The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Get Marwood & I]

40 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

So the regular numbers indicate returnable in that case.

And the sequence of them indicates the end of the shelf life.

I suggested this some time back, but the response I got was 'Pshaw!!', or words to that effect.

Worth having another look at?

Sorry if that 'pshaw' impression came from me Albert - I'm always open to considering new ways of looking at things, especially from those like yourself who actually collected during the period in question. That would never be my intention as hopefully anyone who follows my threads will recognise. But I still remain unconvinced on the shelf life theory as it makes no operational sense to me. I've forgotten what I already posted on this, but for me the cover date and issue numbers are the more salient, obvious indictors of shelf life. Being limited to 9 numbers, and not therefore aligned to calendar months, I feel the system you propose would be unnecessarily complicated for newsagents to keep up with, especially given the many, many examples of books being out of stamp sequence (as my snapshot tables will show). 

I can't imagine a newsagent picking up a freshly received 1 and saying "Ah, this latest delivery is stamped a 1, I better take off the 8s and 9s" and start taking those books off the shelf. Surely, he'd just take the books off the shelf that had the same title as the new delivery. Or, if he wanted the last two issues or more to stay up for sale, he'd just look at the issue numbers - wouldn't he?

I'm 100% on board with the stamp numbering matching the shipping deliveries and the data sequencing supports that concept completely. I also believe the stamp numbers had some internal relevance to T&P.  They chose 1-9 stamps for a reason and we may never know what that reason was. But I still don't buy the idea that the stamp numbers were an indicator to the newsagents. As Garystar said, rightly, you can't read half the damn things anyway. 

If there is an angle I'm missing, I'm open to it Albert. If you can find a smoking gun - say, an old sheet of T&P headed paper, that was delivered to newsagents in the day with a 'take off and send back 2 when you receive 3' etc etc set of instructions, I'll think again 

[OtherEric]

2 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Sorry if that 'pshaw' impression came from me Albert - I'm always open to considering new ways of looking at things, especially from those like yourself who actually collected during the period in question. That would never be my intention as hopefully anyone who follows my threads will recognise. But I still remain unconvinced on the shelf life theory as it makes no operational sense to me. I've forgotten what I already posted on this, but for me the cover date and issue numbers are the more salient, obvious indictors of shelf life. Being limited to 9 numbers, and not therefore aligned to calendar months, I feel the system you propose would be unnecessarily complicated for newsagents to keep up with, especially given the many, many examples of books being out of stamp sequence (as my snapshot tables will show). 

I can't imagine a newsagent picking up a freshly received 1 and saying "Ah, this latest delivery is stamped a 1, I better take off the 8s and 9s" and start taking those books off the shelf. Surely, he'd just take the books off the shelf that had the same title as the new delivery. Or, if he wanted the last two issues or more to stay up for sale, he'd just look at the issue numbers - wouldn't he?

I'm 100% on board with the stamp numbering matching the shipping deliveries and the data sequencing supports that concept completely. I also believe the stamp numbers had some internal relevance to T&P.  They chose 1-9 stamps for a reason and we may never know what that reason was. But I still don't buy the idea that the stamp numbers were an indicator to the newsagents. As Garystar said, rightly, you can't read half the damn things anyway. 

If there is an angle I'm missing, I'm open to it Albert. If you can find a smoking gun - say, an old sheet of T&P headed paper, that was delivered to newsagents in the day with a 'take off and send back 2 when you receive 3' etc etc set of instructions, I'll think again 

I need to slightly disagree with your assessment of the newsagent, I'm afraid.  It could be "if I don't get the 8s and 9s returned within a certain window, I don't get credit".  And there were definitely other ways of figuring out what went back a given week than seeing if the next issue was out... the colored marks at the top of pages, for example.  Particularly with imports like these, the dates and issue numbers might be even less relevant.  It's also complicated by the constantly drifting cover dates of comics, which used to be as much as four months before reality.

[OtherEric]

To clarify what I mean by color marks (using US books to demonstrate or it would be colour, of course).  This was added after printing, I believe:

Edited November 10, 2020 by OtherEric
Autocorrect on phone messed up colour joke

[OtherEric]

And a couple later ones which were printed right on the books

[Get Marwood & I]

1 minute ago, OtherEric said:

I need to slightly disagree with your assessment of the newsagent, I'm afraid.  It could be "if I don't get the 8s and 9s returned within a certain window, I don't get credit".  And there were definitely other ways of figuring out what went back a given week than seeing if the next issue was out... the colored marks at the top of pages, for example.  Particularly with imports like these, the dates and issue numbers might be even less relevant.  It's also complicated by the constantly drifting cover dates of comics, which used to be as much as four months before reality.

Good points - how would a newsagent have dealt with these three cover date consecutive issues I wonder, had he received them all as 9s?

When I post up the tables tomorrow (hopefully) I'll try to highlight where the issues are out of sequence, bunched etc to illustrate how erratic that process would have been. I'm not saying you and Albert are wrong at all - I just find it so 'onerous' for want of a better word. How would you document a returns schedule which had 9 numbers, 12 months, and (it appears) 12 annual deliveries? You'd make a stamp withy 12 numbers, surely?

All good fun 

[Get Marwood & I]

1 minute ago, OtherEric said:

And a couple later ones which were printed right on the books

Colour-blind newsagents of the world, unite and take over! 

[OtherEric]

Holding the stack of the gold key/ Whitman Buck Rogers, you can see where they dropped the color when they went to the non returnable bags.  Sorry for spreading the posts out, side effect of using my phone to take pics.  But it shows where the dealers didn’t go by cover info like normal people would expect.

Edited November 10, 2020 by OtherEric

[OtherEric]

7 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Good points - how would a newsagent have dealt with these three cover date consecutive issues I wonder, had he received them all as 9s?

When I post up the tables tomorrow (hopefully) I'll try to highlight where the issues are out of sequence, bunched etc to illustrate how erratic that process would have been. I'm not saying you and Albert are wrong at all - I just find it so 'onerous' for want of a better word. How would you document a returns schedule which had 9 numbers, 12 months, and (it appears) 12 annual deliveries? You'd make a stamp withy 12 numbers, surely?

All good fun 

That Strange Adventures 110 is still a great cover.  Not sure what Iron Man is doing on the cover of 112, though...

Agreed that a cycle of 12 on the stamp seems more intuitive.  Maybe for some reason they were trying to deliberately avoid associating the number with a specific month?  That's one of the answers that seems likely lost in time... Maybe they got a good deal on stamps with a single digit changer?

[Get Marwood & I]

6 minutes ago, OtherEric said:

Holding the stack of the gold key/ Whitman Buck Rogers, you can see where they dropped the color when they went no the non returnable bags.  Sorry for spreading the posts out, side effect of using my phone to take pics.  But it shows where the dealers didn’t go by cover info like normal people would expect.

[Get Marwood & I]

Guys, with all these interruptions I'm never gonna finish these f tables!  

 

I kid, I kid.... Love it really 

[Get Marwood & I]

Actually, I've gone boss-eyed. Time to retire to the society lounge I think.

See you all tomorrow chaps, for chapter 895 of 'Adventures in Penceville' 

P.S. @Albert Tatlock, I spotted it, even with me dodgy mince pies:

Only one day out in the US of A. Or 3 months in Blighty!

[Albert Tatlock]

The newsagent, if the top number indicates a connection to expiry date, would not have needed to sift through cover dates, which would have contained late arrival examples out of sync calendar wise. If he was entitled to a credit on unsold items, he would have needed to know, not how long it had been since the magazine had been printed, but how long it had lain on his shelf.

Surely the habit of US retailers adding arrival dates to the cover serves the same purpose. He already had the issue date, what he needed in addition, or instead of, that, was an indication of how long the item had been in his store, and therefore when it was time to send it back.

The T & P method was more obvious. Consider this - the stamps, as far as possible, were applied in a clear area of the cover, and just about always in the upper right quadrant.

Consequently, they were easily visible in the spinner racks of the time. These racks concealed the lower portion of the comic, but left the stamped area easily available for inspection.

I would suggest, for logistical reasons, at least a 2 month gap between delivery and return. 

T & P stock sheets would have been in use at the time no doubt, but now, as I know from chatting to staff at my local Tesco, a QR code performs the same function, 

[Albert Tatlock]

37 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Good points - how would a newsagent have dealt with these three cover date consecutive issues I wonder, had he received them all as 9s?

He would have sent them back at the same time as all the other 9s, irrespective of cover date.

Unlikely that all those 3 arrived in the same shop at the same time, though.

[Get Marwood & I]

9 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

The newsagent, if the top number indicates a connection to expiry date, would not have needed to sift through cover dates, which would have contained late arrival examples out of sync calendar wise. If he was entitled to a credit on unsold items, he would have needed to know, not how long it had been since the magazine had been printed, but how long it had lain on his shelf.

Surely the habit of US retailers adding arrival dates to the cover serves the same purpose. He already had the issue date, what he needed in addition, or instead of, that, was an indication of how long the item had been in his store, and therefore when it was time to send it back.

The T & P method was more obvious. Consider this - the stamps, as far as possible, were applied in a clear area of the cover, and just about always in the upper right quadrant.

Consequently, they were easily visible in the spinner racks of the time. These racks concealed the lower portion of the comic, but left the stamped area easily available for inspection.

I would suggest, for logistical reasons, at least a 2 month gap between delivery and return. 

T & P stock sheets would have been in use at the time no doubt, but now, as I know from chatting to staff at my local Tesco, a QR code performs the same function, 

I'm warming to the idea Albert. Maybe I'm concentrating too much on cover date sequencing and the logical desire to protect that for the buyers. 

3 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

He would have sent them back at the same time as all the other 9s, irrespective of cover date.

Unlikely that all those 3 arrived in the same shop at the same time, though.

Yes, unlikely. But as I noted above, the illogicality of sending all 3 back was probably a feature of what was likely a fairly loose, haphazard design. Hence you guys lamenting the absence of issues etc back in the day.

Maybe you're right again Albert. Another pint at Rovers might be brewing.... 

[Albert Tatlock]

1 minute ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Another pint at Rovers

Just a half, please, my bladder is not what it used to be.

[Get Marwood & I]

10 hours ago, Albert Tatlock said:

Just a half, please, my bladder is not what it used to be.

I resemble that remark 

I thought about it some more last night Albert, and I'm moving into the camp that the numbers may well have been there to guide the newsagents through a returns process as you believe. I think the 'X' stamp that Mr T posted, which I'd never seen before, supports the idea that the top / numbered half of the stamp could act as a returns process indicator ('don't', in that case) and that made it more likely that the T&P numbers could play a similar role. I've had a lot of experience of operational processes in my various jobs down the years and it wouldn't be the first time that a process was in place with so many obvious flaws as the T&P one, if indeed that is what it was. 

I do on reflection think it more likely now that a newsagent would look to stamps rather than study cover dates or issue numbers. They'd just take them all off wouldn't they, with little attention to the titles themselves and whether what they were doing made sense from a readers chronological perspective. So you've convinced me, I think, Albert. 

It's quite nice to have these debates, and I enjoy the challenges and alternative viewpoints. It's easy to get tunnel vision sometimes once an notion sits in your mind and no one comments. I would love to know exactly how the process unfolded and how the 9 different stamp numbers triggered returns throughout the year. If the comics were delivered monthly, perhaps the chap that delivered them collected the returns at the same time. That would make it a monthly returns process so the nine numbers would not be tied to months and would have to roll over with two cycles crossing one year. 

I've mentioned before how I love the early 1960's period of comics and all the little nuances and quirks. Maybe this stamping process was just another one of them - a broad pattern, rife with comic chronological error, with faint / unreadable stamps making the process that much less robust (for the avid collector).

Bet it was fun though. Thanks again Albert, for the conversion. 

[Albert Tatlock]

How about this scenario....

The newsagent is aware that his new delivery of comics is due some time tomorrow, so he knows he has to get the returns ready, as the delivery driver is on a tight schedule and cannot hang about while the newsagent laboriously gathers up some stuff and counts it out.

So, when he shuts up his shop for the evening and turns his little sign round from 'OPEN' to 'CLOSED', he is free of distractions and can get on with the job.

He goes through his stock and removes all the stamped comics more than 1 or 2 months old, guided by the stamp number. He has to retain the most recent stamp, or he will, at least temporarily, have no stock in case a snotty- nosed kid comes in early next morning with his 9d.

He counts them, enters the quantity on a returns sheet, along with whatever has to go back to the same place, bundles them up ready and puts them down behind the counter.

Then he can have his Ovaltine and turn in early. Remember he has to be open by about 6am to take delivery of his daily newspapers, and return yesterday's unsold papers, a routine procedure that he performs every weekday.

Next day the delivery driver arrives, takes the returns with their associated paperwork and drops off a new bundle, with another sheet and a copy for the newsagent to sign.

Driver speeds off to his next call, and at the end of the round is back at the wholesalers. The returns are unbundled and tallied against the stock sheets, in case anyone is trying to pull a fast one.

Now all the various comics and magazines have to be separated into stacks according to where they are going back to.

Everything for T & P sits there until the next delivery, when it is returned.

New delivery from T & P - wholesaler's staff split the consignment up into bundles tailored to each of their customers' regular order amounts, they go out with the delivery driver, the whole process roll round again.

Only thing left to do now is for the T & P staff to have a laugh in their tea break about how some anoraks in the distant future will be scratching their heads over the little stamp on the comics.

[Albert Tatlock]

[Albert Tatlock]

Just uploaded rest of 1960 and 1961 B & B.

I have put a tag at the bottom so you know where each came from, which you can trim off when necessary.

The B & B 28 above is the same as 1 of the 2 partial scans I sent a couple of days ago, it is not a fresh one, please take a note so you are not adding duplicate material to the database.

[Get Marwood & I]

2 hours ago, Albert Tatlock said:

How about this scenario....

The newsagent is aware that his new delivery of comics is due some time tomorrow, so he knows he has to get the returns ready, as the delivery driver is on a tight schedule and cannot hang about while the newsagent laboriously gathers up some stuff and counts it out.

So, when he shuts up his shop for the evening and turns his little sign round from 'OPEN' to 'CLOSED', he is free of distractions and can get on with the job.

He goes through his stock and removes all the stamped comics more than 1 or 2 months old, guided by the stamp number. He has to retain the most recent stamp, or he will, at least temporarily, have no stock in case a snotty- nosed kid comes in early next morning with his 9d.

He counts them, enters the quantity on a returns sheet, along with whatever has to go back to the same place, bundles them up ready and puts them down behind the counter.

Then he can have his Ovaltine and turn in early. Remember he has to be open by about 6am to take delivery of his daily newspapers, and return yesterday's unsold papers, a routine procedure that he performs every weekday.

Next day the delivery driver arrives, takes the returns with their associated paperwork and drops off a new bundle, with another sheet and a copy for the newsagent to sign.

Driver speeds off to his next call, and at the end of the round is back at the wholesalers. The returns are unbundled and tallied against the stock sheets, in case anyone is trying to pull a fast one.

Now all the various comics and magazines have to be separated into stacks according to where they are going back to.

Everything for T & P sits there until the next delivery, when it is returned.

New delivery from T & P - wholesaler's staff split the consignment up into bundles tailored to each of their customers' regular order amounts, they go out with the delivery driver, the whole process roll round again.

Only thing left to do now is for the T & P staff to have a laugh in their tea break about how some anoraks in the distant future will be scratching their heads over the little stamp on the comics.

Be honest Albert. You used to be a newsagent didn't you.