They're Still Out There! 22 22

[Flex Mentallo]

1 minute ago, Spyder! said:

To me, a "true collector" is someone who gets drunk, goes online, and buys a comic book they never would have purchased if sober.

Hic (urp)

[buttock]

35 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

We've seen this story before.  Tom Reilly.  Never verified.  It is naïve to think that if you put out a story to hype a collection you want to sell, to create an emotional reaction, no one is going to attempt to verify the story.  

Agreed.  In this age it's naive.  And all the more reason to name it something better than "The Promise Collection".  That name just begs you to ask, "tell me more?"

[sfcityduck]

1 hour ago, Funnybooks said:

We are not entitled to anything more than what the family wishes to reveal regarding the origin of these books and now the Promise collection. Enjoy them for what they are and let's celebrate having access to one of the most important OO collections this hobby has ever seen. We'll all need to agree to disagree but let's not disparage the collection or how Heritage wishes to handle the consignment. Ultimately, our words can negatively impact the value of the books and thus hurting the monetary return the family will achieve.

I think that buyers are entitled to the truth about a collection, not marketing hype.  So we're entitled to discuss and verify what we can - including the backstory, the grades, etc.  

At this point, we don't know if the collection is being sold by the family or by someone who bought the collection from the family.  The Heritage ad on Bleeding Cool states "The consignors of these comics wish to remain anonymous, but Heritage Auctions has revealed some details behind the origins of the Promise Collection and its name."  It does NOT say the family are the consignors.

[pemart1966]

6 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

I think that buyers are entitled to the truth about a collection, not marketing hype.  So we're entitled to discuss and verify what we can - including the backstory, the grades, etc.  

At this point, we don't know if the collection is being sold by the family or by someone who bought the collection from the family.  The Heritage ad on Bleeding Cool states "The consignors of these comics wish to remain anonymous, but Heritage Auctions has revealed some details behind the origins of the Promise Collection and its name."  It does NOT say the family are the consignors.

Who knows really.  The entire story could be just that...a story...

[Flex Mentallo]

This entertaining discussion reminded me about the recent controversy regarding Leonardo's Salvatore Mundi attribution following its sale to a Saudi prince. He refused to loan it to The Louvre for an exhibition because they were not confident that it is an autograph painting by the master's hand alone, and would not as the Prince demanded, hang it alongside the Mona Lisa.

I was reminded of this because until the 18th century it was accepted that Renaissance artists had workshops full of assistants who helped the master complete commissions.

After Sotheby's and Christie's were founded in the mid 18th century, they actively promoted the concept of the singular genius who alone produced great works.

 

In turn, expert attribution became critical to ascertaining provenance and value. (A painting in the National Gallery in London originally attributed to Rembrandt was years later attributed to one of his followers. As a result, the painting's value instantly fell by 90%).

 

The process of authentication may vary from field to field, but as we all appreciate, these extrinsic factors contribute to investor confidence, and the intrinsic (monetary) value is established after a successful sale.

 

I can hardly begin to imagine how the Saudi Prince felt after having acquired the Salvatore Mundi, its authenticity as an autograph work was called into question.

 

To which all I can say is hic(urp).

 

[lou_fine]

On 5/9/2021 at 6:55 AM, Chief1332 said:

I think it's hilarious, and just wrong, to say what CBCS "would have" done, when CGC was given this task.  Many comments in regards to poor grading, and spot on or not, CGC has to answer for these grades.

 

CGC does not have to answer for these grades (whether deservedly for most or not for some) because bidders will be agressively and passionately bidding hands over fists to acquire these books, and they (i.e. the buyers) will be the ones paying for the grades regardless of what has been assigned to them by CGC.  

I am sure that both CGC and HA know that the loudest complaints about grades are usually short term and tends to fade over time, while the grades on the books will remain in the long term because they are what they are and nothing will change that when it comes seemingly overgraded books which no rational purchaser would ever even dare try to resubmit for a potential upgrade.  

It's almost like the Peter Principle of comic book grading.....................in a comic book certification world where maximization of potential is not only encouraged, but seemingly necessary in this grading game of ours with the rules as currently set by CGC, all books will eventually rise to a level of either being clearly overgraded or at an artificially manipulated seemingly close enough to accurate grade where the owner will not be willing to risk the chance of a further resubmit.  

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by lou_fine

[marmat]

3 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

I think that your statement of opinion  on what you define as a" true comic book collector" can be challenged. My definition does limit to "old school: collectors who were at the dinosaur age of comic book collecting. That is NOT my definition. A "true comic book collector" can come on board any time, any place. My definition is simple...a comic book collector who buys the GA/SA comic book FOR the book itself. The art, cover, ownership with a purpose. The non -true  comic book collector in my book is not any part of a true comic book  collector at all. They are buying widgets whether it is Gold futures or Lumber. They can care less about fandom, about the art and true beauty of a comic book. There sole purpose is to buy low and sell high and never look back. There needs to be a dividing line in our great Ga/Sa comic book world to differentiate between the two in my opinion. My definition is "True comic book collector"  is those who have a emotional connection to our great GA/SA world...Man Women, Child some  human connection other than greed itself. The speculators have none and are devoid of any emotional connection. I am a true comic book collector and I love Ga/SA and every aspect of our world, whether its 50 plus years for me, or 50 minutes for you...we are all on the same page.

 Your post itself does what you dislike the most. It categorizes old (Grumpy) vs new collectors and it is just not that simple. In the fact the answer is very simple...it is where your heart lies in the GA/SA comic book world that really counts.

So a guy/gal in his 20 that collects and enjoy Copper and Modern comics is not a true collector? 

Only GA and SA collectors are true collectors? 

Or I am misunderstanding your post? 

[drbanner]

21 minutes ago, marmat said:

So a guy/gal in his 20 that collects and enjoy Copper and Modern comics is not a true collector? 

Only GA and SA collectors are true collectors? 

Or I am misunderstanding your post? 

There's a lot of disparaging of copper/modern/bronze collectors and "label chasers" on this board by a couple outspoken old-school collectors. Their opinion seems to be that what/how they collect(ed) back in the day is cool, what/how you collect in 2021 is dumb. Getting kinda tired of hearing it from the same posters over and over.

[Mmehdy]

no limitation on what you collect, Ga/SA used only as a reference, Marmat.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Mmehdy

[MrBedrock]

4 minutes ago, drbanner said:

There's a lot of disparaging of copper/modern/bronze collectors and "label chasers" on this board by a couple outspoken old-school collectors. Their opinion seems to be that what/how they collect(ed) back in the day is cool, what/how you collect in 2021 is dumb. Getting kinda tired of hearing it from the same posters over and over.

In an oblivious attempt to re-establish my street cred among to copper/bronze/modern crowd, here is one of my favorite newer acquisitions...

 

 

[Mmehdy]

2 hours ago, Funnybooks said:

I believe your definition is too narrow and that we all collect differently.  I have both an emotional connection to my books and to my money, so that makes me "less" of a true collector?

As a true collector, if money were not a factor, would you be willing to sell your books at cost in the future? Better yet, have you ever sold a book for a profit?

Curious mind?

Could be, and I agree that you can have both emotional and business connections when buying, selling or trading Ga/SA. My shout goes out to those "Gameshop stock crazies" who invade a market, blow it up just to make a profit and have NO emotional qualms about leaving collectors  and destruction in their path in quest to make a "profit'.

[Mmehdy]

2 hours ago, innocuous said:

This eliminates a lot of "collectors" on this board. Not just from other ages, but also with other motivations, such as collecting based on historical or cultural significance.

I am targeting the above pure "speculator", a collector who buys a comic book for historical significance is a collector.

[Straw-Man]

2 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

I think that buyers are entitled to the truth about a collection, not marketing hype.  So we're entitled to discuss and verify what we can - including the backstory, the grades, etc.  

At this point, we don't know if the collection is being sold by the family or by someone who bought the collection from the family.  The Heritage ad on Bleeding Cool states "The consignors of these comics wish to remain anonymous, but Heritage Auctions has revealed some details behind the origins of the Promise Collection and its name."  It does NOT say the family are the consignors.

and SO WHAT?!   it is an original owner collection that meets cgc's pedigree criteria.  thus, they're in a ped label.  buy them if you want; or ask that a little pamphlet be produced about "the backstory" and buy that.  but they are JUST FUNNY-BOOKS, and if you don't like any aspect of the find/buy/consignment/manipulation/grading/seller, then move on to the next funny book that tickles your fancy.  50 pages of drivel and not a book sold yet.  lawd, i say LAWD.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Straw-Man

[Spyder!]

So, this conversation had been going on for a long time it seems.

 

[Crowzilla]

3 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

At this point, we don't know if the collection is being sold by the family or by someone who bought the collection from the family.  The Heritage ad on Bleeding Cool states "The consignors of these comics wish to remain anonymous, but Heritage Auctions has revealed some details behind the origins of the Promise Collection and its name."  It does NOT say the family are the consignors.

Why in the world would we be entitled to that information? Totally none of our business.

 

2 hours ago, MrBedrock said:

In an oblivious attempt to re-establish my street cred among to copper/bronze/modern crowd, here is one of my favorite newer acquisitions...

 

 

Don't know if this will work with the copper/modern crowd, but you've totally won me over.

[Terry JSA]

On 4/17/2021 at 11:40 PM, Moondog said:

I'm not going to steal Heritage's thunder, but I will say that I spoke to a close buddy today who told me that they will be selling a new pedigree collection of 5,000 high-grade GA books. 

What he was telling me was absolutely mind-blowing.

They're still out there! 

 

Well, after seeing it on Heritage Auctions, I must say it’s absolutely mind-blowing for sure!

[Mmehdy]

1 hour ago, Straw-Man said:

and SO WHAT?!   it is an original owner collection that meets cgc's pedigree criteria.  thus, they're in a ped label.  buy them if you want; or ask that a little pamphlet be produced about "the backstory" and buy that.  but they are JUST FUNNY-BOOKS, and if you don't like any aspect of the find/buy/consignment/manipulation/grading/seller, then move on to the next funny book that tickles your fancy.  50 pages of drivel and not a book sold yet.  lawd, i say LAWD.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you that GA/SA comic masterpieces are "JUST FUNNY-BOOKS". I find nothing funny about Captain America punching Hitler in the face in Cap #1, nor Amazing Fantasy 15 last panel saying" with great power comes great responsibilty". This is great literature  at its finest combined with some of the greatest artists of all time in a combination arf from which has occured since caveman times.

 50 pages of "dirvel" this is not. This is a historic time for GA comic books collectors in which 10 or 20 years from now, the Future collectors will wish that they were their and buying books, just like you and me would like to go back to the time Chuck was selling his MH comics and buying more that what we did. The information provided today indicates that 95% of 4,750 books are gonna be at the top of the census, mile high and all other pedigres already graded.

 No Straw-Man, for the veteran comic book collector, this time is very special to be a GA collector, to be able to get a shot of 5000 promise comic books, 5 pages, 50 pages or 500 pages will not change that fact.  Straw-Man remember what Rene Bellog said to Indana Jones when he wanted to destory the arc: 

 "All your life has been spent inthe pursuit of archaeological relics. Inside the Ark are treasures beyond your wildest aspirations. You want to see it opened as well as I. Indiana, we are simply passing thru history. This is history."

 Straw-Man... this is history

Edited May 10, 2021 by Mmehdy

[pemart1966]

3 hours ago, lou_fine said:

CGC does not have to answer for these grades (whether deservedly for most or not for some) because bidders will be agressively and passionately bidding hands over fists to acquire these books, and they (i.e. the buyers) will be the ones paying for the grades regardless of what has been assigned to them by CGC.  

I am sure that both CGC and HA know that the loudest complaints about grades are usually short term and tends to fade over time, while the grades on the books will remain in the long term because they are what they are and nothing will change that when it comes seemingly overgraded books which no rational purchaser would ever even dare try to resubmit for a potential upgrade.  

It's almost like the Peter Principle of comic book grading.....................in a comic book certification world where maximization of potential is not only encouraged, but seemingly necessary in this grading game of ours with the rules as currently set by CGC, all books will eventually rise to a level of either being clearly overgraded or at an artificailly manipulated accurate grade where the owner will not be willing to risk the chance of a further resubmit.  

 

Is there any estimate as to how many of these books have been pressed?

[Gatsby77]

2 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

I am targeting the above pure "speculator", a collector who buys a comic book for historical significance is a collector.

Counterpoint: nobody who spends $1,000+ on a comic book is purely in it for “historical significance.”

I remember the first time I spent $6 on a back issue (Ghost Rider - 1990, # 1), the first time I spent >$50 (New Mutants # 87), the first time I spent $200 (Ghost Rider - 1950, # 1), the first time I spent >$800 (X-Men # 1), the first time I spent >$1,000 (Batman # 5) and the first time I spent >$2,000 (Showcase # 4).

Just because I’ve been doing this for 30+ years doesn’t make me any less aware of value than the latest “new money” who have only been doing this for 3-6 months.

Nor should I have any more claim to these Promise Collection books than that new money.

[tth2]

7 hours ago, innocuous said:

Hopefully since they went to HA first, they had the forethought to take pictures before sending to CGC. Although I suspect with the potential damage done before slabbing, we'll never see the before pics.

Lon posted pics of some of the books in raw form.  In this thread.