?  3? 6?  2 pages?  What's the cutoff point?

I've never been a fan of the "cameo v. first appearance" discussion. I've always, and will continue to consider cameos as first appearances, and "first full appearances" as 2nd appearances. If a character is seen fully, then said character appears. I feel a cameo is more suitable to describe instances like Spiderman 298's Venom hand, while first appearance would go to 299's full venom panel/page and dialogue. With, yes, 300 being now 2nd.

If a character is visibly seem (mostly: ie, not just a hand or a leg) for the first time, or if a character appears for the first time, it is is first appearance.

Think about it, in 1974 people were buzzing for a whole month about Wolverine before issue 181 came out. They had already seen him, and read is dialogue and knew who he was. He had already appeared. It really makes no sense to think of 181 as his "first app." for he had already appeared fully to the general public a month before. I mean is there really any knew info gained concerning Wolverine in issue 181 aside from his "Canadian-ness?"

This ideology also helps my budget, as many "first full appearances" are out of my price range, while "cameos" are easily attainable.

[kav]

6 minutes ago, HuddyBee said:

If a character is seen fully, then said character appears.

THIS

I mean .... RIGHT????

Try to explain to non comic person about 181 being first app and they will start slowly edging away from you-

[Blastaar]

No

 

 

[Lazyboy]

18 minutes ago, HuddyBee said:

If a character is visibly seem (mostly: ie, not just a hand or a leg) for the first time, or if a character appears for the first time, it is is first appearance.

If a character's hand or leg appears, then they appear for the first time. What percentage of the body needs to be depicted? What parts of the body need to be depicted?

19 minutes ago, HuddyBee said:

This ideology also helps my budget, as many "first full appearances" are out of my price range, while "cameos" are easily attainable.

Ah, there it is.

 

Anyway, I am literate and understand storytelling, so I'll continue to properly acknowledge and classify brief appearances whether they are first appearances or not.

[kav]

1 minute ago, Lazyboy said:

If a character's hand or leg appears, then they appear for the first time. What percentage of the body needs to be depicted? What parts of the body need to be depicted?

What if a fingernail clipping is depicted on a table-

[HuddyBee]

1 hour ago, Lazyboy said:

If a character's hand or leg appears, then they appear for the first time. What percentage of the body needs to be depicted? What parts of the body need to be depicted?

I just feel for a character to appear, the comic ought to at least show a majority of said character. A character isn't merely represented as his hand or a part of his body. The character is the sum of all of his parts, and I wouldn't consider it an appearance if a majority of his parts making his character didn't appear.

For example comics like Spiderman 299, and Spiderman 360 would be considered "first app." of Venom and Carnage respectively, while 298 and 359 would serve as cameos.

[kav]

3 minutes ago, HuddyBee said:

I just feel for a character to appear, the comic ought to at least show a majority of said character. A character isn't merely represented as his hand or a part of his body. The character is the sum of all of his parts, and I wouldn't consider it an appearance if a majority of his parts making his character didn't appear.

For example comics like Spiderman 299, and Spiderman 360 would be considered "first app." of Venom and Carnage respectively, while 298 and 359 would serve as cameos.

I think if a head appears, like in JO 134 thats it-dude has appeared.

[HuddyBee]

Just now, kav said:

I think if a head appears, like in JO 134 thats it-dude has appeared.

Precisely, because a head is much more representative of a character than an arm or a hand.

[HuddyBee]

Here's an example with Spiderman 298 compared with 299.

Edited November 26, 2019 by HuddyBee

[kav]

Just now, HuddyBee said:

Precisely, because a head is much more representative of a character than an arm or a hand.

Right.  Unless they are some weird character where their hand is their head-