Arrival dates on Pep 22, Pep 23, and Jackpot 4 confirm my thoughts all along...
2 2

103 posts in this topic

Okay guys, I just spoke with Paul Litch at CGC and he was far more receptive and willing to listen. He says he's seen the thread and that he will speak with Mark Haspel when he's available and they will discuss the making of any changes and that I should email him next week to find out what happens. I'll give the update next week.

 

edit/Thanks Roy for the advice.

 

No worries. This is relatively 'big' news and I'm sure they'll want to get it right. Haspel in particular is what I'd call a GA knowledge buff and I'd be surprised if he'd heard about it but wasn't interested in getting to the bottom of it.

 

Keep us posted!

Link to post
Share on other sites

It also says that same message at the end of Pep 24 which also has an LoC copyright earlier than Jackpot 4. I would also point out that at the last panel in Jackpot 4 it says to check out Archie "every month in Pep comics!"(if only one issue had been created at the time this would be a strange statement, no?) It appears that the creators and publishers were aware of both magazines releasing issues around the same time, so why not promote Archie in both mags, free advertising! They knew Jackpot would be on shelves throughout the winter, and that releasing Peps 2 months before their cover dates retailers would keep them on shelves longer.

 

The nail in the coffin on this issue to me though is Veronica appearing in Jackpot 5 exactly 3 months after Jackpot 4 in March. Pep 26 (exactly 3 months after Pep 23) is Veronica's undisputed 1st appearance and has a cover date of April. This proves beyond any doubt that the monthly Pep issues were released 2 months early, and the Quarterly Jackpot Comics were being released at the beginning of their respective seasons. That, coupled with this thread providing arrival dates on all these books confirming exactly this point should be more than sufficient.

Edited by MagicMasonry
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Member

Understood and the picture was not meant to be an end of the discussion, just an addition to it. Arrival dates written on books are not the most reliable source. It proves that someone had a pencil. Regardless the arrival dates are intriguing.

 

All of your points are very interesting and I look forward to discussing them with my colleagues here, Matt Nelson at CCS and I see from an email I got that Gemstone is involved as well. We'll reach out to them, too.

 

It will be very exciting if all of your (as a group) research and work pays off.

We'll talk next week.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Glad to hear it Paul. I (and I'm sure all of us) appreciate you taking the time to look into this matter to help preserve the historicity of these significant titles.

 

As to the arrival dates being in pencil, I agree. I wouldn't even consider them as evidence if it was only one or two, but with 7 or 8 books accounted for in this thread alone by reputable members, I feel it poses a strong argument. Granted, the photos in the OP are no longer available, I think it's very safe to say they were once there and were verified.

 

I look forward to hearing from you next week.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Might want to contact Mike Voiles as well who runs the exceptional dcindexes.com site.

From my understanding, he has researched the on stand dates for these comics from a number of sources, and could probably provide some great information.

I don't remember his forum name here (he is a member), but his e-mail from the web site is: mike@dcindexes.com

Link to post
Share on other sites

He has it as we believe:

Pep 22 - Oct 41

Pep 23 - Nov 41

Jackpot 4 and Pep 24 - Dec 41

Pep 25 - Jan 42

Pep 26 - Feb 42

Jackpot 5 and Pep 27 - Mar 42

 

It's a really cool site - if you get a chance check it out - it's helped me in all kinds of research.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Paul and everyone, another thing to consider, and I can't believe I totally forgot to point out. In the last panel of Pep 22 it says "There's another barrel of fun awaiting Archie and his pal Jughead in the next issue of Pep comics!" It makes no mention of Jackpot. If both magazines were using last panels to promote one another, and this 1st issue only mentions the next Pep comic, I think it's clear that Pep 23 was the next comic to be released. If Jackpot 4 was to be next then Pep 22 would have mentioned to look out for it, but it doesn't.

 

It is from this that it seems clear that the statement in the final panels was always being used to promote the NEXT issue. Hence Pep 23 AND Pep 24 (which both have copyright dates before Jackpot 4) promote Jackpot 4, calling it the NEW issue. Although it says "on sale now", I'm pretty sure they knew they were jumping the gun promoting it with Pep 23 on stands in November, which is fine since Pep 23 was expected to be on stands into January and could still be of use to promote J4 in December and January. Worst case scenario you have readers looking for a comic that isn't coming out for another month and they're all ready to buy it when it does. And maybe they pick up Jackpot 3 for the heck of it in the mean time. Same with Pep 24, which of course was only a few days early.

 

Meanwhile Jackpot 4 says to "check out Pep comics every month" which is of course a general statement since Jackpot would be on sale all winter long during which 3 more issues of Pep would be coming out, so it didn't specify a particular Pep issue to check out.

Edited by MagicMasonry
Link to post
Share on other sites
Okay guys, I just spoke with Paul Litch at CGC and he was far more receptive and willing to listen. He says he's seen the thread and that he will speak with Mark Haspel when he's available and they will discuss the making of any changes and that I should email him next week to find out what happens. I'll give the update next week.

 

edit/Thanks Roy for the advice.

 

No worries. This is relatively 'big' news and I'm sure they'll want to get it right. Haspel in particular is what I'd call a GA knowledge buff and I'd be surprised if he'd heard about it but wasn't interested in getting to the bottom of it.

 

Keep us posted!

 

Roy;

 

Not sure why this would be big news?

 

I just pulled out an old Overstreet from the mid 90's and it clearly states that Jackpot #4 was on sale in December 1941. Since comic books have always been distributed with cover dates 2 months in advance, it already clearly implies that Pep #22 with a cover date of December '41 must have been on sale in October of 1941 and Pep #23 with a cover date of January '42 must have been on sale in November of 1941.

 

Not sure why CGC would have to verify this with the folks at Gemstone since this has already been in the guide for the past couple of decades if not longer. They are correct in stating that pencilled in arrival dates are not definitive indicators. Especially since distribution to the newsstand were based upon the schedules of the local distributors and most likely not consistent across the country.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Okay guys, I just spoke with Paul Litch at CGC and he was far more receptive and willing to listen. He says he's seen the thread and that he will speak with Mark Haspel when he's available and they will discuss the making of any changes and that I should email him next week to find out what happens. I'll give the update next week.

 

edit/Thanks Roy for the advice.

 

No worries. This is relatively 'big' news and I'm sure they'll want to get it right. Haspel in particular is what I'd call a GA knowledge buff and I'd be surprised if he'd heard about it but wasn't interested in getting to the bottom of it.

 

Keep us posted!

 

Roy;

 

Not sure why this would be big news?

 

I just pulled out an old Overstreet from the mid 90's and it clearly states that Jackpot #4 was on sale in December 1941. Since comic books have always been distributed with cover dates 2 months in advance, it already clearly implies that Pep #22 with a cover date of December '41 must have been on sale in October of 1941 and Pep #23 with a cover date of January '42 must have been on sale in November of 1941.

 

Not sure why CGC would have to verify this with the folks at Gemstone since this has already been in the guide for the past couple of decades if not longer. They are correct in stating that pencilled in arrival dates are not definitive indicators. Especially since distribution to the newsstand were based upon the schedules of the local distributors and most likely not consistent across the country.

 

The guide states that J4 was "on sale" Dec '41. But they are incorrect in saying "same month as Pep 22." This is because the "on sale" date for Pep 22 is Oct as you pointed out. J4 however does not have a cover date of Dec. Instead it has a cover date of "Winter". This is why it was "on sale" in Dec. Likewise, Jackpot 5 is the 2nd appearance of Veronica (with a cover date Spring) and was on sale in March, one month after Pep 26 (1st Veronica, cover date April) which was of course on sale in February.

 

So if anyone thinks J4 would have been on sale in October, then that would put J5 on sale in January making it the 1st Veronica, which is of course absurd. And it's no mere coincidence that there no copies of J4 with arrival dates of Oct, or even Nov. for that matter. Yet, incidentally there are NUMEROUS random copies of all these titles mentioned with arrival dates that do support what I, Shield, and others have been saying.

Edited by MagicMasonry
Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep us posted on the cgc decision regarding to changing the notes to indicate that pep 23 has the 2nd appearance. And thanks for putting the effort into this.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Okay guys, I just spoke with Paul Litch at CGC and he was far more receptive and willing to listen. He says he's seen the thread and that he will speak with Mark Haspel when he's available and they will discuss the making of any changes and that I should email him next week to find out what happens. I'll give the update next week.

 

edit/Thanks Roy for the advice.

 

No worries. This is relatively 'big' news and I'm sure they'll want to get it right. Haspel in particular is what I'd call a GA knowledge buff and I'd be surprised if he'd heard about it but wasn't interested in getting to the bottom of it.

 

Keep us posted!

 

Roy;

 

Not sure why this would be big news?

 

I just pulled out an old Overstreet from the mid 90's and it clearly states that Jackpot #4 was on sale in December 1941. Since comic books have always been distributed with cover dates 2 months in advance, it already clearly implies that Pep #22 with a cover date of December '41 must have been on sale in October of 1941 and Pep #23 with a cover date of January '42 must have been on sale in November of 1941.

 

Not sure why CGC would have to verify this with the folks at Gemstone since this has already been in the guide for the past couple of decades if not longer. They are correct in stating that pencilled in arrival dates are not definitive indicators. Especially since distribution to the newsstand were based upon the schedules of the local distributors and most likely not consistent across the country.

 

The guide states that J4 was "on sale" Dec '41. But they are incorrect in saying "same month as Pep 22." This is because the "on sale" date for Pep 22 is Oct as you pointed out. J4 however does not have a cover date of Dec. Instead it has a cover date of "Winter". This is why it was "on sale" in Dec. Likewise, Jackpot 5 is the 2nd appearance of Veronica (with a cover date Spring) and was on sale in March, one month after Pep 26 (1st Veronica, cover date April) which was of course on sale in February.

 

 

In which edition of the OS guide or in what part of the current guide does it actually state "same month as Pep 22"? In the OS guide which I have, all it says is "also see Pep Comics #22" which is the same notation that it has always had. I see this as more of a reference notation for another early or previous appearance of the Archie character.

 

Similar to how the Flash SA run in OS states "see Showcase #4, 8, 13, 14" or how the Iron Man BA run states "also see Tales of Suspense #39", etc. This does not mean that Flash 105 came out at the same time as Showcase 4 or that Iron Man 1 came out at the same time as TOS 39.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

In which edition of the OS guide or in what part of the current guide does it actually state "same month as Pep 22"? In the OS guide which I have, all it says is "also see Pep Comics #22" which is the same notation that it has always had. I see this as more of a reference notation for another early or previous appearance of the Archie character.

 

Similar to how the Flash SA run in OS states "see Showcase #4, 8, 13, 14" or how the Iron Man BA run states "also see Tales of Suspense #39", etc. This does not mean that Flash 105 came out at the same time as Showcase 4 or that Iron Man 1 came out at the same time as TOS 39.

 

 

The current guide does not say it, and that's the only copy I have on me now. I'm actually not sure which issue started saying it, but all CGC'd copies of J4 that I've seen say "same month as Pep 22" and I'm fairly sure they got that from OS like Shield said in the opening post. Maybe we're both wrong though and it wasn't OS and it was just CGC that decided to note it. But I thought I could swear I remember seeing it in the OS guide at some point, anyone have older copies they can check?

 

edit/You know, now I'm thinking my memory is playing tricks on me. Maybe it was just CGC, like if they saw J4 say "(on sale 12/41-also see Pep comics 22)", then when they go to Pep 22 it says "12/41(also see Jackpot)". Which is how someone at CGC could have mixed up the on sale date of J4 with the indicia date of Pep 22 and drawing the inaccurate conclusion that they we're "same month".

 

All apologies to OS if this turns out to be the case!

Edited by MagicMasonry
Link to post
Share on other sites

Minor update. Apparently we're still just waiting on Bob and Jeff at Overstreet. They're of course busy with the new guide coming out. Hopefully they squeeze in a more detailed clarification into the new guide from all this.

 

'Cause not for nothing, but I'm going through the guide and I can't find a single instance where they specifically state the 'on sale' date for any other quarterly title. So why did they specify J4? You would think it was so people could distinguish what appearance it was since it was an early appearance that intermingled with another title. But why go to the trouble of noting the 'on sale' date and then not designate the exact appearance? Pretty strange when you consider the guide will list the 3rd, 4th and even 5th appearances of less significant characters like Enemy Ace or S.A. Spectre, but it won't designate a definitive 2nd appearance to one of the most important characters of all time, especially when it's not explicitly clear.

Edited by MagicMasonry
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

In which edition of the OS guide or in what part of the current guide does it actually state "same month as Pep 22"? In the OS guide which I have, all it says is "also see Pep Comics #22" which is the same notation that it has always had. I see this as more of a reference notation for another early or previous appearance of the Archie character.

 

Similar to how the Flash SA run in OS states "see Showcase #4, 8, 13, 14" or how the Iron Man BA run states "also see Tales of Suspense #39", etc. This does not mean that Flash 105 came out at the same time as Showcase 4 or that Iron Man 1 came out at the same time as TOS 39.

 

 

The current guide does not say it, and that's the only copy I have on me now. I'm actually not sure which issue started saying it, but all CGC'd copies of J4 that I've seen say "same month as Pep 22" and I'm fairly sure they got that from OS like Shield said in the opening post. Maybe we're both wrong though and it wasn't OS and it was just CGC that decided to note it. But I thought I could swear I remember seeing it in the OS guide at some point, anyone have older copies they can check?

 

edit/You know, now I'm thinking my memory is playing tricks on me. Maybe it was just CGC, like if they saw J4 say "(on sale 12/41-also see Pep comics 22)", then when they go to Pep 22 it says "12/41(also see Jackpot)". Which is how someone at CGC could have mixed up the on sale date of J4 with the indicia date of Pep 22 and drawing the inaccurate conclusion that they we're "same month".

 

All apologies to OS if this turns out to be the case!

 

Certainly, I've seen instances where a wrong CGC label notation appears to be the result of someone at CGC misinterpreting something in OS.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a very understandable mistake. Jackpot 4 says "new feature" on the cover and has an image of Archie taken from the first story. Logic would indicate it was published about the same time or even simultaneously. The cover date of 12/41 on pep 22 coincides with the Winter date on J4 (winter starts in december) Soit would make sense to conclude they appeared almost simultaneously.

 

Other data now makes it clear that was not correct. But it was a perfectly logical conclusion in th first place

Edited by bluechip
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
2 2