Looking for tips on how to "Make an Offer"

[wenson-migration]

Not to turn this thread into a discussion about Spencer Beck, but here's the problem that I had with him.

 

Originally, I decided that I would only collect Ultimate Spider-Man pages as that's one of the few comics that I really enjoy reading. So, I bought three pages (technically four as one was a DPS) from Spencer in one order and paid the posted price on each of them.

 

Then less than a month later, there was another page that caught my eye and I figured since he'd be the only guy that I'd be dealing with for my Ultimate Spidey fix, I shot him off an email. I let him know that I'd just gotten into collecting, how I'd like to only collect Ultimate Spidey pages, how I'd just spent x-amount of dollars with him and there's another page I'm interested in. I offered him 87% of what the posted price was. He didn't even negotiate or say that he'd get back to the artist -- he flatly refused and told me that if I wanted the page, I'd have to reorder and pay the posted price.

 

Okay, so he's not willing to negotiate the price. What's the big deal right? Well, I don't have a problem with him having fixed prices. If the posted price is outside my budget, I don't get it, no big deal.

 

But, he overcharged me for shipping. He charged me $20 shipping when the sticker was marked at just over $10. Even if you add the masonite board that was included in shipping that's not going to bring it up to $20. Fine, let the guy make a little money off of me from shipping.

 

On top of that, he marked the full value of the order on the customs form. Fine, I'm a Canadian and that's the cost sometimes of cross border buying.

 

So, after shilling out money for the three pages, plus overpaying for shipping, plus paying huge duties on the pages, I ask the guy to knock down the price 13% on my next order (less than a month later) and he flatly refuses.

 

I think that if you're not willing to negotiate with the price, you could at least help your customers out in other areas.

 

****rant over****

[Lambo]

But, he overcharged me for shipping. He charged me $20 shipping when the sticker was marked at just over $10. Even if you add the masonite board that was included in shipping that's not going to bring it up to $20. Fine, let the guy make a little money off of me from shipping.

 

On top of that, he marked the full value of the order on the customs form. Fine, I'm a Canadian and that's the cost sometimes of cross border buying.

 

So, after shilling out money for the three pages, plus overpaying for shipping, plus paying huge duties on the pages, I ask the guy to knock down the price 13% on my next order (less than a month later) and he flatly refuses.

 

I think that if you're not willing to negotiate with the price, you could at least help your customers out in other areas.

 

****rant over****

 

This is a exact copy and paste from Spencer's website:

 

Domestic shipping charges are $ 10.00 for U.P.S., $15.00 for US Postal Service (USPS price includes an additional $5.00 surcharge for Courier Service) or $22.00 for FedEx (up to 10 pages). International (Outside the U.S.) Shipments are determined by Weight & Destination. All International Orders are sent via USPS Global Express Mail Fully Insured and Declared for Full Customs Value. No Exceptions will be made to this policy. Please consult your country's customs guidelines for any duties you may be responsible for. The Artist's Choice is not responsible for any import duties your country may place on a package.

 

http://www.theartistschoice.com/faq.htm

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So, the $10 "sticker" for shipping to which you referred was for "domestic" shipping and only for UPS shipping. Since his website plainly states his location as being in Connecticut, I would think you would know you didn't qualify as "domestic."

 

Then he states pretty clearly that International shipments are to be shipped via Global Express Mail AND that the full customs value will be declared. Well, I can tell you that $20 is a reasonable amount for a shipment sent that way especially with the heavy masonite he usually uses.

 

Lambert

[wenson-migration]

Lambert....

 

The $10 sticker that I refer to was the USPS sticker that was stuck onto my package when it arrived.

 

My concern was that he was UNWILLING to negotiate with me after I spent so much money only weeks earlier. He wasn't willing to let 15-20 dollars off of a page to a customer that had just spent money weeks earlier and who had pretty much told the guy that all of my OA money would come to him.

 

Even if his percentage was a staggering 50% of the final sale price, he was unwilling to keep what would have been a long term customer for $7.50-10.

 

To add to my tale of woe with Spencer. He also clearly asks you to indicate what the first panel of the page you're ordering is so that there's not a wrong page sent. Well, I did that and the wrong page WAS sent. I liked the wrong page enough to not want to pay for shipping and customs twice and kept it.

 

Anyways, if you've had positive experiences with the guy, buy from him. All the power to you. I'm not in the habit of just handing over my hard earned money to someone who's not willing to work with me so that we're both happy.

[heartened]

Let me change up my topic a bit. I think we've clarified what happens when you get a "make me an offer" exchange, but what about set prices? How set are they? If, for example, I see a rep online stating the selling price as $350. Does that mean he'll only take that, or is there negotiation involved? If so, how much lower is realistic? [i know it depends on the artist and the art, but bear with me here...]

 

That is going to vary from dealer to dealer. It never hurts to make a lower offer though, the worst that can happen is they say no and you pay the stated price.

 

Agreed. There is almost always room for negotiation. The higher the price, the more room! In general, I'd say you can safely start at 20% below the price. But, many dealers will have already marked up their items past market value. Really, the best option is to know the market yourself, and make an offer commensurate with that. If you rely only on seller price tags, that's always going to be an inflated view of market value. Some items stay on dealer's websites for months to years because they are way overpriced.

 

 

Hey Hari,

 

" Really, the best option is to know the market yourself, and make an offer commensurate with that." - for the new blood in the OA space, how do you recommend doing that??

 

See if you can find other pages that have sold, and chart the prices. Is the one you're after better or worse than the ones that have sold? How much better or worse? If you can't find other examples that have sold, find out what the artist's other work goes for. Do the same charting on prices for that, and then decide if the work you're after is considered better or worse than the other. If you simply can't find anything, then find someone who's buying the same type of art and ask their opinion. Ask a few people. Eventually, you'll see items sell over time, and come to realize what things are worth. Especially things that you collect. I know who to turn to if I have a Byrne question or a Perez question. Others turn to me if they have a Miller question, for example. This doesn't happen overnight, but eventually you'll be an expert at what you collect.

[Lambo]

The $10 sticker that I refer to was the USPS sticker that was stuck onto my package when it arrived.

 

My concern was that he was UNWILLING to negotiate with me after I spent so much money only weeks earlier. He wasn't willing to let 15-20 dollars off of a page to a customer that had just spent money weeks earlier and who had pretty much told the guy that all of my OA money would come to him.

 

Even if his percentage was a staggering 50% of the final sale price, he was unwilling to keep what would have been a long term customer for $7.50-10.

 

Wenson...

Ok, I misread what you meant by the $10.

But I still don't get what your beef with Spencer is. Your FIRST post seemed to indicate that his refusal to negotiate on the page was not a 'big deal' and that you were more disturbed about what you perceived as an overcharge on the shipping. Now your SECOND post indicates that your 'concern' was indeed that he was "unwilling to negotiate" a deal with you.

 

I know in most cases, Spencer does not have as much ability to 'negotiate' prices as you might think. Most of the prices are set by the artists with input from him. In a previous poster's situation, it was a cover and presumably something the artist was willing to make a deal on. In your situation, perhaps the artist had already told Spencer the prices were firm or as Hari noted on a lower priced item there is less room to move? Maybe they were more confident that an Ultimate Spidey $150-180 page would be quicker and easier to sell than say a $1000 cover so they didn't have to make a deal?

 

I'm not sure what you mean about his % being a 'staggering 50%.' Are you using 50% as an example of his sales commission? And that you mean Spencer should have covered that amount that you wanted as a discount out of his own commission? I don't know exactly his commission % is but trust me when I tell you that there is NO WAY his commission % even comes close to 50%. And if his commission is 50%, I'm selling my business tomorrow and buying into Spencers asap!

[wenson-migration]

Lambo...

 

I'm pretty sure that his commission isn't that high either. I was asking for 10-15 bucks off of the piece. I was only using the 50% as an example of how ridiculous I felt his refusal to negotiate was.

 

My point is for the little amount that he was going to lose on commission and the small amount the artist would lose on this piece would be more than made up in the long term on additional pieces I would be buying.

 

It's hard to know someone's intentions online, but when my brother first got me into collecting OA, I decided to only collect Ultimate Spider-Man pages. I really like the writing of Bendis and love Bagley's art. I expressed all of this to Mr. Beck.

 

I was going to try and get pages so that my collection included every character that appeared in the pages of Ultimate Spider-Man. To do that, I was obviously going to have to get pages that perhaps no one wanted, or that were difficult to sell due to the unappealing nature of page. And pay top dollar for the pages that everyone wanted.

 

I just don't understand how you can commit every dollar that you're ever going to spend on OA to one guy and still have him refuse to negotiate. Maybe I asked for a discount too soon into our commercial relationship, I don't know.

 

Anyways, to answer your question, I think. What bothered me is that there seems to be no room to be flexible in any part of any transaction with Spencer Beck.

 

I think it's worked out for the better anyways as now I'll be able to explore other artists and their styles. It gives me more room to decide on pages that I'll like for years to come.

[comicartfan]

Wenson,

I hear what you're saying about Spencer's refusal to budge on his prices. I used to deal with Spencer before I got heavy into the art. I would buy a page or two of Ult. Spider-man and would try and trade or neogitate or whatever ...and I was always furious that he didn't want to do it MY way......

 

I think you're taking this personal (by the sound of your tone, unless I am reading into it wrong) and you shouldn't. Spencer has a rep for being "difficult" and maybe it's deserved. If you promise to "only do biz with Spencer" and you tell him that, he's not thinking "Well, I owe this guy big time ! " - First, he's thinking." yeah.....right.... .... I am sure that on top of his dealing with your request, he probably gets bombarded with requests and strange ones at that....He also works a full time job and does this on the side....True, it's his choice, but I am sure it gets overwheleming at times. And he is after all, selling on behalf of the artist. I don't think he makes up prices per se. He can offer input like Lambo said, but utlitmately, it's the artists' work, thus it's there decision.

 

I think the best thing is to speak with your dollars....by taking them elsewhere. There are alot of other avenues in which you can get original art and by spreading it around (your OA budget), you'll make other contacts and build business relationships with other collectors and dealers....which will be a huge benefit. There are some great dealers out there....doesn't mean they all do things the way that I want them to.......each transaction is unique, to say the least. -

[*paull*]

Keep in mind that artist reps may not have much or any room to negotiate. They don't own the pages.

[comix4fun]

I'm pretty sure that his commission isn't that high either. I was asking for 10-15 bucks off of the piece. I was only using the 50% as an example of how ridiculous I felt his refusal to negotiate was.

 

 

If he were a dealer he might make 50% on a piece, but as a Rep he is probably hitting somewhere around 10%. And at that the prices are usually set by the artist, not the rep. Asking for 13% off, that the artist is not willing to give, is asking for Spencer to lose money on the piece.

 

Additionally that 10% has to cover the cost of his website, his time, materials, gas to drive the packages to the post office, etc etc. It is a thin margin all around, and maybe you should try to think of it in these terms before launching into an indictment of him or lock yourself into thinking his position arbitrary.

 

I just don't understand how you can commit every dollar that you're ever going to spend on OA to one guy and still have him refuse to negotiate. Maybe I asked for a discount too soon into our commercial relationship, I don't know.

 

I just think you are confusing him with a dealer...he's not a dealer...he's a rep. The artists set the rules, the prices, and the stance when it comes to discounts (or lack thereof).

 

As for your beef with shipping I think there are things that you might not realize that would make you feel better about the whole deal. Most dealers, reps, and some collectors (myself included) shell out hundreds to thousands of dollars every year on private insurance that covers are collections, our inventories and all of our shipments. Someone who inventories are many pages as Spencer must be spending thousands per year on this insurance, and you to look at the USPS label and think that was the end cost of shipping is wrong.

 

I don't think you can say 'spencer is making a few bucks off me in shipping" until you add in the cost of materials, storage, facilities, gas, insurance, and his time. I doubt he is making anything off of shipping when all is said and done.

 

But like you said you are new to art collecting, these are all things that the rest of us collectors learned over time. Probably the most important thing I have learned is to put myself in the other guy's shoes to see if his position is reasonable before I attempt to indict his practices publically.

 

Of course I have had years and years of positive dealings with Spencer, with nary a negative to speak of, which factors into my perspective and my experience.

 

Chris Caira

www.hulk-smash.com

[pkveronese]

I've had nothing but great dealings with Spencer. He's definitely one of the good guys.