Old Guard says Market Bubble vs New Guard says Market Correction. What say you? 1 1

[OuterBanks]

3 hours ago, the blob said:

He is not talking about buying and selling slabs. He is talking about finding a cheap raw, maybe pressing it, and then getting it slabbed. There is a whole lot more expertise going on with that than picking the right books, and luck. 

I do the same and have had a great run.  I will on occasion buy a collection form someone who just wants to unload it (I’m getting a complete run of Sandman and Tomb of Dracula next week) and I can tell you that even with those things going for you the stock market is a better investment.

- Capital gains on collectibles is 28%, 31% if you make over $200K

- You can’t do this in a tax deferred account - anyone can do a ROTH or “reverse” ROTH even - between you & your wife you can put $12k into stocks/crypto whatever and never pay one penny on capital gains - you can do this every year until you retire

Investments like Crypto are going crazy as have standard indexes like the Nasdaq & SP500.  Pretty sure if you had 10K in 2003 and put it into the Nasdaq vs. buying a collection (cost of press / clean, cost to list, commissions on sales, packaging costs, CGC costs) you would be behind.

The tax system is setup to view collectibles (including art, gold, coins, stamps too) as a wasteful endeavor.  I still do it because I love the hobby - but I’m under no illusion that my money would have been better off going into more traditional investments in a brokerage or retirement account.

 

[the blob]

58 minutes ago, VikramK said:

I do the same and have had a great run.  I will on occasion buy a collection form someone who just wants to unload it (I’m getting a complete run of Sandman and Tomb of Dracula next week) and I can tell you that even with those things going for you the stock market is a better investment.

- Capital gains on collectibles is 28%, 31% if you make over $200K

- You can’t do this in a tax deferred account - anyone can do a ROTH or “reverse” ROTH even - between you & your wife you can put $12k into stocks/crypto whatever and never pay one penny on capital gains - you can do this every year until you retire

Investments like Crypto are going crazy as have standard indexes like the Nasdaq & SP500.  Pretty sure if you had 10K in 2003 and put it into the Nasdaq vs. buying a collection (cost of press / clean, cost to list, commissions on sales, packaging costs, CGC costs) you would be behind.

The tax system is setup to view collectibles (including art, gold, coins, stamps too) as a wasteful endeavor.  I still do it because I love the hobby - but I’m under no illusion that my money would have been better off going into more traditional investments in a brokerage or retirement account.

 

Is this wrong?

"If you file taxes as a single person, your Modified Adjusted Gross Income (MAGI) must be under $139,000 for the tax year 2020 and under $140,000 for the tax year 2021 to contribute to a Roth IRA, and if you're married and file jointly, your MAGI must be under $206,000 for the tax year 2020 and 208,000 for the tax year ..."

You can do a traditional IRA if you exceed those numbers, but can't make it tax deductable. So, you have to invest with after tax $, it does grow ta deferred, true, which is good for dividend reinvestment and if you move stuff around a lot, but then you pay taxes again when you withdraw. So a 401K (if you have access) is better as you can at least deduct your contributions, but your investment options are more limited (although you ought to be able to get a low fee S&P 500 index fund in any 401k)

 

 

 

 

[kimik]

9 hours ago, VikramK said:

On 5/3/2021 at 7:29 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

I dont think the hobby as a whole is talking about those books.  More so the keys and semi keys.

Not getting your stock market remark.  Generally comics have outperformed the stock market since I graduated from college back in 2003, at least for the average investor.  Stock market has never outperformed any of my CGC invoices. 

Stock market is absolutely killing it - more so than comics - SP500 in 2003 was less than 1,000.  It pays dividedens and you don’t have to pay taxes on your gains (ROTH IRA, Reverse ROTH etc.).  Nasdaq has done even better.

Agreed with this point. Trading comics, which is what the press and sub game is, requires the same level of expertise and experience as trading equities markets. There is plenty of $$$ to be made, but my experience has been that trading equities where you can buy and then sell 100s/1,000s/10,000s of shares at once has a much higher ROI (especially if you include your time in the ROI equation) than comics over time. 

[OuterBanks]

32 minutes ago, the blob said:

Is this wrong?

"If you file taxes as a single person, your Modified Adjusted Gross Income (MAGI) must be under $139,000 for the tax year 2020 and under $140,000 for the tax year 2021 to contribute to a Roth IRA, and if you're married and file jointly, your MAGI must be under $206,000 for the tax year 2020 and 208,000 for the tax year ..."

You can do a traditional IRA if you exceed those numbers, but can't make it tax deductable. So, you have to invest with after tax $, it does grow ta deferred, true, which is good for dividend reinvestment and if you move stuff around a lot, but then you pay taxes again when you withdraw. So a 401K (if you have access) is better as you can at least deduct your contributions, but your investment options are more limited (although you ought to be able to get a low fee S&P 500 index fund in any 401k)

 

 

 

 

 

There’s a loophole - good CPA’s will tell you about it.  No matter your income level you can put $6K a year into an IRA.  You will not get any tax benefits if you make too much.  You leave it in cash for a week or two and then you roll it over into a ROTH.

Once in the ROTH you can go hog wild and buy/trade equities or index funds or whatever you want.  All your earnings are tax free.  It’s called a “Reverse ROTH”.  The IRS is ok with it too - it was thought to be a loophole but people protested so congress left it alone.  

Comics are at a disadvantage to stocks/equities when it comes to investing.  I just do it because I love the hobby and collecting.

Imagine if you bought a few stocks like Amazon, Google etc.. 10yrs ago in a ROTH IRA - you’d be a millionaire with zero to pay in taxes.  Can’t do that in comics.  But comics are more fun

 

 

[the blob]

7 minutes ago, VikramK said:

 

There’s a loophole - good CPA’s will tell you about it.  No matter your income level you can put $6K a year into an IRA.  You will not get any tax benefits if you make too much.  You leave it in cash for a week or two and then you roll it over into a ROTH.

Once in the ROTH you can go hog wild and buy/trade equities or index funds or whatever you want.  All your earnings are tax free.  It’s called a “Reverse ROTH”.  The IRS is ok with it too - it was thought to be a loophole but people protested so congress left it alone.  

Comics are at a disadvantage to stocks/equities when it comes to investing.  I just do it because I love the hobby and collecting.

Imagine if you bought a few stocks like Amazon, Google etc.. 10yrs ago in a ROTH IRA - you’d be a millionaire with zero to pay in taxes.  Can’t do that in comics.  But comics are more fun

 

 

I hate that my only deductability route is a 401K and i am stuck with the funds in question.

OK, I read up on that loophole. Interesting. Of course, investing in this stock market feels like investing in 9.8s, but I was too chickenshyt to jump back in last year when I was hoarding TP and rice. I was waiting for a crash. The crash happened. And then I was terrified there would be a second crash and I'd lose my job and wanted the cash accessible. Stoopid. I am due to inherit a little money. Maybe this is the time to set up a Roth/IRA as I won't paying any taxes on that, but it would be considered post-tax income.

 

[kimik]

1 hour ago, the blob said:

I hate that my only deductability route is a 401K and i am stuck with the funds in question.

OK, I read up on that loophole. Interesting. Of course, investing in this stock market feels like investing in 9.8s, but I was too chickenshyt to jump back in last year when I was hoarding TP and rice. I was waiting for a crash. The crash happened. And then I was terrified there would be a second crash and I'd lose my job and wanted the cash accessible. Stoopid. I am due to inherit a little money. Maybe this is the time to set up a Roth/IRA as I won't paying any taxes on that, but it would be considered post-tax income.

 

tth2 nailed his market bottom call in the Gold at 500/oz thread almost to the date. 

[Hamlet]

3 hours ago, the blob said:

Is this wrong?

"If you file taxes as a single person, your Modified Adjusted Gross Income (MAGI) must be under $139,000 for the tax year 2020 and under $140,000 for the tax year 2021 to contribute to a Roth IRA, and if you're married and file jointly, your MAGI must be under $206,000 for the tax year 2020 and 208,000 for the tax year ..."

You can do a traditional IRA if you exceed those numbers, but can't make it tax deductable. So, you have to invest with after tax $, it does grow ta deferred, true, which is good for dividend reinvestment and if you move stuff around a lot, but then you pay taxes again when you withdraw. So a 401K (if you have access) is better as you can at least deduct your contributions, but your investment options are more limited (although you ought to be able to get a low fee S&P 500 index fund in any 401k)

 

 

 

 

You make too much for a Roth IRA 😀

 

[OuterBanks]

2 hours ago, the blob said:

I hate that my only deductability route is a 401K and i am stuck with the funds in question.

OK, I read up on that loophole. Interesting. Of course, investing in this stock market feels like investing in 9.8s, but I was too chickenshyt to jump back in last year when I was hoarding TP and rice. I was waiting for a crash. The crash happened. And then I was terrified there would be a second crash and I'd lose my job and wanted the cash accessible. Stoopid. I am due to inherit a little money. Maybe this is the time to set up a Roth/IRA as I won't paying any taxes on that, but it would be considered post-tax income.

 

 

Gotta put your emotions aside and go with the data:

https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2014/02/worlds-worst-market-timer/

I think the market and everything is probably inflated or bubbly but who knows how high?  And who knows how fast a correction?  We think comics are in a bubble, they can go down - but how does someone know the bottom?  I think buy/hold sensible books and index funds is the way to go (emphasize retirement stuff over comics).

[OuterBanks]

17 minutes ago, Hamlet said:

You make too much for a Roth IRA 😀

 

 

Nope - Reverse ROTH IRA.  Anyone can do it - even if you’re above the cut off.  It’s a known loophole - that the IRS decided to leave in place.

 

[Hamlet]

3 hours ago, VikramK said:

 

Nope - Reverse ROTH IRA.  Anyone can do it - even if you’re above the cut off.  It’s a known loophole - that the IRS decided to leave in place.

 

I understand that.  I was making a joke.

[MetalPSI]

5 minutes ago, Hamlet said:

I understand that.  I was making a joke.

 

[the blob]

3 hours ago, Hamlet said:

You make too much for a Roth IRA 😀

 

I am a 50 yearish old lawyer and my wife is a 50ish professor both working in the largest city in the country. It is hard to not pass the limit and not be homeless here.

[the blob]

3 hours ago, VikramK said:

 

Gotta put your emotions aside and go with the data:

https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2014/02/worlds-worst-market-timer/

I think the market and everything is probably inflated or bubbly but who knows how high?  And who knows how fast a correction?  We think comics are in a bubble, they can go down - but how does someone know the bottom?  I think buy/hold sensible books and index funds is the way to go (emphasize retirement stuff over comics).

Yes, I know, I know

[Aman619]

aren't taxes due when on the gains in IRAs when you withdraw the funds?  Governments gets a share of ALL profits.  By and large though I agree that the markets can of quite often pay off a lot better than even the amazing gains on Big Ticket comics that took decades to increase in value as much as stocks more often do in less time.

[Hamlet]

2 hours ago, the blob said:

I am a 50 yearish old lawyer and my wife is a 50ish professor both working in the largest city in the country. It is hard to not pass the limit and not be homeless here.

I live in flyover country.  I’m a network engineer and my wife works at a University in their accounting department.  We get under the Roth IRA income limit by maxing out my 401k and her 457.  That income can buy an awful lot of tater tot hot dish around here 😀

[Hamlet]

1 hour ago, Aman619 said:

aren't taxes due when on the gains in IRAs when you withdraw the funds?  Governments gets a share of ALL profits.  By and large though I agree that the markets can of quite often pay off a lot better than even the amazing gains on Big Ticket comics that took decades to increase in value as much as stocks more often do in less time.

For regular IRAs, yes.  A Roth IRA is funded with after tax money.  It compounds tax free and is tax free at withdrawal.  
It is a pretty good way to shelter a lot of investment gains from taxation.  

[Vixom]

Neither. A lot more people have entered the market. Created a new market. Sure people will leave when things get opened up. But more will trickle in. Comic shows movies are everywhere. I don't see a price drop soon. Not until people tire of the movies shows.

[Aman619]

2 hours ago, Hamlet said:

For regular IRAs, yes.  A Roth IRA is funded with after tax money.  It compounds tax free and is tax free at withdrawal.  
It is a pretty good way to shelter a lot of investment gains from taxation.  

got it it.  I just read the rules and youre right, and I felt stupid for staying with a traditional IRA... but theres a catch, the income limits. If you earn over 200K you CANT use a Roth IRA.  Ive had plenty of "good years" so it was never an option. Seems to be targeted at inducing those who earn well but dont save much... Rewarding them for not spending the last 1 - 7K of their income.  Pretty clever.

[the blob]

9 hours ago, Aman619 said:

aren't taxes due when on the gains in IRAs when you withdraw the funds?  Governments gets a share of ALL profits.  By and large though I agree that the markets can of quite often pay off a lot better than even the amazing gains on Big Ticket comics that took decades to increase in value as much as stocks more often do in less time.

Not the roth

[the blob]

5 hours ago, Aman619 said:

got it it.  I just read the rules and youre right, and I felt stupid for staying with a traditional IRA... but theres a catch, the income limits. If you earn over 200K you CANT use a Roth IRA.  Ive had plenty of "good years" so it was never an option. Seems to be targeted at inducing those who earn well but dont save much... Rewarding them for not spending the last 1 - 7K of their income.  Pretty clever.

He pointed out a loophole.