I Don't Want Old Grails
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135 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Prince Namor said:

I would never consider myself one to defend Todd's writing skills, and I do realize... that when content is reviewed by those with a limited capacity for understanding story elements OR who just have a limited exposure to story elements (i.e. growing up on video games, YouTube, social media, Ritalin use, etc.) they may just miss this but...

Al Simmons (was that his name? I'm going by memory here) was in real love with his wife. She and his daughter (?) were everything to him and... whereas being Spawn with all of that 'kewl' stuff is certainly appealing to the average teen who plays video games 20 hours a day - in a STORYTELLING sense, that gets old pretty quick, so... it helps to have an angle for the character that makes...

Oh, Nevermind.

What makes me cringe is Todd’s take on Wendigo in his Spider-Man run.  Truly idiotic :facepalm: 

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1 hour ago, Prince Namor said:

I can only imagine. I had a lot less to look at in the mid-70's, but it still made me drool.

Now and then, I still go to the Newsstand at Mike's Amazing World of Comics to revisit the Bronze Age years and recall the comics I bought new as a kid. 

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28 minutes ago, Ken Aldred said:

Now and then, I still go to the Newsstand at Mike's Amazing World of Comics to revisit the Bronze Age years and recall the comics I bought new as a kid. 

Yes! And I still recognize books that saw on the spinner rack in the 70’s and agonized over as I tried to decide on my final single-book purchase. Almost 50 years later and I’m still second-guessing myself.

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2 hours ago, Randall Ries said:

There was never a whinier undead "haint" than Spawn.

I agree. I've never been a fan of Spawn. I can stand the early McFarlane stuff, just because I think is art is at least interesting but after that I just have no interest.

I remember finding and selling a handful of issues in the early to mid 200's for a decent amount of money, around $15-20 a pop, supposedly because they are "low print" run books. I was pretty surprised at the going rate of these books considering the inside art was pretty terrible and Spawn wasn't even in a lot of the stories. But I was happy to sell, cuz I sure didn't want 'em. No wonder they were "low print run" books. lol 

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On 1/8/2021 at 12:39 PM, D2 said:

I'm sure this is going to stir up some buzz, as I understand there is a definitive line between old collectors, that focus on Golden and Silver Age books, and Modern Age readers/collectors.... let's leave the speculators out of this, if at all possible...

 

Because this is a topic I'm curious about, which is based on the essential collecting, not the speculation market. 

 

I say this ahead of time, because I know, from a 'collecting', 'financial' perspective, these books are going up in value...  BUT

 

I don't like old grails. I don't want them. I'm 40 and clearly, doing the math, did not grow up reading books from the 70s and earlier. I got into reading books in the 90s... and yes, books that I read back then hold a special place in my heart. I appreciate and understand nostalgia very well.

I guess my point is, specifically to, Hulk 181 let's say... I've read that issue, it's awful. The art is awful, the story is awful, the book is awful. I have absolutely zero interest in having it in my collection. Bragging rights, as it were, doesn't entice me as much as it does the price tag it demands just to own it. To say I own the '1st appearance of...' does not hold value to me anymore. That is my speculator talking.

 

From a reader and true collector point of view... I struggle with old books, because reading them now is very difficult. This holds true for almost all books I grew up with as well. I own zero books from my old reading days, the 90s. I've reread them. They are awful. Now this isn't true for all old books. I believe that DKR is still a masterpiece for instance. I still thoroughly enjoy reading Days of Future Past. I'm not saying all old books are garbage, but I have a hard time appreciating anything now that doesn't hold the test of time.

Just to be clear, I also think most new books are garbage too lol. Just leveling the playing field.

Anyway, am I really the only one that feels this way? It seems so... but I don't know... just curious really.

It sounds as if you don't really like comics in general 

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29 minutes ago, HuddyBee said:

I agree. I've never been a fan of Spawn. I can stand the early McFarlane stuff, just because I think is art is at least interesting but after that I just have no interest.

I remember finding and selling a handful of issues in the early to mid 200's for a decent amount of money, around $15-20 a pop, supposedly because they are "low print" run books. I was pretty surprised at the going rate of these books considering the inside art was pretty terrible and Spawn wasn't even in a lot of the stories. But I was happy to sell, cuz I sure didn't want 'em. No wonder they were "low print run" books. lol 

That's all I was trying to say. I know McFarlane deserves his place in comic book loredom, but I was pushing forty if not past forty when I finally settled into watching the movie "Spawn". See what the big deal was about. Al Simmons the hired CIA killer with the heart of gold? Yehsherokalright.

As well, I was too old to appreciate the "new" comic book writing style. Or maybe I was old enough to know the difference between good and bad writing. As I began collecting again (Quit in 1986 after "Crisis On Infinite Earths" because I resented having to buy titles I wasn't into to follow the entire story line. Plus, I wanted to finish the Moore Swamp Thing run), I would try to read some of the older raw books from when I was a kid. Huh. The stories don't hold up very well, do they? Robin saying things like "Let's Rap" and "Right On" and "I can really 'dig' that". Bad example as I hated Robin stories when I was a kid, too. Haha! Remember the Superman story when Morgan Edge assigned Clark Kent to cover a "Woodstock" type music festival and the fans became hypnotized? God. I was about 10 years old when I read that and can still more or less Verbatim recite it:

Rocker from Stage: "Can you digga that rock?"

Crowd "YEEESSS!"

Rocker from stage: "Then DIGGA THAT ROCK! DIGGA WITH YOUR HANDS! DIGGA WITH YOUR FEET!"

Then the crowd goes bananas. Starts digging in the sand: "DIGGADIGGADIGGADIGGADIGGADIGGA..."

Meanwhile, Clark is sorta peakin' "WTFRIGGETTYFRACK?"

Even the main stories were seemingly immature. SOME held up well! I still LOVE the entire Ra's Al Ghul introduction story line. I still love the Bob Haney-Jim Aparo Brave and the Bold stories. I just didn't know what drivel was back when I was a kid. I SHOULD have. Back then, we read classics like "Treasure Island", "The Sea Wolf" and "Pitcairn's Island". And "Shane". And "The Incredible Hulk". We ate up everything we could read. I guess we all grow up. A cool scene in a movie I love called "Fandango" shows one of the characters constantly reading. He's the brute of the group. In one scene, he's reading "Steppenwolf", the next an issue of "The Incredible Hulk". Always loved that movie just for that alone, among other elements.

But watching "Spawn" and listen to his constant WHINING and COMPLAINING. It was just a little too heavy handed and on-the-nose. Too obvious. At least Frank Miller gave us some breathing room in "Batman: The Dark Knight Returns" and let us roll with it. Let us think for ourselves. There was NO ROOM in "DKR" for self pity and Faustian carrying on. That came out right around the time I "bagged" collecting comic books. (See what I did?) Later, in whatever year it was, my wife bought me "Batman: The Dark Knight Strikes Again". I read the whole thing after I got home from a Buddy Guy concert. At 2am. Sweet.I hope this is a good follow up but nooooo....

It came off as contemptuous toward a character he helped redefine. Like some actors become when they forget which side the butter is on and start sneering at their fans and interviewers for loving an original idea and wonderful character they fell in adoration with. AND the actor got filthy rich playing. Then "Dark Knight III" A little better. Not much, though. Strayed from the original premise a lot. The original premise a lot of us really liked. Those issues by themselves are plentiful and inexpensive. However, collecting them all signed by the creative team (x4 or x5 signed) and they suddenly become a decent collectible to have. Just for the covers. Has it ALWAYS been like that? Awesome cover! Draw the suckers in! They're just KIDS! AW! The story BITES! Who drew the interior? The guy from "My Left Foot?" Ick. Hey! Let's have a contest and sucker the kids to submit their own ideas for characters, choose one and not pay them a dime when the character makes BILLIONS! (Wolverine)

ANYHOO. Long story short, I find myself collecting comics from my youth (Normal) but just for the covers. That's about it. Bat 227. Great, classic cover, meh story, meh interior art. The Anorexic Batman. Bat 232, 234,237, 242-245. Great Adams c/a and O'Neil story. Still holds up. Bat 251. Great c/a. Fair story in that it's the first time Joker murders since 1942. Ending a massive let down. Really? Slip on oil? Get punched in the face? Back to Arkham? And how did Joker get that shark in that giant vat of water?

Wh-wh-WHAAA? SPEEDY IS A JUNKIE! AWWW-SIIIIIMMM!!! Now I wanna be a junkie, too!

My favorite cover is still Bat 244. It reminds me of when I was young, light as a feather, healthy and happy. Learning to draw. Learning to discern between good and so-so writing. All the covers I collect. Almost everything is available online to read so I'm not going to "crack them out" just because "I wanna". Maybe my kids will like them. Or my wife can sell them when I die. They tell me if I remain "young at heart", I'll always be Peter Pan.

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6 minutes ago, HuddyBee said:

One of my favorites as well, with a great story and fight scene on top!

Isn't it wonderful? I notice Adams goes back to that from time to time. Batman with a cutlass. Batman returned to a cutlass in the "Hush" story line, too. Then in #244, the next to the last panel: "RA'S!" Even scared ME when I was reading it!  "WHUH-OH! Ra's Al Ghul is going to get his nose powdered!"

What I thought was equally cool was Bats wearing a parka and hiking gear over his costume. That's the first time I saw Batman like that. They used it in Batman v Superman. The idea, anyway.

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7 hours ago, THE_BEYONDER said:

What makes me cringe is Todd’s take on Wendigo in his Spider-Man run.  Truly idiotic :facepalm: 

Wendigo and Sabretooth were my two favorite villains as a kid.  One was a man-eater and the other was a cold blooded murderer capable of other ghastly deeds as well.  The stories they were involved in gave the heroes a genuine evil they had to battle.  Both were absolutely ruined for me around the same time-  Wendigo with that "Perceptions" storyline and then Sabretooth around Wolverine 50 or so.

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3 minutes ago, Von Cichlid said:

Wendigo and Sabretooth were my two favorite villains as a kid.  One was a man-eater and the other was a cold blooded murderer capable of other ghastly deeds as well.  The stories they were involved in gave the heroes a genuine evil they had to battle.  Both were absolutely ruined for me around the same time-  Wendigo with that "Perceptions" storyline and then Sabretooth around Wolverine 50 or so.

Perceptions

 

That was it :facepalm:

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55 minutes ago, E5150 said:

Yeah, whatever happened to the Spawn countdown clock? Halfway through he didn't know what to do so it just disappeared one issue lol

This is when I quit, I think, though honestly I never loved the series and I'm not sure why I bought it that long. But around #43, all of a sudden there's a whole issue where Spawn just walks into the woods and eats some small animals and it resets his countdown timer. Completely invalidating the whole concept, and one of the core concepts of the character. I immediately dropped the book. So bad.

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On 1/8/2021 at 6:11 PM, Angel of Death said:
  • Doesn't like old books.
  • Doesn't like the 90's books that they grew up on.
  • New books are "garbage".

Anyone else confused?

Yes.

I'm wondering why he even bothers collecting them in the first place.

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Just now, G G ® said:

Yes.

I'm wondering why he even bothers collecting them in the first place.

s-l300.jpg

Spoiler

Personally, I think that all ages have something to offer. I can enjoy, and learn a lot from, Gold/Silver/Bronze art. I'm not a writer, and while writing is certainly important to enjoy a run, I've always been a fan of the art/style first. I wanted to be a comic book/manga artist in high school.

 

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Just now, Angel of Death said:

s-l300.jpg

  Reveal hidden contents

Personally, I think that all ages have something to offer. I can enjoy, and learn a lot from, Gold/Silver/Bronze art. I'm not a writer, and while writing is certainly important to enjoy a run, I've always been a fan of the art/style first. I wanted to be a comic book/manga artist in high school.

 

Ah Nessie...:cloud9:

I used a million of my Nessie dollars to acquire the Brooklyn Bridge.

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22 hours ago, HuddyBee said:
22 hours ago, Randall Ries said:

My favorite cover is still Bat 244.

One of my favorites as well, with a great story and fight scene on top!

Tell the truth... it's the idea of buy-one-get-one-free Batpants, isn't it?

Batman #244 DC Comics 1972 Ra's Al Ghul, Neal Adams art | eBay

Edited by valiantman
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1 minute ago, THE_BEYONDER said:
16 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Tell the truth... it's the idea of buy-one-get-one-free Batpants, isn't it?

Batman #244 DC Comics 1972 Ra's Al Ghul, Neal Adams art | eBay

Expand  

He doesn’t actually have pants on.  :gossip:

OK, you can imagine either of those dudes on the cover are pantsless, not that there's anything wrong with that.

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1 minute ago, valiantman said:

OK, you can imagine either of those dudes on the cover are pantsless, not that there's anything wrong with that.

Neal explained the appearance of 2 pairs of pants on this cover during his brief membership here. 

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4 minutes ago, THE_BEYONDER said:

Neal explained the appearance of 2 pairs of pants on this cover during his brief membership here. 

I remember... yet, there they both be.

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