GA COMIC BOOK Collecting in the Financial crisis of 2020 3 3

[lou_fine]

17 hours ago, Tri-ColorBrian said:

Did he call the Lone Ranger the "Long Ranger" at the beginning of the video? 

Now, now, now................am I detecting just a hint of jealousy here because lucky Darren has probably done and seen things with the Lone Long Ranger that you have yet to experience in your life?    

[Tri-Color Brian]

31 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Now, now, now................am I detecting just a hint of jealousy here because lucky Darren has probably done and seen things with the Lone Long Ranger that you have yet to experience in your life?    

[lou_fine]

11 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

Hey, this means my old label 9.0 books should amp all the way up to 11! 

Hey Cat;

Maybe, just maybe................it's going to be a neck and neck race down to the wire between you and whoever owns this File Copy of Crackajack Funnies 9 featuring the first appearance of Red Ryder as to who's going to hit the big 11 sweet spot first on their way up to an even dozen:  

Will it be this CGC 9.0 certified copy of Crackajack Funnies graded back in August of 2004 when "maximization of potential" was still hush, hush, and only for people in the know:

Which then sold for $1,434 in November of 2008 when "maximization of potential" was all the rage, but I assume only partially maxizmized later as submittor was probably too cheap to pay for the whole treatment as it was only bumped up to a piddly CGC 9.6 grade, as follows:

 

This copy was then sold for $2,868 in November of 2017 before being resold once again a full year later in November of 2018 for a even $3,000.  

This last buyer must have been thinking like you in his quest for 11, as this serial number no longer shows up in the CGC database and the CGC population census report now no longer has a 9.6 graded copy in there, but the count for a 9.8 graded copy has now miraculously increased to 2 copies with this one here now joining the Church copy who was probably feeling a tad lonely sitting up there all by himself at the highest graded 9.8 perch for the longest while.  

[lou_fine]

15 minutes ago, Tri-ColorBrian said:

46 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Now, now, now................am I detecting just a hint of jealousy here because lucky Darren has probably done and seen things with the Lone Long Ranger that you have yet to experience in your life?    

Wow, the Lone Long Ranger will definitely be very HAPPY with you as it looks like you are a fast learner and laying down low in the perfect prone position all ready for him.    

[pemart1966]

2 hours ago, N e r V said:

Ok, if you say so. Then believe what you wish...

I'm just saying that it sounds like a difficult thing to do and not have the result noticeable.

[lou_fine]

8 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

I am glad that CGC could help stop DD and others that would take advantage of GA/SA collectors.

Mitch:

I think you are probably a bit confused here as to my original post.  

In this particular situation here, it was DD along with Masterchief, Red Hook, and some other boardies who identified what was actually taking place behind the scenes with CGC through their before and after image scans of books that were sometimes magnified up to the nth degree in order to point out the micro-trimming or what have you that were done to the books in order to bump up the grades.  

In the case of Danny Boy, it was probably more a case of competitive jealousy more than anything else, as his trim jobs were always much more like macro hack and whack jobs   as compared to Jason's virtually undetectable micro trim jobs.  

[jimbo_7071]

12 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Hey Cat;

Maybe, just maybe................it's going to be a neck and neck race down to the wire between you and whoever owns this File Copy of Crackajack Funnies 9 featuring the first appearance of Red Ryder as to who's going to hit the big 11 sweet spot first on their way up to an even dozen:  

Will it be this CGC 9.0 certified copy of Crackajack Funnies graded back in August of 2004 when "maximization of potential" was still hush, hush, and only for people in the know:

Which then sold for $1,434 in November of 2008 when "maximization of potential" was all the rage, but I assume only partially maxizmized later as submittor was probably too cheap to pay for the whole treatment as it was only bumped up to a piddly CGC 9.6 grade, as follows:

 

This copy was then sold for $2,868 in November of 2017 before being resold once again a full year later in November of 2018 for a even $3,000.  

This last buyer must have been thinking like you in his quest for 11, as this serial number no longer shows up in the CGC database and the CGC population census report now no longer has a 9.6 graded copy in there, but the count for a 9.8 graded copy has now miraculously increased to 2 copies with this one here now joining the Church copy who was probably feeling a tad lonely sitting up there all by himself at the highest graded 9.8 perch for the longest while.  

I don't understand how CGC could give a 9.8 grade to a book with writing on the front cover, even if the writing identifies it as a pedigree, but it sounds like they have.

[Mmehdy]

1 hour ago, jimbo_7071 said:

I don't understand how CGC could give a 9.8 grade to a book with writing on the front cover, even if the writing identifies it as a pedigree, but it sounds like they have.

It makes my argument that you cannot tell any perceptible difference between 9.6 and 9.8 and yet the market has a very significant price differential. I agree with you 9.8  with writing?...next is 9.8 with centerfold loose. 

 This make all the more reason you need to research and vet out, if you can the possible history of a major purchase of any Ga/SA  book over 1k. The headlines today say we have a 14.7% unemployment rate and this a joke,it is 25% at a minimum counting the self-employed and it is gonna get worse before it gets better.  This is no matter what gonna to impact Ga/SA prices in the long run as it will to most collectibles.

 If you have the ability to buy GA/SA and you can help out, the hardest hit part of our GA/SA comic book community please try to help. There are a number of comic shop owners who supplement their income by going to comic book shows big and small for additional income.. Some of them depend on that for their very existence to help keep the doors open. I really do not see any well attended or comic book conventions happening this year. Also, you might want to forward you want list to 10/20 comic book dealers and indicate you would interested in acquiring those books, as of course a discount. No offer is a insult during this time of crisis. They have a right to say yes or no. I will give you an example: I have a collector friend that has a book I have been trying to buy from him for the last 20 years and of course, since I want it and its generally impossible to find..l.its 5x times current market price and it goes up every year. However, he will trade for a book he wants at 3x current market price so he can get a little cash thrown in. OK. I have a dealer/collector friend who is looking for that book right now at 1 1/2 times current market price. I want to support this collector dealer who might be able to get the book at retail.and I hope he finds it and makes a profit. Win Win Win for everybody, I could do it myself but I chose not to in order keep him from going under with limited income and bills mounting and no comic book shows to help him lift himself out from the debt. The thing about old friend comic dealers or comic book shops is you dont really miss them until they are gone.As parts of the USA are reopening try to make a effort to support you local store which in the long run will help out all true GA/SA comic book collectors.

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by Mmehdy

[Mmehdy]

On 5/7/2020 at 1:45 PM, N e r V said:

Not sure how others have done it but if the book was worth getting its staples replaced I know that some have taken good staples from a like book (say a Timely from same period) and just swapped them out. So in that case they would be identical. Just like some have replaced missing centerfolds at times without CGC figuring out the book is really married. 
 

So if you have a copy of Captain America Weird Tales #74 that has some rust on its staples that hasn’t damaged the book yet and you have a low grade Little Lizzie #3 for example you simply cannibalize the less expense book. 
 

Again I am aware that has taken place at times and I as a buyer would rather have the staples swapped out than deal with future rust issues. But again every buyer is different...

WOW what a close call, is it replacement of a non-essential item or is it repair or restoration.  In the old time, strict sense any type of modification or repair would give the GA/SA book a restored or purple label. Since it goes to the binding and is not unique to the book itself IF similar staples are interchanged by obtaining the same publisher and year's staples what would be fair. I think this is the toughest call anyone can make, if you add pieces or color touch you effect the book itself, but with staple replacement you still get the same staple and GA/SA comic book. Here is my solution:

 CGC will allow submission of 2 GA Books and under the supervision of CGC, which can verify that the staples were identical both in age, type, and publisher. The CGC will allow the Ga/SA book a unrestored blue label after staple replacement. Only if they supervise the procedure, and of course charge a fee similar to the pressing service that they offer will the book be verified unrestored. 

 Independent 3d party verification and replacement could really work in this situation. CGC if you listening give that option available to owners of books whom have the possibly of future damage or lower grading due to staple damage. I would support a grade change upwards if the rusty and defective staples were replaced. The Cap # 3 in the upcoming Ha.com auction would make a prime candidate for substitution of staples. Centerfold re-attachment that could be another no-brainer no harm action on this book coming up. CGC centerfold reattachment service? 

Edited May 9, 2020 by Mmehdy

[N e r V]

1 hour ago, Mmehdy said:

WOW what a close call, is it replacement of a non-essential item or is it repair or restoration.  In the old time, strict sense any type of modification or repair would give the GA/SA book a restored or purple label. Since it goes to the binding and is not unique to the book itself IF similar staples are interchanged by obtaining the same publisher and year's staples what would be fair. I think this is the toughest call anyone can make, if you add pieces or color touch you effect the book itself, but with staple replacement you still get the same staple and GA/SA comic book. Here is my solution:

 CGC will allow submission of 2 GA Books and under the supervision of CGC, which can verify that the staples were identical both in age, type, and publisher. The CGC will allow the Ga/SA book a unrestored blue label after staple replacement. Only if they supervise the procedure, and of course charge a fee similar to the pressing service that they offer will the book be verified unrestored. 

 Independent 3d party verification and replacement could really work in this situation. CGC if you listening give that option available to owners of books whom have the possibly of future damage or lower grading due to staple damage. I would support a grade change upwards if the rusty and defective staples were replaced. The Cap # 3 in the upcoming Ha.com auction would make a prime candidate for substitution of staples. Centerfold re-attachment that could be another no-brainer no harm action on this book coming up. CGC centerfold reattachment service? 

Yeah and I do understand if CGC catches it with staple replacement that it certainly would be a purple label. But I also understand that they can be replaced without anyone being able to tell if it’s the same type staple from the same era. Apart from CGC views of things people have their own opinions of what they will accept or decline with a books condition and/or fixes. A lot of people dislike pressing but it’s also a fact you may or may not be able to detect if a books been pressed. A boardie once told me the only detectable  pressing is a bad pressing.

Me I hate rusty staples and rust damage. It’s a deal breaker for me. I used to have the same opinion with foxing  too but have loosened up to accept a little bit if I have to after gaining more knowledge on what foxing is and isn’t. 
 

I doubt we will ever reach a universal consensus of what each of us will ever accept in a books condition. I look for eye appeal and not numbers myself but I rarely sell anything these days so my stuff is for me to enjoy.

[lou_fine]

On 5/8/2020 at 9:42 AM, Mmehdy said:

On 5/8/2020 at 8:36 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

I don't understand how CGC could give a 9.8 grade to a book with writing on the front cover, even if the writing identifies it as a pedigree, but it sounds like they have.

It makes my argument that you cannot tell any perceptible difference between 9.6 and 9.8 and yet the market has a very significant price differential.

I believe you are only proving that the both of us here are old fogies from the pre-CGC generation of collectors  who couldn't tell the difference between a CGC 9.6 graded book from a CGC 9.8 graded copy of the same book.  

Especially since most of the MA CGC generation of boardies here claim that there are clear and distinct tell tale signs which allows you to distinguish a CGC 9.6 graded book from a CGC 9.8 graded book with a relatively high degree of accuracy if you know what to look for.    

Heck, I am even having problems identifying what should be the clearly visible defects between this exact same File Copy of Crackajack Funnies #9 that would account for this rather 3-grading increment differences between the 9.0 graded copy of this book to when it came back as a 9.6 graded copy:

Maybe I am just getting blind in my old age, but I really don't see anything from the 2 front cover scans that would account for this huge 3 increment differnce in grading for this File Copy of Crackajack Funnies #9.    

Let me know what you see that would account for this 3 increment difference in grading since you clearly have been in this hobby a whole lot longer than me.     

[waaaghboss]

4 hours ago, lou_fine said:

I believe you are only proving that the both of us here are old fogies from the pre-CGC generation of collectors  who couldn't tell the difference between a CGC 9.6 graded book from a CGC 9.8 graded copy of the same book.  

Especially since most of the MA CGC generation of boardies here claim that there are clear and distinct tell tale signs which allows you to distinguish a CGC 9.6 graded book from a CGC 9.8 graded book with a relatively high degree of accuracy if you know what to look for.    

Heck, I am even having problems identifying what should be the clearly visible defects between this exact same File Copy of Crackajack Funnies #9 that would account for this rather 3-grading increment differences between the 9.0 graded copy of this book to when it came back as a 9.6 graded copy:

Maybe I am just getting blind in my old age, but I really don't see anything from the 2 front cover scans that would account for this huge 3 increment differnce in grading for this File Copy of Crackajack Funnies #9.    

Let me know what you see that would account for this 3 increment difference in grading since you clearly have been in this hobby a whole lot longer than me.     

What you don't see is the bill for 3 presses and resubmissions  

[Mmehdy]

18 hours ago, lou_fine said:

I believe you are only proving that the both of us here are old fogies from the pre-CGC generation of collectors  who couldn't tell the difference between a CGC 9.6 graded book from a CGC 9.8 graded copy of the same book.  

Especially since most of the MA CGC generation of boardies here claim that there are clear and distinct tell tale signs which allows you to distinguish a CGC 9.6 graded book from a CGC 9.8 graded book with a relatively high degree of accuracy if you know what to look for.    

Heck, I am even having problems identifying what should be the clearly visible defects between this exact same File Copy of Crackajack Funnies #9 that would account for this rather 3-grading increment differences between the 9.0 graded copy of this book to when it came back as a 9.6 graded copy:

Maybe I am just getting blind in my old age, but I really don't see anything from the 2 front cover scans that would account for this huge 3 increment differnce in grading for this File Copy of Crackajack Funnies #9.    

Let me know what you see that would account for this 3 increment difference in grading since you clearly have been in this hobby a whole lot longer than me.     

My account for this is simple: Over time the CGC grading system has relaxed. There was a dealer who told me he bought a Gaines file copy of Weird Science about two years ago and that it was graded early on and that he will resubmit, it was 9.6 and it got 9.8 and he did nothing to it...period. I think we have forgotten what a 9.8 really meant, especially in the early days of CGC grading...A freak, a lighting strike, and amazing once in a lifetime buy for any GA/SA book. Grade dilution has occurred slowly over time. A 9.8 is not  what it used be. It that a good or bad thing..it depends when you graded your books, especially very high grade GA/SA. With an evolving CGC grading standard downwards you might possess a undegraded cgc book by 1 or two even 3 grades as above. This would apply especially is it was a tight call as to say 9.0 vs 9.2 and it was graded early.. I do not think you could lose by resubmission of a very early high grade Ga/SA book.

 Now your true only 9.6 copy of Cap #1 has to potentially compete against a 9.0 which has yet to pressed, cleaned, and whatever they can get away with and suddenly the population census of your book is no longer unique which leads to a potential decrease in the market value of your very high grade GA/SA from top copy in the census   to one of three. Is it fair no, is it reality..yes. What is the problem? GA/SA comic book value needs to DETACH a major value component of the current GA/SA comic book market price. We now need to discount census EXCLUSIVITY as a major factor in paying over market price just for the fact you have the top graded or 1/2 copies in that grade.

Folks anything can happen now. Look 10 years back and fast forward to today and just look at what CGC allows to retain a blue label, Look at the potential of the Franken books taking a 5.0 and making it a 9.0 or higher. I ask to to image 10 years from now..better hidden restoration with a sliding CGC grading scale downward at to what is 9.2 as opposed to a 9.4. Because the difference is so imperceptible, anything goes, but if you look to the last 10 years and forward it to the next ten...lookout you have not seen anything yet. For example the the 8,5 or 9.0 Marvel #1 which was pressed etc into a magical highest grade...If you think that is the only copy coming down the road and you could be into that book almost 1 million because its the current highest graded copy.

 I think every GA/SA collector needs to examine this issue carefully and NOT over grossly over pay, just because it is the Current highest copy or one of two etc...This is a warning that that premium or extra value paid for High grade exclusivity  can be easily erased next week, next month or next year with other brother or sister copies jumping up on the census. 

 That is why, in these incredibly difficult times, when we buy or every sell we must act rationally, responsibly and with economic smartness to build in any possible change or supply in your grade of the GA/SA book that you own, or even future GA/SA books that could surpass your current grade level , despite the fact that they are currently graded under yours in the current census.Using the current acceptable tweaking methods which CGC and Ga/SA collecting community are accepting now and adding future census dilution combined with the unknown factor of new and future restoration methods makes our collecting community subject to purchases which carry much more risk for downside in the future just like the example above Lou.

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Mmehdy

[Knightsofold]

On 5/9/2020 at 4:04 PM, Mmehdy said:

CGC will allow submission of 2 GA Books and under the supervision of CGC, which can verify that the staples were identical both in age, type, and publisher. The CGC will allow the Ga/SA book a unrestored blue label after staple replacement. Only if they supervise the procedure, and of course charge a fee similar to the pressing service that they offer will the book be verified unrestored. 

I can’t help but feel it’s unethical for one company to use an often subjectiveness to assign such monetarily changing labels while at the same time offering the services to change said label.  

[Mmehdy]

58 minutes ago, Knightsofold said:

I can’t help but feel it’s unethical for one company to use an often subjectiveness to assign such monetarily changing labels while at the same time offering the services to change said label.  

I agree it would be CGC at an advantage, but what would prevent the other services from doing it also and even the playing field and also make the pricing competitive. .It is not a perfect solution but one that might be able down the road to save a high number of GA books from artificially aging and damaging. Any other ideas Knighsfold? 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Mmehdy

[waaaghboss]

8 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

My account for this is simple: Over time the CGC grading system has relaxed. There was a dealer who told me he bought a Gaines file copy of Weird Science about two years ago and that it was graded early on and that he will resubmit, it was 9.6 and it got 9.8 and he did nothing to it...period. I think we have forgotten what a 9.8 really meant, especially in the early days of CGC grading...A freak, a lighting strike, and amazing once in a lifetime buy for any GA/SA book. Grade dilution has occurred slowly over time. A 9.8 is not  what it used be. It that a good or bad thing..it depends when you graded your books, especially very high grade GA/SA. With an evolving CGC grading standard downwards you might possess a undegraded cgc book by 1 or two even 3 grades as above. This would apply especially is it was a tight call as to say 9.0 vs 9.2 and it was graded early.. I do not think you could lose by resubmission of a very early high grade Ga/SA book.

 Now your true only 9.6 copy of Cap #1 has to potentially compete against a 9.0 which has yet to pressed, cleaned, and whatever they can get away with and suddenly the population census of your book is no longer unique which leads to a potential decrease in the market value of your very high grade GA/SA from top copy in the census   to one of three. Is it fair no, is it reality..yes. What is the problem? GA/SA comic book value needs to DETACH a major value component of the current GA/SA comic book market price. We now need to discount census EXCLUSIVITY as a major factor in paying over market price just for the fact you have the top graded or 1/2 copies in that grade.

Folks anything can happen now. Look 10 years back and fast forward to today and just look at what CGC allows to retain a blue label, Look at the potential of the Franken books taking a 5.0 and making it a 9.0 or higher. I ask to to image 10 years from now..better hidden restoration with a sliding CGC grading scale downward at to what is 9.2 as opposed to a 9.4. Because the difference is so imperceptible, anything goes, but if you look to the last 10 years and forward it to the next ten...lookout you have not seen anything yet. For example the the 8,5 or 9.0 Marvel #1 which was pressed etc into a magical highest grade...If you think that is the only copy coming down the road and you could be into that book almost 1 million because its the current highest graded copy.

 I think every GA/SA collector needs to examine this issue carefully and NOT over grossly over pay, just because it is the Current highest copy or one of two etc...This is a warning that that premium or extra value paid for High grade exclusivity  can be easily erased next week, next month or next year with other brother or sister copies jumping up on the census. 

 That is why, in these incredibly difficult times, when we buy or every sell we must act rationally, responsibly and with economic smartness to build in any possible change or supply in your grade of the GA/SA book that you own, or even future GA/SA books that could surpass your current grade level , despite the fact that they are currently graded under yours in the current census.Using the current acceptable tweaking methods which CGC and Ga/SA collecting community are accepting now and adding future census dilution combined with the unknown factor of new and future restoration methods makes our collecting community subject to purchases which carry much more risk for downside in the future just like the example above Lou.

 

Hmm, good point with the 10 year ago to today example.  I predict that 10 years from now, the CGC dial will go to 11.

[Mmehdy]

Market Report Update:

Issue: Will inflation make GA/SA comic book prices go up or down or keep flat:

Out here is California, I have noticed and a number of my friends have complained that inflation has already began to take effect on  Grocery Food Prices, Cleaning Materials, and Take Out food. At least here the prices rises have been 20/40%. I will give you an example, Out here is CA we have a market called Sprouts, its sort of a second rate Whole Foods. We shop for just about the same things each time. Even before the Virus hit, we would guess what out total would be. Our old price was about $118 per shop. When the virus hit, but no lockdown I notice a slight increase in that total to $138.00 but shrugged it off. When panic hit in buying just before the lockdown it was $158.00 for the shop...same one, different day. One month into the lock down, the bill was $178.00. Yesterday, it was $218.00. For example, I like a small frozen  pizza that I have been getting for years. Prior to the virus, for say the last year or it was $5.99 regular price and $4.99 on sale. When the initial wave of panic buying stated it was 6.99 and in the middle of lockdown it went to $7.99. It has never been on sale since the virus and yesterday  it was $9.99. I also noticed that cleaning product prices have gone up as well as take out food here, especially in the last 30 days.

 When you spend money, like the government is, and I really do not think they have choice, at some point, somebody meaning me and you are gonna have to pay it back. Paying it back in inflated dollars will be a lot easier for everyone. But we as true comic book Ga/SA collectors have paid our prices in the OLD money...which was not inflated. The extent of this inflation which is coming like a big wave, could decrease out GA/SA comic book collections in terms of REAL VALE, while we exit with same price we paid 2/5/10 years ago. We cannot buy same amount of goods and services we could of 10 years ago with the same inflated money. The converse argument is that if you have cash...a big chuck and you are getting 1% from the bank and the inflation rate is 8% you lose 7% value a year or over 50% in about 7 years. It is a fine line here. If you sell your GA book today, and buy it back with cheaper dollars down the line for the same price, that might not be such a bad thing. If you buy GA/SA comic books and they increase similar to the inflation  rate then you have preserved the value of the old money who had. Keep the money in the bank and you lose, buy the wrong thing and you lose, but corrected priced GA/SA comic books and you have a chance to break even or even make a profit thru this crisis. Smart buying buying now might make the overall cost of your entire collection decrease also which means more room to grow and less to lose overall.

 We have been thru something like this before...not related to a virus, but in past we have lived thru a term called "Stagflation"

 This will have an impact on our GA/SA comic book price market for some time to come. If anybody out there has some ideas on this subject, We would love to hear you and also if especially ideas about the financial stability of Ga/SA collecting during an stagnation and  inflationary period which appears to be upon us right now. Food for thought. 

Edited May 12, 2020 by Mmehdy

[SuperBird]

Assets hold value better than cash during inflation as a rule, so this really depends (again) on comic demand moving forward. 

[Knightsofold]

On 5/11/2020 at 1:47 PM, Mmehdy said:

I agree it would be CGC at an advantage, but what would prevent the other services from doing it also and even the playing field and also make the pricing competitive. .It is not a perfect solution but one that might be able down the road to save a high number of GA books from artificially aging and damaging. Any other ideas Knighsfold? 

For starters I would have no different colored labels and let the full descriptions with digital pictures of interior defects do the talking.

[Mmehdy]

1 hour ago, Knightsofold said:

For starters I would have no different colored labels and let the full descriptions with digital pictures of interior defects do the talking.

I like the idea of Digital pictures of the interior..great ...might up the costs a bit, but it should be offered at least as an extra. More information, better buying choice since you cannot really open up the slab to inspect. Probably should have done that all along  and will help aiding on paper quality evaluation also. With more information available, the argument about the "color" of the labels certainly diminishes as far as being potentially misleading to the novice or new GA/SA comic book collector. The color does serve a purpose here, and maybe I am old school, but it distinguish restored vs unrestored clearly..except for this Qualified conserved  mess, which adds in your argument that the color should be universal. It is so diluted now, and probably even worse in the future as more "exceptions" will be created, it might make staple replacement not as bad.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Mmehdy