What the numerical grade on a conserved label mean? 1 1

[Pantodude]

Hi folks.  Hope you can enlighten me.  CGC explains a conserved label as follows:  "This label is applied to any comic book with specific repairs done to improve the structural integrity and long-term preservation. These repairs include tear seals support, staple replacement, piece reattachment and certain kinds of cleaning."   

If the conservation consists of some bindery chip size pieces added to cover and interior with archival material, tear seals to cover and interior with archival material, and cover and interior reinforced with archival materal, I gather that all of that work only enhances structural integrity without (or at least not significantly) affecting the appearance of the book--in other words, the conserved grade is not an apparent grade but the universal grade the book would otherwise have obtained had the conservation not been performed, correct?  

Also wondering if such conservation as described above would be completely reversible without harm to the book, assuming one would ever want to undo it?  

Edited September 28, 2020 by Pantodude

[Tony S]

Might be overly parsing words here. Restored or conserved, the numeric grade represents what the book would otherwise grade if not restored or conserved. Qualified grade  is what the book would otherwise grade except for the one defect (say a signature or cover detached at one staple) that is being ignored. And tear seals and pieces added to a comic book most certainly enhances the books appearance. 

Your second question is more straightforward. If the work is professionally done, it should be reversible. But what you describe is a fair amount of work. If both the cover and interior are reinforced, it's extremely likely once the reinforcement was removed you would have a book that the cover was detached - and perhaps some loose interior pages as well. 

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Tony S

[Pantodude]

15 hours ago, Tony S said:

Might be overly parsing words here. Restored or conserved, the numeric grade represents what the book would otherwise grade if not restored or conserved. Qualified grade  is what the book would otherwise grade except for the one defect (say a signature or cover detached at one staple) that is being ignored. And tear seals and pieces added to a comic book most certainly enhances the books appearance. 

Your second question is more straightforward. If the work is professionally done, it should be reversible. But what you describe is a fair amount of work. If both the cover and interior are reinforced, it's extremely likely once the reinforcement was removed you would have a book that the cover was detached - and perhaps some loose interior pages as well. 

 

Thank you.  So, to make sure I understand, if the book looks like a 6.0 but has a conserved label grade of 4.5, then 4.5 is the presumptive pre-conservation grade or the presumptive post-removal-of-conservation grade?   Is there a difference?   I am grappling with what you said, the possibility that "once the reinforcement was removed you would have a book that the cover was detached - and perhaps some loose interior pages as well" -- should one expect that such a conserved 4.5 book receive a universal grade of 4.5 after the conservation is undone, i.e., the 4.5 already accounts for all of that? 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Pantodude

[The Lions Den]

18 minutes ago, Pantodude said:

Thank you.  So, to make sure I understand, if the book looks like a 6.0 but has a conserved label grade of 4.5, then 4.5 is the presumptive pre-conservation grade or the presumptive post-removal-of-conservation grade?   Is there a difference?   I am grappling with what you said, the possibility that "once the reinforcement was removed you would have a book that the cover was detached - and perhaps some loose interior pages as well" -- should one expect that such a conserved 4.5 book receive a universal grade of 4.5 after the conservation is undone, i.e., the 4.5 already accounts for all of that? 

   

[theCapraAegagrus]

Y-yes...?

[Pantodude]

4 hours ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Y-yes...?

Hey!   Are you suggesting I had a brain fart?    Maybe I did, but I'm a noob in this area.  Plain english sometimes isn't  plain enough.  Thanks to you and Tony for input.  

Edited September 29, 2020 by Pantodude

[William-James88]

On 9/28/2020 at 2:31 PM, Pantodude said:

Thank you.  So, to make sure I understand, if the book looks like a 6.0 but has a conserved label grade of 4.5, then 4.5 is the presumptive pre-conservation grade or the presumptive post-removal-of-conservation grade?   Is there a difference?   I am grappling with what you said, the possibility that "once the reinforcement was removed you would have a book that the cover was detached - and perhaps some loose interior pages as well" -- should one expect that such a conserved 4.5 book receive a universal grade of 4.5 after the conservation is undone, i.e., the 4.5 already accounts for all of that? 

Not at all. If the book looks like a 6.0 and is conserved, then it will get a 6.0 conserved. 

If it has a 4.5 and is conserved,, then that's because it looks like a 4.5

The grade will always be lower if you choose to get a blue label instead since it will consider all the flaws (like glue on cover, sealed tears), not just what the book looks like.

[theCapraAegagrus]

15 hours ago, Pantodude said:

Hey!   Are you suggesting I had a brain fart?    Maybe I did, but I'm a noob in this area.  Plain english sometimes isn't  plain enough.  Thanks to you and Tony for input.  

TBH your question was posed in a confusing manner. The actual answer is: No.

I must have misread your question as; "The grade would be the same in Universal as if nothing special was performed?" The grade is just the grade as-is, though. Conservation simply consists of techniques that aren't restorative. The methods simply intend to conserve current/best condition.

Hope that's more helpful lol.

[The Lions Den]

On 9/29/2020 at 3:07 PM, Pantodude said:

Hey!   Are you suggesting I had a brain fart?    Maybe I did, but I'm a noob in this area.  Plain english sometimes isn't  plain enough.  Thanks to you and Tony for input.  

The numerical grade of any book is based on the flaws and general condition of the book. The numerical Conserved grade doesn't take into account what the book would look like if the conservation were removed. It's basically just telling you what work was done to the book and that the work met the criteria described in the Conserved label guidelines, which are available on this site.  

I hope this helps...  

Edited September 30, 2020 by The Lions Den

[Pantodude]

So you three guys who responded most recently are basically saying that Tony S was WRONG when he wrote, "Restored or conserved, the numeric grade represents what the book would otherwise grade if not restored or conserved."     So I must ask:  WHO is right?   Do i go with the majority?  

Edited October 1, 2020 by Pantodude

[William-James88]

38 minutes ago, Pantodude said:

So you three guys who responded most recently are basically saying that Tony S was WRONG when he wrote, "Restored or conserved, the numeric grade represents what the book would otherwise grade if not restored or conserved."     So I must ask:  WHO is right?   Do i go with the majority?  

It's no majority or minority, it's just fact vs fiction.

Let's try this again, just give me a legitimate example (like copy an image of a slabbed book from the internet) and ask me the exact question you want the answer to using that example, and it will be answered.

[Pantodude]

Okay!   How about this (not exactly what I hypothesized above, but close):

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by Pantodude

[William-James88]

11 hours ago, Pantodude said:

Okay!   How about this (not exactly what I hypothesized above, but close):

 

 

 

Ok, so as you see there, it is a 4.5 CONSERVED. What that means is this is the highest grade it could ever get, ignoring the flaws that would make it go lower. You can see that list of flaws in the "conservation includes" section. For instance, it does not count the tears found on the comic that have been sealed.

That 4.5 is not the grade it would get if you counted the flaws like the tears, and thus won't be worth as much as a 4.5 in a blue label (pictured below)

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by William-James88

[theCapraAegagrus]

8 hours ago, Pantodude said:

So you three guys who responded most recently are basically saying that Tony S was WRONG when he wrote, "Restored or conserved, the numeric grade represents what the book would otherwise grade if not restored or conserved."     So I must ask:  WHO is right?   Do i go with the majority?  

Yes, he is incorrect.

Let's pretend you have a Universal comic that would grade 3.5 with no work done. Now, let's say you had a professional use conservation to seal tears, etc. It would no longer be a 3.5 - let's pretend it grades 4.5 after the work is done.

The same goes for restoration. You could take an 8.0 Universal up to a 9.4 Restored if you just needed color touch to fill in ink rub, color loss, etc. The grade is as the comic currently is. If you remove conservation and/or restoration, the grade will certainly be lower.

I think Tony S is confusing this situation with the general difference between Universal and Qualified. Qualified exists to tell the consumer, "what this book looks like without this particular large flaw that does not effect story".

[The Lions Den]

As the saying used to go: "Just grade the book the way you normally would and don't worry about anything else." 

 

[Randall Dowling]

I just want to clarify something from the OP.  The number on the slab of any restored or conserved book has always represented what's referred to as the "Apparent" grade.  It's supposed to represent what grade the book appears to be in.  The presence and extent of work done to the book is noted as a qualifier to that apparent grade.  

To be as clear as possible, a blue label 4.5 and a conserved 4.5 should both appear to be in the same condition.  One just has qualifiers to that condition.

[The Lions Den]

15 hours ago, Pantodude said:

So you three guys who responded most recently are basically saying that Tony S was WRONG when he wrote, "Restored or conserved, the numeric grade represents what the book would otherwise grade if not restored or conserved."     So I must ask:  WHO is right?   Do i go with the majority?  

First, let me say that Tony is one of the most knowledgeable members here and I highly respect his opinion. And to be honest, I don't think his answer is wrong, I think he's just saying the same thing in a different way. 

Moreover, grading a restored or conserved comic is often more difficult than grading an unrestored book, because sometimes the work that was done actually affects the overall appearance of the book. And as a grader, it's hard to overlook things that diminish eye appeal. You may think it doesn't make much difference, but in my experience restored books can be a real pain in the (you can guess the rest, can't you?) 

[Pantodude]

13 hours ago, William-James88 said:

Ok, so as you see there, it is a 4.5 CONSERVED. What that means is this is the highest grade it could ever get, ignoring the flaws that would make it go lower. You can see that list of flaws in the "conservation includes" section. For instance, it does not count the tears found on the comic that have been sealed.

That 4.5 is not the grade it would get if you counted the flaws like the tears, and thus won't be worth as much as a 4.5 in a blue label (pictured below)

 

 

 

Thanks guys.   So in a conserved grade, sealed tears do not lower the grade noted on the label due to their being tears.  Instead, sealed tears aftect the conserved grade only to the extent that they remain visible (in which case they are treated like a stray pen mark that outlines the tear)?   

[William-James88]

39 minutes ago, Pantodude said:

Thanks guys.   So in a conserved grade, sealed tears do not lower the grade noted on the label due to their being tears.  Instead, sealed tears aftect the conserved grade only to the extent that they remain visible (in which case they are treated like a stray pen mark that outlines the tear)?   

Yeah something like that.  Or simply not counted at all if it looks like there is no tear anymore.

[Tony S]

On 9/30/2020 at 8:04 PM, Pantodude said:

So you three guys who responded most recently are basically saying that Tony S was WRONG when he wrote, "Restored or conserved, the numeric grade represents what the book would otherwise grade if not restored or conserved."     So I must ask:  WHO is right?   Do i go with the majority?  

I'm not saying it clearly or you misunderstand. Think of the numeric grade being the appearance of the book. Universal, conserved, restored, qualified.  If the book has had some conservation work done - and LOOKS like a 6.0 - it gets a conserved label 6.0.  If a book has not had anything done to it and looks like a 6.0, it gets a 6.0. If the book looks like a 6.0 and has had restoration work done - it gets a Restored label 6.0. (CGC also "grades" the quality and extent of restoration. A B C and 1 2 3)