Why Steve Ditko left Spider-man/Marvel 4 4

[jjonahjameson11]

Drama, rage, resentment...JJJ is clearly the star of this page!

[alexgross.com]

 i've often wondered, and curious what the SA folks here think: what would have been different had ditko and stan worked out their differences enough that steve had continued on spidey, as artist and either writer, or co-writer, for another several years? would spidey still have attained the massive heights of popularity that he did under lee and romita?

as an artist myself, i tend to think that the art is more important than the story, as long as the story doesn't totally stink. of course it's ideal when both are top notch. but i'm talking specifically about ditko's art. his 38 issues of spidey have a purity, a naiveté about them that was never really there with kirby or any other artist. it worked so well given the time period and the character. romita brings a mainstream slickness in 1966 that comes to define so much about marvel throughout the 70s. would ditko have gotten slicker? or would fans have started to turn off to his work (and the character) if he was still doing spidey by the time steranko and neal adams were bringing reality and highly refined draftsmanship to comics?

 love to hear your thoughts, especially if you're over 50. 

[kav]

On 8/21/2021 at 1:43 PM, alexgross.com said:

 i've often wondered, and curious what the SA folks here think: what would have been different had ditko and stan worked out their differences enough that steve had continued on spidey, as artist and either writer, or co-writer, for another several years? would spidey still have attained the massive heights of popularity that he did under lee and romita?

as an artist myself, i tend to think that the art is more important than the story, as long as the story doesn't totally stink. of course it's ideal when both are top notch. but i'm talking specifically about ditko's art. his 38 issues of spidey have a purity, a naiveté about them that was never really there with kirby or any other artist. it worked so well given the time period and the character. romita brings a mainstream slickness in 1966 that comes to define so much about marvel throughout the 70s. would ditko have gotten slicker? or would fans have started to turn off to his work (and the character) if he was still doing spidey by the time steranko and neal adams were bringing reality and highly refined draftsmanship to comics?

 love to hear your thoughts, especially if you're over 50. 

I think Romita was critical to what spider man became.  the stories became more adult themed and in the 60s plenty of adults especially college students read spider man.  where ditko's spider man was a bit goofy, Romita's was more realistic.  

[Cat]

I think it was the perfect cauldron: start with some Kirby and Ditko, season with a bit more Ditko, then add the Romita. Stand back and watch the sizzle! Mmmm-hmmmmm. 

[MattTheDuck]

As a long time fan of a band with a socially-awkward (and unhappily now-deceased) drummer, I understand Ditko's view of fans pretty well.

"I can't pretend a stranger is a long-awaited friend."

 

[shadroch]

I'm 62 and Ditko left long before I read Spidey on a regular basis. In 1973, Marvel Tales was already well past reprinting the Ditko stories so the people you would want are closer to seventy than fifty.  I don't care for Ditkos art so while I was obsessed with completing my Avengers, FF, JLA and Legion runs, I didn't bother with the early Spideys, although AF 15 was the first book I spent a hundred dollars on.

Edited August 21, 2021 by shadroch

[Larryw7]

I think Ditko would have kept the Goblins identity secret for a few more issues, but he said in interviews that he meant for Norman to be the GG, so it's a myth that he left because he and Stan didn't agree about the identity. I have to admit that I think Peter changed a little too fast after Ditko left. In #41, he's buying a motorcycle, he and Harry become best buddies and roommates too quickly, etc. I think the Romita issues hit their stride with issue 50 and the first Kingpin arc. Those books are classics. 

But then something happens which is rarely talked about. Suddenly Romita isn't penciling. Don Heck, Jim Mooney and John Buscema are doing it(no complaints about Buscema, he's just as good as Romita). I know  Romita was busy as art director, but the so called Romita era doesn't have as much Romita penciling as many people think. Also, Stan's plots were not as good as Ditko's. I'm not a fan of the Tablet story arc which went on forever..I don't think the quality was there. The book started getting better around #90, with the Doc Ock/Captain Stacy arc, and then the Goblin drug issues. I think Gerry Conway and Len Wein were much better Spidey writers than Stan without Ditko. Heterodox, but that's what I think.

Romita was the slicker, even better artist than Ditko. I love Romita's art. But Ditko was a better storyteller, and I think the book would have been better if he stayed around for at least another year, and then bring in Romita. My rambling thoughts on the issue.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Larryw7

[kav]

On 8/21/2021 at 3:11 PM, Larryw7 said:

I think Ditko would have kept the Goblins identity secret for a few more issues, but he said in interviews that he meant for Norman to be the GG, so it's a myth that he left because he and Stan didn't agree about the identity. I have to admit that I think Peter changed a little too fast after Ditko left. In #41, he's buying a motorcycle, he and Harry become best buddies and roommates too quickly, etc. I think the Romita issues hit their stride with issue 50 and the first Kingpin arc. Those books are classics. 

But then something happens which is rarely talked about. Suddenly Romita isn't penciling. Don Heck, Jim Mooney and John Buscema are doing it(no complaints about Buscema, he's just as good as Romita). I know  Romita was busy as art director, but the so called Romita era doesn't have as much Romita penciling as many people think. Also, Stan's plots were not as good as Ditko's. I'm not a fan of the Tablet story arc which went on forever..I don't think the quality was there. The book started getting better around #90, with the Doc Ock/Captain Stacy arc, and then the Goblin drug issues. I think Gerry Conway and Len Wein were much better Spidey writers than Stan without Ditko. Heterodox, but that's what I think.

Romita was the slicker, even better artist than Ditko. I love Romita's art. But Ditko was a better storyteller, and I think the book would have been better if he stayed around for at least another year, and then bring in Romita. My rambling thoughts on the issue.

To me this book is the high point of spider man.  my dad was stationed at nuclear base in minot ND and came home on leave with this issue and showed me the jameson panel-I was hooked.
 

[alexgross.com]

On 8/21/2021 at 3:01 PM, shadroch said:

I'm 62 and Ditko left long before I read Spidey on a regular basis. In 1973, Marvel Tales was already well past reprinting the Ditko stories so the people you would want are closer to seventy than fifty.  I don't care for Ditkos art so while I was obsessed with completing my Avengers, FF, JLA and Legion runs, I didn't bother with the early Spideys, although AF 15 was the first book I spent a hundred dollars on.

i mentioned being over 50 because i am 52 and really discovered spidey (and others) initially through the early trade paperbacks like 'origins of marvel comics' and also 'bring on the bad guys.' one reprints early ditko spidey, the other reprints the first romita issues. so early on i became aware of many of the early marvel artists in a way that i otherwise would not have known much about. it gave me more perspective on the history of my favorite characters than i would have otherwise had. 

but yes, at 52, i am barely old enough to have read some of the romita issues when they came out, though i did not, as i still was too young to buy comics until around 1978 or 1979, not counting some richie rich. 

[Larryw7]

On 8/21/2021 at 6:46 PM, kav said:

To me this book is the high point of spider man.  my dad was stationed at nuclear base in minot ND and came home on leave with this issue and showed me the jameson panel-I was hooked.
 

Yeah, that is an absolute classic. So were the Mysterio issues from the same time. But every GG story was great, and this one may be the best.

[kav]

On 8/21/2021 at 4:37 PM, Larryw7 said:

Yeah, that is an absolute classic. So were the Mysterio issues from the same time. But every GG story was great, and this one may be the best.

It was mind blowing for a lifelong DC reader-it was REAL.

[Dr. Love]

Sex sells, especially to young teen boys. Romita had crafted the art of drawing believable beautiful women over many long years at DC. Then he brought the bombshells to Spidey and voila.

Ditko didnt have a clue. The 40 yr old virgin x 1000. And you wonder that he was so...uhh... cranky?  

[kav]

On 8/21/2021 at 6:04 PM, Dr. Love said:

Sex sells, especially to young teen boys. Romita had crafted the art of drawing believable beautiful women over many long years at DC. Then he brought the bombshells to Spidey and voila.

Ditko didnt have a clue. The 40 yr old virgin x 1000. And you wonder that he was so...uhh... cranky?  

Ditko's liz allen for example was coyote ugly.

[Sweet Lou 14]

On 8/21/2021 at 9:04 PM, Dr. Love said:

Sex sells, especially to young teen boys. Romita had crafted the art of drawing believable beautiful women over many long years at DC. Then he brought the bombshells to Spidey and voila.

Ditko didnt have a clue. The 40 yr old virgin x 1000. And you wonder that he was so...uhh... cranky?  

This isn't the entire story, but I 100% agree that it's a big part of it.

Ditko couldn't draw a truly beautiful girl, and Kirby wasn't doing it either (though his entire body of work clearly shows he was capable of it).  Romita and Buscema truly excelled at it.  I still think Buscema's women are the greatest of the Silver / Bronze Age.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Sweet Lou 14

[alexgross.com]

On 8/21/2021 at 6:09 PM, Sweet Lou 14 said:

This isn't the entire story, but I 100% agree that it's a big part of it.

Ditko couldn't draw a truly beautiful girl, and Kirby wasn't doing it either (though his entire body of work clearly shows he was capable of it).  Romita and Buscema truly excelled at it.  I still think Buscema's women are the greatest of the Silver / Bronze Age.

shalla bal! 

[kav]

On 8/21/2021 at 6:09 PM, Sweet Lou 14 said:

This isn't the entire story, but I 100% agree that it's a big part of it.

Ditko couldn't draw a truly beautiful girl, and Kirby wasn't doing it either (though his entire body of work clearly shows he was capable of it).  Romita and Buscema truly excelled at it.  I still think Buscema's women are the greatest of the Silver / Bronze Age.

not a fan of the manly cheekbones buscema gave all his women.

[Dr Zen]

Steve Ditko's nephew was recently interviewed on the Comic Book Historian Podcast.

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/who-is-steve-ditko-with-mark-ditko-alex-grand/id1291855358?i=1000530744836

[Larryw7]

On 8/21/2021 at 9:04 PM, Dr. Love said:

Sex sells, especially to young teen boys. Romita had crafted the art of drawing believable beautiful women over many long years at DC. Then he brought the bombshells to Spidey and voila.

Ditko didnt have a clue. The 40 yr old virgin x 1000. And you wonder that he was so...uhh... cranky?  

Though even in Ditko's books, Peter was starting to attract Liz and Gwen in the later issues. And of course he had Betty. Granted they didn't look attractive (though Ditko's Gwen, a character he created, looked a little bit prettier).

No question about the women Romita drew. I was in love with Gwen when I was a kid.

And I'm sure Peter wasn't always cranky. It wasn't web fluid that Aunt May was constantly finding on Peter's sheets. 

[Ken Aldred]

Under Stan, ASM became typical Marvel super-hero soap opera.

If Ditko had continued writing, my major concern would have been whether his Objectivist philosophical views could’ve been reined in to prevent the character from becoming more extreme, veering more towards his independently-created Mr A, that is, developing a colder and ruthless personality. Stan would surely have vetoed a change in tone like that.  In his later mainstream work for DC you saw that kind of polarised, black-or-white thinking in Hawk and Dove.  Conversely, there always seemed something a bit surreal and otherworldly about his work compared to Romita’s, especially his character designs, which we saw again at DC with The Creeper, and that would’ve been great to retain.

For me, that’s the problem, would Ditko have allowed Lee to continue keeping him that grounded in various ways, creatively stifled?

Edited August 22, 2021 by Ken Aldred

[bluechip]

On 8/21/2021 at 1:43 PM, alexgross.com said:

?

as an artist myself, i tend to think that the art is more important than the story, as long as the story doesn't totally stink.

Examples disproving that are legion.  For years, DC comics' execs shook their heads unable to grasp why the Marvel comics with art they considered ugly was pulling readers away from their books, which had art they considered much better (and the vast majority of people would have agreed).  I could name a few movies wherein the DP was an absolute genius and every shot was a masterpiece of imagery but the film cannot be appreciated on any level but as a series of beautiful images.          

Edited August 23, 2021 by bluechip