Hierarchy of Golden Age Comics (2020 Edition) 1 1

[Wayne-Tec]

Hi guys,

I hope that everyone is well, especially during these difficult times. Throughout the years, I've put together annual Golden Age Hierarchy lists. I've grouped books into tiers (which is a little bit easier), I've ranked them individually, my criteria has changed and as I've said before, my list is ever-evolving. This year is no different. One of the greatest challenges for me has been: "How to you balance historical significance with desirability/FMV?" For instance, All-Star Comics #3 is far more historically significant than Action Comics #7. But the latter is much rarer, much more desirable and much more likely to "wow" you at a comic con than the former. How do you rank those two books?

 

To say this is an imperfect science would be an understatement. But with that said, I've really tried my best to incorporate a number of factors.

 

• Historical significance
• Interior content
• Cover art
• Rarity
• Desirability
• FMV
• Past impact
• Projected future impact
• Connection to pop culture/Hollywood

 

You'll likely notice that my list is a bit FMV-centric. That's my "comic book collector" side.

IIf you're interested in checking out my past lists, I've included hyperlinks below.

 

2019 Edition: LINK

2018 Edition: LINK

2017 Edition: LINK

 

I limited my list to DC, Timely and Fawcett, but I encourage people to include whatever books they'd like.

Without further ado...the list.

 

Tier-1

1. Action Comics #1

2. Detective Comics #27

 

Thoughts: Action #1 tops Detective #27 due to even greater historical significance, Superman's origin story (we don't get Batman's origin until Detective #33), an even more iconic cover (the most iconic cover of all-time) and 7 pages of Superman content vs. 3 pages of Batman content. With that said, I believe Detective #27 to be the rarer of the two books (however slightly) featuring a far more popular character in today's world. Superman > Batman 1940s-1970s, but Batman > Superman from the late 1980s into the early 2020s. Batman has topped Superman during decades when more has been invested into these characters and I would not be surprised to see Detective #27 eventually become the hobby's #1 book. We're just not there, yet.

 

Tier-2

3. Marvel Comics #1

4. Superman #1

 

Thoughts: Some will disagree with Marvel #1 even being the top Timely book, but for me, it is. While Captain America's popularity far exceeds that of the Human Torch and Sub-Mariner, Marvel Comics #1 was the birth of the Marvel Universe, with a great cover in its own right and is far, far more rare. There is almost as much new Superman content in Superman #1 than there is new Batman content in Detective #27, so that plus the 1st app. of the Kents makes Superman #1 far more than "a collection of reprints." The content of Tier-3 tops the content of Tier-2, but rarity is the difference maker between the two tiers here.

 

Tier-3

5. Batman #1

6. Captain America Comics #1

 

Thoughts: Batman #1 features the 1st app. of the Joker, 1st app. of Catwoman, Batman's origin reprinted, a classic splash (borrowed from Detective #34) and a classic front cover. Cap #1 features the 1st app. of Captain America, 1st app. of the Red Skull, 1st app. of Bucky (later to become the Winter Soldier), a classic splash and arguably, the greatest cover in comic book history. You could swap these two books if you'd like, but 2019's The Joker helped to push Batman #1 to an even higher level than it already was.

 

Tier-4

7. Whiz Comics #2 (#1)

8. Action Comics #7

9. Detective Comics #31

10. All-America Comics #16

11. Flash Comics #1

 

Thoughts: The Shazam movie helped give a little bit of spark to Whiz #2. It's place towards the top of the hobby in the 1970s helps push it to #7 on my list. Rare, classic cover, iconic GA character, successful modern day film, this book has so much going for it in addition to being the birth of the Fawcett Universe. The second most desirable Action and Detective books are clumped together with the 1st app. of the Green Lantern and the Flash.

 

Tier-5

12. Detective Comics #33

13. Detective Comics #29

14. Action Comics #13

15. Action Comics #10

16. All-Star Comics #8

17. Detective Comics #38

 

Thoughts: You could make the argument that Detective Comics #33 is the most underrated GA book in our hobby and a book that has the most potential to move upward. It's cover is comparable to other great Pre-Robin Tec covers and the origin of Batman is one of the most famous comic book stories ever told. That pushes it to the top of Tier-5 and I wouldn't be surprised to see it enter Tier-4 in the coming years.

 

Tier-6

18. Action Comics #2

19. Detective Comics #28

20. Captain America Comics #3

 

Tier-7

21. More Fun Comics #52

22. More Fun Comics #73

23. Sensation Comics #1

24. Detective Comics #35

 

Tier-8

25. All-Star Comics #3

[Chicago Boy]

Ryan - Fantastic job as always. No disagreement here on any of the tiers. I know your not an Archie collector ( and its oublisher did not make the cut ) but curious where you’d put a Pep 22. In terms of mega key character first appearance I don’t think you can get any rarer.  Tier 3 or Tier 4 ??

[Wayne-Tec]

14 minutes ago, Chicago Boy said:

Ryan - Fantastic job as always. No disagreement here on any of the tiers. I know your not an Archie collector ( and its oublisher did not make the cut ) but curious where you’d put a Pep 22. In terms of mega key character first appearance I don’t think you can get any rarer.  Tier 3 or Tier 4 ??

I don’t really feel qualified to comment on Archie books, but I’d say Tier-4. I actually like Archie #1 more than Pep #22, but that’s just me.

[Chicago Boy]

Tec 33. Underrated and undervalued imo 

[Chicago Boy]

I would move all star 8 up to Tier 4 after rethinking it. 

[Wayne-Tec]

1 hour ago, Chicago Boy said:

I would move all star 8 up to Tier 4 after rethinking it. 

Rarity is the only reason I don’t have it higher.

[Chicago Boy]

Off topic but you commented on this  in regards to rarity between the Big 2. Any thoughts on where Marvel 1 compares in rarity with AC 1 & Tec 27 ? ( both print runs combined or separately ) 

[Electricmastro]

In regards to DC writers from this time, I suppose it can help to point out whom I think gave the most long-lasting contributions to the company, and if I had to narrow it down to three, I think they would be:

Jerry Siegel - Co-created Superman and the Spectre

Bill Finger - Co-created Batman and Green Lantern

Gardner Fox - Co-created the Flash, Hawkman, Sandman, Doctor Fate, and the Justice Society of America

So going by that, I think it would make sense to include comics which correspond to them in some way.

[BuyTheRedCar]

Would/Should Adventure 40 be included?

[vheflin]

Famous Funnies #1?

Crime Does Not Pay #22?

Eerie Comics #1?

Vault of Horror #12?

Phantom Lady #17?

Edited April 21, 2020 by vheflin

[lou_fine]

1 hour ago, drwente said:

Would/Should Adventure 40 be included?

Looks like it was at the bottom of the 2019 list for last year and got demoted off the list for this year to make way for well-deserved up and comers like Cap 3 and 'Tec 35.  

Cap 3 is a definite sure fire chart buster as it continues to sell at big multiples to guide in all grade levels across the entire condition spectrum, even in restored grades.  

[Cat-Man_America]

I’ve given some thought to this and how to weigh different factors, including those missed by OG reviews and skewed grading analysis.

Without getting into specific books here’s some additional food for thought...

• Historical significance (critical for cultural studies and a valuable criteria for first appearance characters of consequence)
• Interior content (less important in the age of third party grading with so many collectors judging holdered books by covers)
• Cover art (major factor in desirability, more critical when the artist is well known, prolific and/or exceptional)
• Rarity (only of great importance when combined with other factors, of less importance if it’s the only criteria determining value)
• Desirability (this can be the same as cover art, historical significance, grade and/or all of the above)
• FMV (of least importance as many copies of books are sold privately, not recorded, at negotiated prices)
• Past impact (difficult to gauge because off the book sales remain unrecorded; popularity is a constantly changing dynamic)
• Projected future impact (crystal balls are cheap, folks who can read them accurately are at a premium; tea leaves may work better)
• Connection to pop culture/Hollywood (the least predictable factor in long term value, but successful franchises tend to rule)
• Pedigree (provenance is already a factor that plays a role in determining value, but will be of increasing importance in the future)
• Familiarity & fatigue (when a popular book or series loses luster from being too popular or revised to the point of less relevance)

 

Trail of Tiers:

When it comes to top tier winners the usual suspects invariably come to mind and there’s only marginal change from year to year in respect to where those books place on the long established scale of popularity.  However, there are missed sales which would likely change the Top book hierarchy if known and accurately recorded.  For instance, the private sale of a rare book in grade with a desirable pedigree might trump the public auction sale established position of a tiered book.  We probably all know of such sales.  Too often auction sales are used as a barometer of value, when in fact it usually boils down to two determined bidders.  This kind of high wire market assessment leads to outliers and misleading long term values and correspondingly skewed demand.

Wayne-Tec has done a phenomenal job here and I’m not throwing shade on any of it.  The research is based on traditional sourcing and looks very sound as far as it goes.  I’ve added a couple of more parameters that I consider important in establishing a well reasoned hierarchy of books.  There’s very little that I’d change in respect to the top twenty or so books.  When it comes to the bottom line, money talks.  Below a certain point, when we get into the thirties, forties and fifties of top 100 books, things get dicier.  Preference for books in specific grades and provenance combined with what collectors are willing to pay for those desired books starts to influence the hierarchy.  

These musings are just my considered opinions, other’s mileage, ...etcetera.  It has been suggested that the journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.  What’s usually left out of that sage wisdom is the part about the boot up the backside that precedes it.

[Wayne-Tec]

7 hours ago, drwente said:

Would/Should Adventure 40 be included?

It was very close to making the list.

[Wayne-Tec]

3 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

I’ve given some thought to this and how to weigh different factors, including those missed by OG reviews and skewed grading analysis.

Without getting into specific books here’s some additional food for thought...

• Historical significance (critical for cultural studies and a valuable criteria for first appearance characters of consequence)
• Interior content (less important in the age of third party grading with so many collectors judging holdered books by covers)
• Cover art (major factor in desirability, more critical when the artist is well known, prolific and/or exceptional)
• Rarity (only of great importance when combined with other factors, of less importance if it’s the only criteria determining value)
• Desirability (this can be the same as cover art, historical significance, grade and/or all of the above)
• FMV (of least importance as many copies of books are sold privately, not recorded, at negotiated prices)
• Past impact (difficult to gauge because off the book sales remain unrecorded; popularity is a constantly changing dynamic)
• Projected future impact (crystal balls are cheap, folks who can read them accurately are at a premium; tea leaves may work better)
• Connection to pop culture/Hollywood (the least predictable factor in long term value, but successful franchises tend to rule)
• Pedigree (provenance is already a factor that plays a role in determining value, but will be of increasing importance in the future)
• Familiarity & fatigue (when a popular book or series loses luster from being too popular or revised to the point of less relevance)

 

Trail of Tiers:

When it comes to top tier winners the usual suspects invariably come to mind and there’s only marginal change from year to year in respect to where those books place on the long established scale of popularity.  However, there are missed sales which would likely change the Top book hierarchy if known and accurately recorded.  For instance, the private sale of a rare book in grade with a desirable pedigree might trump the public auction sale established position of a tiered book.  We probably all know of such sales.  Too often auction sales are used as a barometer of value, when in fact it usually boils down to two determined bidders.  This kind of high wire market assessment leads to outliers and misleading long term values and correspondingly skewed demand.

Wayne-Tec has done a phenomenal job here and I’m not throwing shade on any of it.  The research is based on traditional sourcing and looks very sound as far as it goes.  I’ve added a couple of more parameters that I consider important in establishing a well reasoned hierarchy of books.  There’s very little that I’d change in respect to the top twenty or so books.  When it comes to the bottom line, money talks.  Below a certain point, when we get into the thirties, forties and fifties of top 100 books, things get dicier.  Preference for books in specific grades and provenance combined with what collectors are willing to pay for those desired books starts to influence the hierarchy.  

These musings are just my considered opinions, other’s mileage, ...etcetera.  It has been suggested that the journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.  What’s usually left out of that sage wisdom is the part about the boot up the backside that precedes it.

Thank you for all the great feedback. What would your list look like, taking into account the points you mentioned above?

[sfcityduck]

On 4/20/2020 at 10:15 AM, Wayne-Tec said:

, I've really tried my best to incorporate a number of factors.

 

• Historical significance
• Interior content
• Cover art
• Rarity
• Desirability
• FMV
• Past impact
• Projected future impact
• Connection to pop culture/Hollywood

Tier-3

5. Batman #1

6. Captain America Comics #1

 

 

I can't argue with Tier 1 and 2 (although I put Superman above MC 1).  
But, CA 1 is a clear cut or two or three below Batman 1.   IMHO, CA 1 is the most overrated book of the GA.  CA is a second tier character who blazed no new trails in the GA or the SA.  Even as a rip-off of a trend, he's no Captain Marvel in terms of his historical significance or popularity.  His movie heyday has come and gone and he had a less successful movie/tv career overall than Wonder Woman.  CA 1's historical significance is de minimis (not first anything other than CA), it's interiors were rushed, it's cover is not even close to a top 10 Timely cover, it is not rare, desirability is a tautological category on this type of list, FMV is not above AS 8, past impact is not as great as many other books, and projected future impact is not great now that CA is out of the Marvel Movie Universe.   

It is a favorite of dealers because it is sufficiently plentiful that they can keep on churning the sales.  So I expect few here will agree with me. 

There are a lot of comics I'd rather have than CA 1.  Patriotic super heroes are the least popular type of superheroes over the years, and CA was just another Shield rip-off like Uncle Sam, etc.  S&K only handled the art for less than a year (and I'm not a huge S&K fan as I prefer many other GA artists), and the best covers were later in the series (and they weren't Alex S's best timely covers).  Apologies to those who own and love this book, but it's not tier 3 on my list.

Edited April 22, 2020 by sfcityduck

[lou_fine]

2 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

But, CA 1 is a clear cut or two or three below Batman 1.   IMHO, CA 1 is the most overrated book of the GA.  CA is a second tier character who blazed no new trails in the GA or the SA.  Even as a rip-off of a trend, he's no Captain Marvel in terms of his historical significance or popularity.  His movie heyday has come and gone and he had a less successful movie/tv career overall than Wonder Woman.  CA 1's historical significance is de minimis (not first anything other than CA), it's interiors were rushed, it's cover is not even close to a top 10 Timely cover, it is not rare, desirability is a tautological category on this type of list, FMV is not above AS 8, past impact is not as great as many other books, and projected future impact is not great now that CA is out of the Marvel Movie Universe.   

Instead of beating around the bush, why don't you just come straight out and tell us exactly what you think about Cap 1 here.  

Boy, I think you must be a real masohist and just asking for it  as I think it's high time to call the King of Comics (i.e. @Mmehdy ) himself to come in and defend the good Captain's name from such blasphemous talk.    

Edited April 22, 2020 by lou_fine

[Cat-Man_America]

6 hours ago, Wayne-Tec said:

Thank you for all the great feedback. What would your list look like, taking into account the points you mentioned above?

Nostomania does a fair job of assessing values and incremental adjustments up and down over a range of months and years.  

https://www.nostomania.com/servlets/com.nostomania.CatPage?name=Top100ComicsMain

However, Nostomania lumps Silver Age books into the mix of top down values, and the arbitrary 9.4 grade parameter doesn't take into account the rarity of some GA which may only exist in lower grade and/or low numbers census-wise.  Also, pedigrees aren't factored in and assessed.  My list would take into account pedigrees and assess from highest graded copies along with presumed number of known copies.  That said, composing and tracking lists is a laborious process.

In a perfect world valuable GA books would be sorted into three lists, one that features DC books, one that features Timely/Marvel and a third that features all other publishers.  That may sound crazy ...scratch that... I'm pretty sure it sounds crazy, but the idea would be to proactively provide a broader spectrum of books to a wide range of collectors for reevaluation of values.  In order to do that I'd probably hold the two majors to just the Top 50 on their respective lists.

OK, here's the fine print: Problems will persist in any system which fails to take into account private purchases.  So, how can values be established if purchases still remain private?  Alas, I don't have a good answer for that.  The bottom line is that auction sales aren't a dependable enough way to forecast a market.  Gauging values from last-man-standing auctions is like trying to maneuver a sailing ship in shifting wind without a rudder.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Cat-Man_America

[Wayne-Tec]

11 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

I can't argue with Tier 1 and 2 (although I put Superman above MC 1).  
But, CA 1 is a clear cut or two or three below Batman 1.   IMHO, CA 1 is the most overrated book of the GA.  CA is a second tier character who blazed no new trails in the GA or the SA.  Even as a rip-off of a trend, he's no Captain Marvel in terms of his historical significance or popularity.  His movie heyday has come and gone and he had a less successful movie/tv career overall than Wonder Woman.  CA 1's historical significance is de minimis (not first anything other than CA), it's interiors were rushed, it's cover is not even close to a top 10 Timely cover, it is not rare, desirability is a tautological category on this type of list, FMV is not above AS 8, past impact is not as great as many other books, and projected future impact is not great now that CA is out of the Marvel Movie Universe.   

It is a favorite of dealers because it is sufficiently plentiful that they can keep on churning the sales.  So I expect few here will agree with me. 

There are a lot of comics I'd rather have than CA 1.  Patriotic super heroes are the least popular type of superheroes over the years, and CA was just another Shield rip-off like Uncle Sam, etc.  S&K only handled the art for less than a year (and I'm not a huge S&K fan as I prefer many other GA artists), and the best covers were later in the series (and they weren't Alex S's best timely covers).  Apologies to those who own and love this book, but it's not tier 3 on my list.

These are the kinds of posts I love. I don’t agree with you on Cap #1’s place, but it’s refreshing to see thoughtful posts like this and to know that I’m not alone in my appreciation for comic book history.

To your points though...

Cap is definitely in a lower tier than Superman. So was Batman, for many, many decades, but Batman was still above Cap.

If I placed more emphasis on a hierarchy of “characters” themselves, there’s no way Marvel #1 would crack my Top-5. It probably wouldn’t crack my Top-10 either and would have to be ranked below Detective Comics #38.

The Human Torch and Sub-Mariner don’t belong in the same sentence as Robin if we’re talking 1st tier vs. lower tier characters.

As far as Cap being a “rip off”, he definitely wasn’t the first patriotic superhero. No debate there. But for me personally, being “the first patriotic superhero”, while important, isn’t something that would elevate a character into my Top-3 tiers anyway.

Cap’s success and longevity is why his origin and entry into the comic book world is so significant now. Had he faded out to the degree of The Shield or Uncle Sam, we probably wouldn’t appreciate his history the same way.

Similar to how we appreciate Superman vs. how we appreciate The Phantom. Not perfectly analogous, I admit, but I think you get the idea.

What happens in the decades following the book’s newsstand arrival impacts the importance of that book in a big way for me.

Had Marvel not become the undisputed king of comic books, I wouldn’t have Marvel Comics #1 ranked in my Top-3. It would be closer to Whiz #2 but without a character as notable as Captain Marvel.

What we know now is 1) Marvel is the No. 1 comic book empire in the world today, and historically. 2) Cap is by far the most popular and important Marvel character of the Timely era. 3) Cap produced some of the best superhero films of all-time (IMO, Winter Soldier was the best MCU movie to-date). 4) There are “Marvel Zombie” comic book collectors who aren’t interested in Superman or Batman books.

Cap’s historical significance, especially as it pertains to Cap #1, is impacted by the grim reality of Adolph Hitler’s evil, the fact that S&K used the book to speak out against that evil and the irony of Cap fighting the Nazi’s before the United States entered WWII. It’s a different kind of historical significance, but one that relates to both comic book history and real world history. Because of this, you could argue that Cap #1 has historical significance that other long-lasting superhero characters can’t relate to.

The book isn’t nearly as scarce as Action #1 or Marvel #1, but I don’t know if I would use the phrase “sufficiently plentiful.” It isn’t Hulk #181 or X-Men #94. There are more copies of Batman #1 than Cap #1 and I wouldn’t rank Batman #1 below a rarer book like Action #7 because of it.

Has All Star #8 surpasses Cap #1 in current FMV? I don’t believe it has, but I could be mistaken.

We will have to agree to disagree on Cap #1 not being a Top-10 Timely cover. It may just be that our criteria is different though. For me, it’s not about artistic detail (there’s probably a better phrase). For instance, I consider Detective #31 to be one of the greatest covers of the GA. But if artistic detail were my criteria, it wouldn’t crack the Top-100. Same logic applies to Action #1, AF #15, etc. I’d argue that Cap #1 is the greatest cover in comic book history and I know I’m not alone in that regard.

Beyond the real world history that connects to Cap #1, I also wouldn’t describe it’s interior content as “de minimus”  or “not first anything other than CA.”

• 1st app. of Captain America

• Origin of Captain America (one of the most famous origins in comic book history)

• 1st app. of the Red Skull

• 1st app. of Bucky Barnes (who later becomes the Winter Soldier)

• 1st notable GA superhero to debut in his own title

At the end of the day, I struggled to rank the book 6th overall because it has a lot of things that 3rd-5th don’t have.

But I appreciate different points of view because it makes for fun discussion and gives us another reason to appreciate the hobby as a whole.

[Mmehdy]

1 hour ago, Wayne-Tec said:

These are the kinds of posts I love. I don’t agree with you on Cap #1’s place, but it’s refreshing to see thoughtful posts like this and to know that I’m not alone in my appreciation for comic book history.

To your points though...

Cap is definitely in a lower tier than Superman. So was Batman, for many, many decades, but Batman was still above Cap.

If I placed more emphasis on a hierarchy of “characters” themselves, there’s no way Marvel #1 would crack my Top-5. It probably wouldn’t crack my Top-10 either and would have to be ranked below Detective Comics #38.

The Human Torch and Sub-Mariner don’t belong in the same sentence as Robin if we’re talking 1st tier vs. lower tier characters.

As far as Cap being a “rip off”, he definitely wasn’t the first patriotic superhero. No debate there. But for me personally, being “the first patriotic superhero”, while important, isn’t something that would elevate a character into my Top-3 tiers anyway.

Cap’s success and longevity is why his origin and entry into the comic book world is so significant now. Had he faded out to the degree of The Shield or Uncle Sam, we probably wouldn’t appreciate his history the same way.

Similar to how we appreciate Superman vs. how we appreciate The Phantom. Not perfectly analogous, I admit, but I think you get the idea.

What happens in the decades following the book’s newsstand arrival impacts the importance of that book in a big way for me.

Had Marvel not become the undisputed king of comic books, I wouldn’t have Marvel Comics #1 ranked in my Top-3. It would be closer to Whiz #2 but without a character as notable as Captain Marvel.

What we know now is 1) Marvel is the No. 1 comic book empire in the world today, and historically. 2) Cap is by far the most popular and important Marvel character of the Timely era. 3) Cap produced some of the best superhero films of all-time (IMO, Winter Soldier was the best MCU movie to-date). 4) There are “Marvel Zombie” comic book collectors who aren’t interested in Superman or Batman books.

Cap’s historical significance, especially as it pertains to Cap #1, is impacted by the grim reality of Adolph Hitler’s evil, the fact that S&K used the book to speak out against that evil and the irony of Cap fighting the Nazi’s before the United States entered WWII. It’s a different kind of historical significance, but one that relates to both comic book history and real world history. Because of this, you could argue that Cap #1 has historical significance that other long-lasting superhero characters can’t relate to.

The book isn’t nearly as scarce as Action #1 or Marvel #1, but I don’t know if I would use the phrase “sufficiently plentiful.” It isn’t Hulk #181 or X-Men #94. There are more copies of Batman #1 than Cap #1 and I wouldn’t rank Batman #1 below a rarer book like Action #7 because of it.

Has All Star #8 surpasses Cap #1 in current FMV? I don’t believe it has, but I could be mistaken.

We will have to agree to disagree on Cap #1 not being a Top-10 Timely cover. It may just be that our criteria is different though. For me, it’s not about artistic detail (there’s probably a better phrase). For instance, I consider Detective #31 to be one of the greatest covers of the GA. But if artistic detail were my criteria, it wouldn’t crack the Top-100. Same logic applies to Action #1, AF #15, etc. I’d argue that Cap #1 is the greatest cover in comic book history and I know I’m not alone in that regard.

Beyond the real world history that connects to Cap #1, I also wouldn’t describe it’s interior content as “de minimus”  or “not first anything other than CA.”

• 1st app. of Captain America

• Origin of Captain America (one of the most famous origins in comic book history)

• 1st app. of the Red Skull

• 1st app. of Bucky Barnes (who later becomes the Winter Soldier)

• 1st notable GA superhero to debut in his own title

At the end of the day, I struggled to rank the book 6th overall because it has a lot of things that 3rd-5th don’t have.

But I appreciate different points of view because it makes for fun discussion and gives us another reason to appreciate the hobby as a whole.

I could not of  said it better. But I will add that early on, in 1973 Cap#1 cracked $1000 before Batman 1 and Sup #1. It clearly is a great book  and has in my opinion one of the greatest timely  Hitler covers, the weakness if any is the release date in relation to Bat and Sup #1.Cap#1 might not be Scifyduck"s favorite but in terms of pure value I would take Cap1 over All Star 8 in a New York Minute.  In a way it was ahead of its time as it was not until December 1941 that Germany declared war on us officially.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Mmehdy

[sfcityduck]

56 minutes ago, Wayne-Tec said:

These are the kinds of posts I love. I don’t agree with you on Cap #1’s place, but it’s refreshing to see thoughtful posts like this and to know that I’m not alone in my appreciation for comic book history.  [Completely agree that it is fun and interesting to have these kinds of discussions!]

To your points though...

Cap is definitely in a lower tier than Superman. So was Batman, for many, many decades, but Batman was still above Cap.  [Agree!]

If I placed more emphasis on a hierarchy of “characters” themselves, there’s no way Marvel #1 would crack my Top-5. It probably wouldn’t crack my Top-10 either and would have to be ranked below Detective Comics #38.  [Agree!  But also agree that a books rank should not hinge on its characters.  For me, New Fun 1, Detective 1, MC 1 are all important GA books.  More so than some on your list.]

The Human Torch and Sub-Mariner don’t belong in the same sentence as Robin if we’re talking 1st tier vs. lower tier characters.  [Agree.  Robin had more GA appearances in comics than Batman!]

As far as Cap being a “rip off”, he definitely wasn’t the first patriotic superhero. No debate there. But for me personally, being “the first patriotic superhero”, while important, isn’t something that would elevate a character into my Top-3 tiers anyway.  [I do think there is some historical significance to firsts, and first Patriotic superhero is one of those given the import of WWII to comics history.  But, that quickly gets tired when we talk about speedsters, wings, etc.]

Cap’s success and longevity is why his origin and entry into the comic book world is so significant now. Had he faded out to the degree of The Shield or Uncle Sam, we probably wouldn’t appreciate his history the same way.  [CA has had some longetivity.  But, he is way below, to use your example, Robin on that scale.  And even further behind Archie.  CA failed as a character before the end of the 1940s, and had only a very brief 1950s revival, and wasn't brought back until 1964.  Robin was a constant from the 1930s onward, and Archie from the 1940s onward.  And he's fading now.  I'm not sure CA as a comic title has ever been first tier in the Silver/Bronze/Modern ages.  His current import is as an Avenger.]

Similar to how we appreciate Superman vs. how we appreciate The Phantom. Not perfectly analogous, I admit, but I think you get the idea.  [I do.]

What happens in the decades following the book’s newsstand arrival impacts the importance of that book in a big way for me.  [True.  Which is why I think the first appearance of DC and Marvel comics are big books.]

Had Marvel not become the undisputed king of comic books, I wouldn’t have Marvel Comics #1 ranked in my Top-3. It would be closer to Whiz #2 but without a character as notable as Captain Marvel.  [Agree.  Captain Marvel was way bigger from the 1930s-1950s than CA, for example, and he was revived in the 1970s and now is headlining movies.  The upside on Whiz 2's import may dwarf that of CA 1.]

What we know now is 1) Marvel is the No. 1 comic book empire in the world today, and historically.  [I'll leave the DC/Marvel debate to others, and call it a tie] 2) Cap is by far the most popular and important Marvel character of the Timely era. [Disagree.  I'd actually go with Human Torch, who appeared earlier, got his own title earlier, had a greater GA run than CA, had a great 50s revival, and was revived earlier in the 60s, followed shortly by Subby.] 3) Cap produced some of the best superhero films of all-time (IMO, Winter Soldier was the best MCU movie to-date) [I'm a bigger fan of other MCU films than the CA solo acts]. 4) There are “Marvel Zombie” comic book collectors who aren’t interested in Superman or Batman books.  [So?]

Cap’s historical significance, especially as it pertains to Cap #1, is impacted by the grim reality of Adolph Hitler’s evil, the fact that S&K used the book to speak out against that evil and the irony of Cap fighting the Nazi’s before the United States entered WWII. It’s a different kind of historical significance, but one that relates to both comic book history and real world history. Because of this, you could argue that Cap #1 has historical significance that other long-lasting superhero characters can’t relate to.  [Marvel was not the only publisher critical of the Germans when CA 1 came out - as you know Centaur was ahead of the curve - and it wasn't that outrageous given the tenor of the time.  But it is a cool facet of the book.  Lots of collectors of Hitler covers - and yes DC did them too.]

The book isn’t nearly as scarce as Action #1 or Marvel #1, but I don’t know if I would use the phrase “sufficiently plentiful.” It isn’t Hulk #181 or X-Men #94. There are more copies of Batman #1 than Cap #1 and I wouldn’t rank Batman #1 below a rarer book like Action #7 because of it.  [Agree.]

Has All Star #8 surpasses Cap #1 in current FMV? I don’t believe it has, but I could be mistaken.  [All Star 8 $936,223.00 on Ebay on 2017/08/27; CA 1 $915,000.00 on Heritage on 2019/08/12 (two years later)]

We will have to agree to disagree on Cap #1 not being a Top-10 Timely cover. It may just be that our criteria is different though. For me, it’s not about artistic detail (there’s probably a better phrase). For instance, I consider Detective #31 to be one of the greatest covers of the GA. But if artistic detail were my criteria, it wouldn’t crack the Top-100. Same logic applies to Action #1, AF #15, etc. I’d argue that Cap #1 is the greatest cover in comic book history and I know I’m not alone in that regard.  [For me CA 1 is not even close to greatest Timely cover, let alone in comic history.  I much prefer Alex S's Timely covers to S&K.  And there are a lot of great comic covers by great artists.]

Beyond the real world history that connects to Cap #1, I also wouldn’t describe it’s interior content as “de minimus”  or “not first anything other than CA.”

• 1st app. of Captain America  [Discussed above]

• Origin of Captain America (one of the most famous origins in comic book history) [I'm not sure I agree CA's origin is that famous.  Certainly not more notable or well known as Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman]

• 1st app. of the Red Skull [Which is a big deal to CA fans, but matter little to me.]

• 1st app. of Bucky Barnes (who later becomes the Winter Soldier) [Bucky was just one in a string of Robin immitators.  Timely was a trend follower with CA and Bucky.  And the Winter Soldier is not that big a deal to me.]

• 1st notable GA superhero to debut in his own title [Not sure "notable superhero" debut is a legit category since what is "notable" changes over time.  He's not even Timely's first superhero to debut in his own book.]

At the end of the day, I struggled to rank the book 6th overall because it has a lot of things that 3rd-5th don’t have.  [Batman 1 has first and second Joker (probably greatest villain of all time) stories, first Catwoman (probably greatest villain/love interest of all time), has both pre-Robin and Robin stories (only comic to have that I think), the Batman origin, a Hugo Strange (notable GA villain) appearance, Batman killing villains with guns, a Bob Kan bio, and a great pin-up.  What else to you want?]

But I appreciate different points of view because it makes for fun discussion and gives us another reason to appreciate the hobby as a whole.

For me the dollars don't really matter.  So Action 7, 10 and 13 aren't nearly as high in my hierarchy as you put them.  Pep 1, Pep 22 and Archie 1 outrank them.  Detective 38 is probably the least appreciated GA book IMHO.