3rd time's the charm? Avengers 4 CGC 7.5: Improper encapsulation, damage by CGC & what to do next? - Updated Conclusion 0

[Phill the Governor]

Hey everyone,

I have a copy of Avengers 4 that was given to my by my father. He purchased the book over 25 years ago, and it's been sitting in a box in my room for the last few years.

Recently I decided to have it graded, mainly to make sure it was unrestored- but also to be able to display it more easily...

 

I've had an Elite membership for a little over two years, and submit orders fairly regularly. Maybe 100 books or so in total to date. Anyways... the the Avengers 4 was submitted and was received back at a the beginning of this month with another book. When I took the books out of the box, my jaw was on the floor. The other book was fine, but the bottom inner well on the Avengers 4 was not sealed, prompting the book to shift down in the case. It is best seen in the 4th photo. I also have a photo of the book before grading that shows some little dot on the second "A" in Captain that, prior to grading, was not there:

\

 

I have never seen a book in a case like this, especially a high dollar book. I immediately called CGC, was sent a pre-paid label to have the book re-encapsulated. 

 

 

So fast forward to a few days ago when the book was received back after almost two more weeks of waiting. There is now a tear/crease on the right side of the front cover, and a piece plastic stuck inside the case on the back cover. Unfortunately I am not surprised by this lack of quality control, and yet this is still very alarming. I recently saw a post where someone had a similar problem with a Giant Sized X-Men 1, which appeared to be damaged by CGC 3 times in a row during encapsulation. I am very worried that this will happen again with my book. The dot on the second "A" in Captain America is also still there.

Any ideas what I should do? At the very least I'd like to be reimbursed for the grading fees on this book. But I also don't want my comic damaged anymore. It's been fine up until every time CGC has handled the book.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Phill the Governor

[The Lions Den]

It appears that the tear/chip may have been from when the book was originally trimmed at the factory and during the encapsulation process it was made more visible than before. I say this because it looks like it may have been caused by a dull paper cutter. In any event, it appears to have been been folded upward and I understand your concern---it should be folded back down and then carefully encapsulated in a new well. The piece of plastic is a common problem with encapsulated books and also should have been caught during the final inspection. Not a huge deal, but I understand your position. Personally, I think you have the right to have the book fixed again for no charge, but that depends on your willingness to go through the same process again. 

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by The Lions Den

[Randall Ries]

1 hour ago, The Lions Den said:

It appears that the tear/chip may have been from when the book was originally trimmed at the factory and during the encapsulation process it was made more visible than before.

 

I don't see any evidence of that in the first photos.

I'd be really hostile by now. I'm sorry it happened to that fine book not once but twice. POC books seem to make it through ok but expensive rare books get hit. I wonder by sending it back and getting it fixed you lose a point on the grade because now it has a small tear in the cover that wasn't there before and is CGC's fault. CGC needs to start sucking it up and do more than just send free shipping labels.

I think I would look into insuring my raw books and taking copious photos as proof that this is indeed my book. I'm sending it in this condition. If CGC botches it, they either pay or my insurance policy does.

[The Lions Den]

It's very common for Silver Age Marvels to have minor tears on the edges of the cover that are on that same angle (especially on the right edge of the cover). And I've seen the exact same thing happen before---a small piece of the cover is inadvertently folded back when the book is placed in the inner well.

It is likely the tear became more pronounced when the paper was folded back. Unfortunately, it should have been caught in QC but wasn't. I still maintain that this can be fixed relatively easily and I would recommend that you contact CGC as soon as possible...

[Albert Thurgood]

I agree with @Randall Ries that I can't see that tear in the earlier photo. Does @Phill the Governorhave a close-up of this before sending to CGC (either first or second times)?

If the tear was not there when it came back the second time, then CGC gave the book the same grade both pre- and post-tear, or they tore it after grading and before slabbing again.

[The Lions Den]

34 minutes ago, Albert Thurgood said:

I agree with @Randall Ries that I can't see that tear in the earlier photo. Does @Phill the Governorhave a close-up of this before sending to CGC (either first or second times)?

If the tear was not there when it came back the second time, then CGC gave the book the same grade both pre- and post-tear, or they tore it after grading and before slabbing again.

I certainly have sympathy for Phill and I hope this gets resolved in a fair and timely manner. I wish him the best of luck in this unfortunate situation...

[Phill the Governor]

5 hours ago, The Lions Den said:

It's very common for Silver Age Marvels to have minor tears on the edges of the cover that are on that same angle (especially on the right edge of the cover).

Yes, Marvel chipping. Unfortunately, what we would call the above is "at best" minor chipping that has been exaggerated/ torn further/ damaged from mishandling. 

3 hours ago, Albert Thurgood said:

I agree with @Randall Ries that I can't see that tear in the earlier photo. Does @Phill the Governorhave a close-up of this before sending to CGC (either first or second times)?

If the tear was not there when it came back the second time, then CGC gave the book the same grade both pre- and post-tear, or they tore it after grading and before slabbing again.

I have several photos of the book the first time it was slabbed. In order to have the book re-encapsulated obviously I did not break the book out of the the slab the first time. So the condition of the book at the point should be reflective. As you can see the edge looks fine the first time around. And you can tell it was already in CGC's possession for the first encapsulation because the book is shifted down in the well. Even if there is a small amount of marvel chipping - is it not obvious that damage was done by CGC? Is this not damage? Otherwise, what's the point of grading in the first place if every arbitrary defect makes no difference. What's eye appeal??

 

In all seriousness - for those who haven't chimed in, is this an over-reaction? Do other people pay over $100 for grading fees on a several thousand dollar book, have it come back like this and are fine with it?

 

[joeypost]

Before getting the torches and pitchforks ready wait and see what CGC’s reply is. 
 

Based on what I can see, everything that happened to the book can be undone. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

I suspect that CGC will make this right. Mistakes happen, but their customer service is almost always able to make up for them.

[Randall Ries]

59 minutes ago, joeypost said:

Before getting the torches and pitchforks ready wait and see what CGC’s reply is. 
 

Based on what I can see, everything that happened to the book can be undone. 

That is incorrect. That tear cannot be undone. Not without repair and getting purple. The tear is white and not tan indicating unexposed paper has been exposed. The before and after photos tell the tale.

[Randall Ries]

54 minutes ago, Angel of Death said:

I suspect that CGC will make this right. Mistakes happen, but their customer service is almost always able to make up for them.

How will CGC customer service "make up" for losing a full point in blue grade, maybe more or worse yet, the owner getting a PLOD if he decides for repair? Buy him some Arby's? That's a 7.5 Avengers 4. What is that? A $5-$6k book? If all of this looks like what it is, the owner sent back the book to be properly reholdered. CGC gave it to the same grader who muffed it in the first place, told them, "make this right, you! Slop job!" then it comes back with a rip in the cover and plastic bits flying around inside the holder?

No. No, I would be smoking hot if CGC said ANYTHING other than "We are sending you a full refund + $6k so you can buy another book. We sincerely apologize and the grader who handled your book is no longer employed with us." Seriously. What else IS there to say? "We are sorry, but when you send us your valuable books, there is no guarantee we won't treat them like fly swatters and if your book is damaged, then tough toenails. Liability insurance is expensive and we don't want to pay for it." NOT something I would be prepared to hear.

The CGC apologists must have a LOT of money if they are always willing to take CGC's word that "Sorry. Isn't our problem." Oh well! I'll just go buy another Avengers 4. On the bell curve of a collectibles bubble.

This does give me pause for consideration, though. If I ever decide to get books graded, I will make sure they are insured and make certain the insurance covers damages while in transit, at the graders then in transit again. I am so sorry for what happened to that book. It's a beauty. One I would like to own but one I don't have the scratch to spare to buy.

[theCapraAegagrus]

9 minutes ago, Randall Ries said:

How will CGC customer service "make up" for losing a full point in blue grade, maybe more or worse yet, the owner getting a PLOD if he decides for repair? Buy him some Arby's? That's a 7.5 Avengers 4. What is that? A $5-$6k book? If all of this looks like what it is, the owner sent back the book to be properly reholdered. CGC gave it to the same grader who muffed it in the first place, told them, "make this right, you! Slop job!" then it comes back with a rip in the cover and plastic bits flying around inside the holder?

No. No, I would be smoking hot if CGC said ANYTHING other than "We are sending you a full refund + $6k so you can buy another book. We sincerely apologize and the grader who handled your book is no longer employed with us." Seriously. What else IS there to say? "We are sorry, but when you send us your valuable books, there is no guarantee we won't treat them like fly swatters and if your book is damaged, then tough toenails. Liability insurance is expensive and we don't want to pay for it." NOT something I would be prepared to hear.

The CGC apologists must have a LOT of money if they are always willing to take CGC's word that "Sorry. Isn't our problem." Oh well! I'll just go buy another Avengers 4. On the bell curve of a collectibles bubble.

This does give me pause for consideration, though. If I ever decide to get books graded, I will make sure they are insured and make certain the insurance covers damages while in transit, at the graders then in transit again. I am so sorry for what happened to that book. It's a beauty. One I would like to own but one I don't have the scratch to spare to buy.

I don't work for CGC, so I cannot answer your question(s). All I know is that in most cases the customer is made whole.

[Galen130]

On 3/21/2021 at 7:05 AM, Phill the Governor said:

Hey everyone,

I have a copy of Avengers 4 that was given to my by my father. He purchased the book over 25 years ago, and it's been sitting in a box in my room for the last few years.

Recently I decided to have it graded, mainly to make sure it was unrestored- but also to be able to display it more easily...

 

I've had an Elite membership for a little over two years, and submit orders fairly regularly. Maybe 100 books or so in total to date. Anyways... the the Avengers 4 was submitted and was received back at a the beginning of this month with another book. When I took the books out of the box, my jaw was on the floor. The other book was fine, but the bottom inner well on the Avengers 4 was not sealed, prompting the book to shift down in the case. It is best seen in the 4th photo. I also have a photo of the book before grading that shows some little dot on the second "A" in Captain that, prior to grading, was not there:

\

 

I have never seen a book in a case like this, especially a high dollar book. I immediately called CGC, was sent a pre-paid label to have the book re-encapsulated. 

 

 

So fast forward to a few days ago when the book was received back after almost two more weeks of waiting. There is now a tear/crease on the right side of the front cover, and a piece plastic stuck inside the case on the back cover. Unfortunately I am not surprised by this lack of quality control, and yet this is still very alarming. I recently saw a post where someone had a similar problem with a Giant Sized X-Men 1, which appeared to be damaged by CGC 3 times in a row during encapsulation. I am very worried that this will happen again with my book. The dot on the second "A" in Captain America is also still there.

Any ideas what I should do? At the very least I'd like to be reimbursed for the grading fees on this book. But I also don't want my comic damaged anymore. It's been fine up until every time CGC has handled the book.

 

[Phill the Governor]

1 hour ago, joeypost said:

Before getting the torches and pitchforks ready wait and see what CGC’s reply is. 
 

Based on what I can see, everything that happened to the book can be undone. 

I do consider you an authority on grade, for obvious reasons. Do you say this because on a technical level "even if they didn't cause the tear/crease" the damage is considered a manufacturing defect and won't affect grade?

Regardless of this, new damage, regardless of the extent or how it is graded on a technical level, is surely unacceptable. Especially since the book was 1-day express mailed to CGC and then back to me, at their request, under the pretense of being properly encapsulated because of an initial lack of quality control. Clearly whoever encapsulated the book either 1. didn't follow up quality control check or 2. did and is either blind or apathetic. Since there is presumably a record in their system of who it was that did the work, that person needs to be talked to.

 

My biggest concern is that considering this track record, I have literally no reassurance that my book won't be damaged again. Which is why I was seriously asking if it's best to just cut my losses and accept it as is.

[joeypost]

2 hours ago, Phill the Governor said:

I do consider you an authority on grade, for obvious reasons. Do you say this because on a technical level "even if they didn't cause the tear/crease" the damage is considered a manufacturing defect and won't affect grade?

Regardless of this, new damage, regardless of the extent or how it is graded on a technical level, is surely unacceptable. Especially since the book was 1-day express mailed to CGC and then back to me, at their request, under the pretense of being properly encapsulated because of an initial lack of quality control. Clearly whoever encapsulated the book either 1. didn't follow up quality control check or 2. did and is either blind or apathetic. Since there is presumably a record in their system of who it was that did the work, that person needs to be talked to.

 

My biggest concern is that considering this track record, I have literally no reassurance that my book won't be damaged again. Which is why I was seriously asking if it's best to just cut my losses and accept it as is.

I understand the once bitten, twice shy approach to sending the book back in. Given the exposure the book already has, any organization would have to be completely inept for this to happen again. 

Edited March 22, 2021 by joeypost

[joeypost]

2 hours ago, Randall Ries said:

That is incorrect. That tear cannot be undone. Not without repair and getting purple. The tear is white and not tan indicating unexposed paper has been exposed. The before and after photos tell the tale.

Based on real life experience, I am going to disagree with you. While it may be a fresh tear (which might be a major issue with a 9.8 modern) it can be folded back over and the rest of the book pressed which should keep it at the 7.5 grade. 

[Randall Ries]

1 hour ago, joeypost said:

Based on real life experience, I am going to disagree with you. While it may be a fresh tear (which might be a major issue with a 9.8 modern) it can be folded back over and the rest of the book pressed which should keep it at the 7.5 grade. 

I am sure you are correct. But that's an Avengers #4. In mid high grade. Not some overpriced 9.8 modern. It's easy to say when the book doesn't belong to us. As an owner, I would know that it was there. And I would know how it got there. I bring my car to get detailed and someone takes it out for lunch without permission from the owner then bangs it up and then I'm told "Yes. We will bring it to a body shop and have it repaired", I am going to know that my 1968 Camaro, which was nearly perfect, now has Bondo under the paint.

In this case, it isn't just once, but twice. Each time worse than the last. Pressing a tear isn't fixing the tear. It's hiding it. Maybe hiding it from some poor unfortunate who will never know. Or will if they crack the book out and see the tear.

But that's just me. As I have mentioned many times, it isn't always about the money. It's about the book. The OP may be satisfied with that and sell the book and buy another that hasn't been mishandled by alleged professionals.

[Randall Ries]

4 hours ago, Angel of Death said:

I don't work for CGC, so I cannot answer your question(s). All I know is that in most cases the customer is made whole.

That will be a tall order in this case. Maybe the OP WILL be satisfied with a press. or maybe that's all CGC will offer. IF that. What I know for sure is that someone at CGC was careless and ruined the integrity of my Avengers #4 that I entrusted to them to simply evaluate, grade and then put in a simple holder, mail it back to me and that's that. Not tear the cover, not seat it incorrectly and leave a little piece of plastic in the holder that could theoretically at least scratch the paint off of more of my book. Was it "Bring Your Daughter To Work Day" at CGC that day? "HERE, HON! You can work on THIS book! Now, be CAREFUL! OH! You are SO CUTE!"

Edited March 22, 2021 by Randall Ries

[theCapraAegagrus]

4 minutes ago, Randall Ries said:

That will be a tall order in this case. Maybe the OP WILL be satisfied with a press. or maybe that's all CGC will offer. IF that. What I know for sure is that someone at CGC was careless and ruined the integrity of my Avengers #4 that I entrusted to them to simply evaluate, grade and then put in a simple holder, mail it back to me and that's that. Not tear the cover, not seat it correctly and leave a little piece of plastic in the holder that could theoretically at least scratch the paint off of more of my book. Was it "Bring Your Daughter To Work Day" at CGC that day? "HERE, HON! You can work on THIS book! Now, be CAREFUL! OH! You are SO CUTE!"

Trust me; I empathize with the situation. It's easy for me to find optimism in a bad outlook when I'm not the one experiencing it.

LMFAO at the bold.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Angel of Death

[Randall Ries]

Just now, Angel of Death said:

Trust me; I empathize with the situation. It's easy for me to find optimism in a bad outlook when I'm no the one experiencing it.t

LMFAO at the bold.

Haha! It's always easy to find solutions to other peoples bad day. I guess it's because that is a wish list book of mine, I guess. Feels personal.