They're Still Out There! 22 22

[adamstrange]

8 hours ago, tth2 said:

I believe the Jon Berk books, at the time they were auctioned off by CC, were untouched.  

 

[adamstrange]

7 hours ago, William-James88 said:

technically speaking, the church books are indeed overgraded, but no one cares. Them having writing on the cover would knock points down by any grading standard.

Technically speaking, the Church comics have writing on the cover that was not present when they left the printing plant.  The distributor code was add prior to the comic being placed on sale; a step sometimes, but not always, taken by the retailer.

To provide a counter example, very few people would consider it a defect if a novel was signed by the author.

Grading is subjective.  People are free to consider distributor codes a defect or not.  Those that do not, most likely consider it part of the original process that produced the book for sale. 

[path4play]

Okay read through the 26 pages and got caught up.  Exciting.

Aside from the new pedigree fever grade bump, this is been out two weeks, the labels are created and books are up on HA, so

1. where is the backstory?

2. are there any Police Comics in the collection so I can add them to mine?

 

 

[Robot Man]

3 hours ago, adamstrange said:

Technically speaking, the Church comics have writing on the cover that was not present when they left the printing plant.  The distributor code was add prior to the comic being placed on sale; a step sometimes, but not always, taken by the retailer.

To provide a counter example, very few people would consider it a defect if a novel was signed by the author.

Grading is subjective.  People are free to consider distributor codes a defect or not.  Those that do not, most likely consider it part of the original process that produced the book for sale. 

Codes don’t bother me if they are small, light and unobtrusive. It was such a common practice back in the GA that many books had. Often, they add to or make a book more desiresble to identify pedigrees. Church, Ohio come to mind. Who finds the name Larson or Okajima a problem? 

Pressing, or “maximizing” pedigree books is just wrong to me. Isn’t the whole point of a pedigree owning a nice book from a one owner collection? Don’t we pay more for these because of their special untouched state? Once they have been “maximized” they just lose a little of that sparkle to me...

The books in this collection don’t look like they need any help. The raw ones I saw were jaw dropping. I think they would bring record prices just the way they were found. 

[batman_fan]

Way back in my early collecting years, I hated writing on covers but now they don't bother me at all and some I actually like.

[Spyder!]

On 4/30/2021 at 10:11 AM, ChillMan said:

Exactly.  Sellers bring in stacks of 5000 books....the auction house auctions the top 100....and they buy the remaining 4900 and store them in their warehouse for 10 years.  They clean, press, post some as hammering for crazy high prices....and auction some for real.

Care to provide any evidence to support this claim? What you are accusing the auction houses of doing is illegal. Any evidence at all? No? I didn’t think so. 

[Mmehdy]

2 hours ago, Robot Man said:

Codes don’t bother me if they are small, light and unobtrusive. It was such a common practice back in the GA that many books had. Often, they add to or make a book more desiresble to identify pedigrees. Church, Ohio come to mind. Who finds the name Larson or Okajima a problem? 

Pressing, or “maximizing” pedigree books is just wrong to me. Isn’t the whole point of a pedigree owning a nice book from a one owner collection? Don’t we pay more for these because of their special untouched state? Once they have been “maximized” they just lose a little of that sparkle to me...

The books in this collection don’t look like they need any help. The raw ones I saw were jaw dropping. I think they would bring record prices just the way they were found. 

I will second that thought. The books in this group are gonna impact all GA collectors. One thought, if 5000 Ga books each unique, how many different GA books were published on average each month per year say 1943.. any idea ?..we should be able to do the math as to 5000 divided into...to establish some type of years say 1941-1946?

[Spyder!]

Man, this thread is bumming me out. It’s such a cool collection, with such incredible books, and all I hear is a bunch of whining over a few books getting grades you all think are too high based on a cover scan.  You can find examples of books where the scan doesn’t seem to align with the grade on non-pedigree books too.

I, for one, will just enjoy watching this amazing collection come to market, without dwelling so much on a few grades. This kind of collection might never come around again. It could be the last major GA pedigree find.  I’m just in awe.

[lou_fine]

12 hours ago, Rip said:

12 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Now, if possible, can you provide us with a link to this CGC 9.8 graded Eldon book because for the life of me, I can't think of one that would grade that high as virtually all of the Eldon books (similar to the Harold Curtis and Cookville pedigrees) are in the CGC 5.0 to CGC 9.0 (if that) grade range as far as I can remember.    

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superman-35-dc-1945-cgc-nm-mt-98-white-pages/a/7204-91079.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

Wow, greatly appreciate you posting a link to this absolutely killer copy and truly stunning book with the deep bold dripping blood red cover colors:  

Of course I am biased here since I have always love the books with the deep strong color strike and this copy definitely has it here in terms of the red, blue, and purples here.  The only other time I remember such a strong red cover was on a copy of Star Spangled 8 with the deep red sky, but ended up passing on the book as it was a Mark Wilson book and just figured that it couldn't be that blood red unless the book had gone through one of Mark's patented cleaning processes.  

As for the Eldon books, based upon what I have seen this appears to be an outlier condition wise as compared to the rest of the collection, but what an outlier it is in this particular case here.  

[lou_fine]

13 hours ago, RareHighGrade said:

This and the fact the books were tightly graded are among many reasons Berk books are so highly prized.  The overgrading and unnecessary pressing-related flaws of the Promise books will likely stigmatize them rather than increase their sales potential.

I somehow doubt this is going to happen because you are thinking more from the old school collector's point of view before CCG came in with certification and their whole grading game.  

Especially since today's CGC generation of collectors have been conditioned to focus in on that big big number on the top left hand corner of the slab pretty much above all else.  In addition, I believe Heritage is going to try their best to market this once in a lifetime generational collection outside the regular comic book collecting crowd and try to pull in as much of the other FOMO driven collectibles money that seems to be flying around out there.  And guess what, these newbies with the deep pockets aren't going to know anything at all or care to learn about pressing, CPR, cleaning, stigmatization, overgrading, or what have you because the only thing they will focus in on is that big number and if it's the highest graded copy because that's easy for them to understand.  

Edited May 1, 2021 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

2 hours ago, Robot Man said:

Codes don’t bother me if they are small, light and unobtrusive. It was such a common practice back in the GA that many books had. Often, they add to or make a book more desiresble to identify pedigrees. Church, Ohio come to mind. Who finds the name Larson or Okajima a problem? 

In total agreement with you 110% on your point here, especially when you are referring to the Church or Larson books with their long recognized small and unobtrusive codes and/or names written on the covers.  In fact, I would definitely prefer a Church book with a code as opposed to one without the code.  

Although the codes on these Promise Collection books are clearly larger and hence a bit more obtrusive as compared to the small neat Church codes, I am sure the marketplace will have no problems accepting them due to their provenance of this pedigree.  Similar in vien to the Camp copies of the Okajima books where eveen though they have all of the large writing all over the covers, they are now clearly much more coveted by the collecting base as evident by the much higher prices they go for as compared to the regular Okajima books.  

 

On 4/29/2021 at 3:56 PM, adamstrange said:

Distributor codes and names are treated the same on pedigree & non-pedigree books.

 

Although I don't believe CGC downgrades for the small distributor codes and/or small recognized names on pedigrees such as the Church and Larson books, do you have any idea how they handle some of the other pedigrees?  They seem to have been inconsistent with some of them like the Dell File Copies where they were dinged for the writing on the covers at one time, then not, and now seemingly are once again depending upon the book.  How about the Camp copies of Okajima with all of that writing or the Recil Macon as I have one of these books and it looks like he wrote his name in there at least a dozen times, including filling out the coupon.  Apparently, it is common and one of the trademarks of the Recil Macon pedigree books, but how does CGC handle all of this writing from a condition grading point of view?  

[MrBedrock]

1 hour ago, Spyder! said:

Man, this thread is bumming me out. It’s such a cool collection, with such incredible books, and all I hear is a bunch of whining over a few books getting grades you all think are too high based on a cover scan.  You can find examples of books where the scan doesn’t seem to align with the grade on non-pedigree books too.

I, for one, will just enjoy watching this amazing collection come to market, without dwelling so much on a few grades. This kind of collection might never come around again. It could be the last major GA pedigree find.  I’m just in awe.

Amen. And I, for two.

[lou_fine]

13 hours ago, Rip said:

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superman-35-dc-1945-cgc-nm-mt-98-white-pages/a/7204-91079.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

 

Interesting to note that when I clicked onto this link for the Eldon copy of Superman 35, one of the things i noticed right away was the CGC 9.6 graded copy of TMNT 1 just 2 books to the right that sold for what at the time (i.e. February of 2019) was probably a rather astounding price of $14,400.  

Fast forward a short 2+ years later and a TMNT 1 in CGC 9.6 sells for $66K at Heritage and then another copy sells for $88K an even shorter 2 weeks right after that.  Kind of sad to see how much the HTF GA market has fallen behind the much more readily available keys books form the FOMO driven BA and CA marketplace, although I strongly feel that this Promise Collection will go a long way to facilitate a catch way for the GA marketplace and will definitely be fun and interesting to watch what plays out.    

[adamstrange]

42 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Although I don't believe CGC downgrades for the small distributor codes and/or small recognized names on pedigrees such as the Church and Larson books, do you have any idea how they handle some of the other pedigrees?  They seem to have been inconsistent with some of them like the Dell File Copies where they were dinged for the writing on the covers at one time, then not, and now seemingly are once again depending upon the book.  How about the Camp copies of Okajima with all of that writing or the Recil Macon as I have one of these books and it looks like he wrote his name in there at least a dozen times, including filling out the coupon.  Apparently, it is common and one of the trademarks of the Recil Macon pedigree books, but how does CGC handle all of this writing from a condition grading point of view?  

Excessive writing on the cover does get some level of downgrade beyond the usual.  The Marvel 1 Lloyd Jacquet "Pay Copy" is an example of a near mint copy receiving a 9.0 due to the writing.

[adamstrange]

1 hour ago, Spyder! said:

Man, this thread is bumming me out.

Our plan is working. 

[batman_fan]

4 hours ago, batman_fan said:

Way back in my early collecting years, I hated writing on covers but now they don't bother me at all and some I actually like.

As an example, here is a book I bought about 20 years ago at the Las Vegas comic con (very poorly attended show but tons of great stuff).  It was a gift to a kid and the Aunt wrote the birthday greeting on the cover.

Edited May 1, 2021 by batman_fan

[Cobbledclam]

[Sarg]

9 hours ago, adamstrange said:

Technically speaking, the Church comics have writing on the cover that was not present when they left the printing plant.  The distributor code was add prior to the comic being placed on sale; a step sometimes, but not always, taken by the retailer.

To provide a counter example, very few people would consider it a defect if a novel was signed by the author.

Grading is subjective.  People are free to consider distributor codes a defect or not.  Those that do not, most likely consider it part of the original process that produced the book for sale. 

That's an apples to oranges comparison, though. Writing on the cover of a comic by some anonymous distributor is unrelated to a writer of a book signing the copy, usually at a fan's request. 

A distributor scribbling on a cover is no different than a random stranger scribbling on the cover. It was not part of the manufacturing process. If a tiny chip on the edge reduces the grade by a point, writing should also, by any measure -- if not more.  

[lou_fine]

On 4/30/2021 at 8:28 AM, buttock said:

On 4/30/2021 at 8:11 AM, vheflin said:

What if the parents (or a sibling) promised to keep the comics while the collector served in Korea but he didn't return.

Getting warm 

Yes, this would definitely be a rather warm and sentimental back story to the collection, a bit akin to the Tom Reilly San Francisco books then.  

 

[adamstrange]

4 minutes ago, Sarg said:

A distributor scribbling on a cover is no different than a random stranger scribbling on the cover. It was not part of the manufacturing process.

Alternatively, that code is integral part of the distribution and retail process so should not count off at all.  

CGC takes a position between these two and,to my knowledge, doesn't give a 9.9 or 10.0 to a comic with a distributor code.

Should you start a grading company, you can use whatever system you devise for factoring in the different aspects of a comic to produce a single grade summarizing it's condition.  You'll probably find it hard to get everyone to agree to it.  As it says on the back of the CGC label, grading is subjective.