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Is Batman 227 the "key" Neal Adams Batman book to have?
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Started by sgt_jarhead_99-migration,

2,411 posts in this topic

JTLarsen

JTLarsen

Posted
Posted
Many people also overlook the importance of Neal's B&B run...... and many of those predate the 395...... the 85 has the first "new look" Green Arrow and establishes that character before the launching of GL/GA 76...... GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

...while Neal had done several Batman covers by the time, his work in World's Finest 175 is probably his first attempt at an interior story with Batman :cloud9:

 

Yep. That's his first interior Batman. I think the B&B run mostly gets its due. But I also think that B&B plus the two World's Finest stories illustrate by contrast just how important it was to get Denny O'Neil doing with scripts what Adams was doing with the art. And we don't get that until Detective 395. So, yes, B&B run, very important--with 85 and, later, 93 as a seminal O'Neil/Adams story. The two World's Finest stories as Adams's first interior Batman.

 

Detective 395 doesn't represent as radical a leap as the initial Adams art does, but it is a significant leap beyond just the addition of Adams art.

 

Jonathan (a friend of atheism)

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Readcomix

Readcomix

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Thx Jtlarsen! You really expressed the the 395/76 analogy very well!

 

Jimbo, thx on Worlds Finest! I had thought B&B 79 was the first time Adams had drawn Bats, but WF precedes it (and one gets a Tec 225 Martian Manhunter intro reprint).

 

This thread also turned me onto Batman #217, which I had been overlooking.

 

Does anyone think I'm off in calling the Muertos in Tec 395 a ras al ghul prototype?

 

Bottom line, there's still untapped potential value in that era of Batman books, in the context of their role in the character and his importance today. But if I have to bet on just one book to emerge big time from the pack, I take 395 for the first Adams/O'Neil pairing on the character, a seeming prototype for the biggest Batman villain intro'ed in the bronze era, and its relative elusiveness in high grade.

 

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JTLarsen

JTLarsen

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Thx Jtlarsen! You really expressed the the 395/76 analogy very well!

 

Jimbo, thx on Worlds Finest! I had thought B&B 79 was the first time Adams had drawn Bats, but WF precedes it (and one gets a Tec 225 Martian Manhunter intro reprint).

 

This thread also turned me onto Batman #217, which I had been overlooking.

 

Does anyone think I'm off in calling the Muertos in Tec 395 a ras al ghul prototype?

 

Bottom line, there's still untapped potential value in that era of Batman books, in the context of their role in the character and his importance today. But if I have to bet on just one book to emerge big time from the pack, I take 395 for the first Adams/O'Neil pairing on the character, a seeming prototype for the biggest Batman villain intro'ed in the bronze era, and its relative elusiveness in high grade.

 

Yes to all of this -- though we recently saw Detective 411 enjoy a much-deserved, much-delayed pop. I don't think you're nuts with the immortality connection to R'as, though I do think that debatable aspect will remain overshadowed by the O'Neil/Adams teaming. And, yes, I think virtually all of the Adams books still have considerable room for growth and some will still "pop" as people dig into the run more. Heck, the League of Assassins is getting a lot of play thanks to the movies and Legends of Tomorrow...

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Brian48

Brian48

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Adams was interviewed on Kevin Smith's podcast a couple of years ago. On the topic of Ras, Adams said he was something completely new. They wanted to do something different at the time and never tried before. I don't get the sense that any of the character traits were borrowed from the Muertos character in 'Tec 395.

 

 

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Martin Sinescu

Martin Sinescu

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Yeah, I kinda felt like the baddies in "Waiting Graves" weren't anything more than the archetypal dark/mystical foreigner that you see throughout literature and not really a template for Ra's (again, dark/mystical foreigner). Yesterday I searched for interviews with Denny where he might have mentioned it, but got lost down that rabbit hole and never posted. I did find an interview where he pretty definitively stated that 'Tec 395 was meant to be a pronounced shift for Batman.... but now I can't find it.

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Readcomix

Readcomix

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Maybe I'm stretching it to call the Muertos a Ras prototype then, but it was O'Neil and Adams coming out of the gate playing with a vampiric-looking character with a source of immortality (garden bed vs Lazaurus Pit), so it shows them playing with a germ that would grow into a major storyline soon enough....It's certainly not TTA#27 to #35, but its interesting in the way that the Challengers are in light of the first 2 issues of FF (non-costumed hero quartet; FF with similar pre-power skill sets) or the way "Thor" is portrayed by Kirby in DC's Tales of the Unexpected #16.

 

Looks to me that, unconsciously, they may have been evolving this idea of an immortal villain operating in a big, mysterious lair.

 

Sorry if I oversold the notion, but I'm still fascinated by their first story, a one-off, containing a seed of their Batman magnum opus.

 

Am I making more sense?

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Martin Sinescu

Martin Sinescu

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Haha, I love this issue, too, which is why I have a copy displayed by my desk at work! I look at it and, like you, see the beginnings of one of the greatest eras in Batman's history. I just think it's important to be thorough in understanding the genesis and evolution of any period by exploring first-hand accounts before we jump to incorporate theories as fact. It's the internet and, knowing the extended comic community as we do, it wouldn't be long before we started seeing the eBay listings declaring "Detective 395 - Prototype Ra's al Ghul! L@@K!!! Rare!!!".

 

Also, I would prefer an upgrade on my 8.5 without having to sell organs, so maybe there's a hint of personal agenda as well :devil:

 

Here's the interview with Denny I mentioned, too. If anyone can find the rest of the interview, please post. I couldn't (shrug)

 

BATMAN’S HOT-LINE: Denny O’Neil Talks Early Days in Gotham

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Brian48

Brian48

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I don't think you can ever compare the O'Neil/Adams Bat run with the one from GL/GA. Unlike GL/GA, the shift was not so abrupt with Batman. With Bats, it was very gradual, pre-dated O'Niel, and over a long period of time whereas GL/GA literally hit you in the face on day one with issue #76. There is no doubt with GL/GA when the new era started where as it's not so clear with Batman.

 

The Adams "look" started with various early covers and didn't really carry over into the stories until he started working on the B&B title with Bob Haney. The work he did on WF 175/176 can be somewhat ignored since Adams himself stated he took a very conservative approach to drawing those stories (and it shows) as he was eager for the work and wanted to move off titles like Jerry Lewis. It was with B&B that he started drawing a little differently and taking a couple of small steps to bring Bats back to the darker side. In the same interview with Kevin Smith, when he was first asked to take on the B&B title full time, he had requested two simple things which Bob Haney and Julie Schwartz agreed too, 1) All stories take place at night and 2) Batman only enters a room through a window and not a door. These simple rules went a LONG way.

 

After doing B&B for a few issues, Adams recounted a very good story where Schwartz grabbed him in a hallway one morning with a bunch of fan letters in his fist. To paraphrase what came next, Schwartz had asked why fans are saying the "true" Batman only appears in Brave & Bold? That eventually got Adams the nod to move over to the main Bat titles starting with Detective Comics. When O'Neil finally started collaborating with him, it went even further.

 

All this means is that fans have a lot choices for starting points if you're collecting or investing. I don't think there'll ever be a full agreement where, despite DC's decision to include 'Tec 395 in it's Millenium series. B&B 79 has been reprinted probably just as much if not more so than 'Tec 395. B&B 85 is all about the new Green Arrow. Batman just happens to be along for the ride for that one.

 

By the way, B&B 79 is an excellent, award winning story. It still holds up in my opinion and feels very modern considering the time in which it was published. This is my personal favorite "starting point" for the Adams era Bats.

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JTLarsen

JTLarsen

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I don't think you can ever compare the O'Neil/Adams Bat run with the one from GL/GA. Unlike GL/GA, the shift was not so abrupt with Batman. With Bats, it was very gradual, pre-dated O'Niel, and over a long period of time whereas GL/GA literally hit you in the face on day one with issue #76. There is no doubt with GL/GA when the new era started where as it's not so clear with Batman.

 

The Adams "look" started with various early covers and didn't really carry over into the stories until he started working on the B&B title with Bob Haney. The work he did on WF 175/176 can be somewhat ignored since Adams himself stated he took a very conservative approach to drawing those stories (and it shows) as he was eager for the work and wanted to move off titles like Jerry Lewis. It was with B&B that he started drawing a little differently and taking a couple of small steps to bring Bats back to the darker side. In the same interview with Kevin Smith, when he was first asked to take on the B&B title full time, he had requested two simple things which Bob Haney and Julie Schwartz agreed too, 1) All stories take place at night and 2) Batman only enters a room through a window and not a door. These simple rules went a LONG way.

 

After doing B&B for a few issues, Adams recounted a very good story where Schwartz grabbed him in a hallway one morning with a bunch of fan letters in his fist. To paraphrase what came next, Schwartz had asked why fans are saying the "true" Batman only appears in Brave & Bold? That eventually got Adams the nod to move over to the main Bat titles starting with Detective Comics. When O'Neil finally started collaborating with him, it went even further.

 

All this means is that fans have a lot choices for starting points if you're collecting or investing. I don't think there'll ever be a full agreement where, despite DC's decision to include 'Tec 395 in it's Millenium series. B&B 79 has been reprinted probably just as much if not more so than 'Tec 395. B&B 85 is all about the new Green Arrow. Batman just happens to be along for the ride for that one.

 

By the way, B&B 79 is an excellent, award winning story. It still holds up in my opinion and feels very modern considering the time in which it was published. This is my personal favorite "starting point" for the Adams era Bats.

 

Yup. Was aware of all of this. Growing up, however, Tec 395 was still considered a standout. So was Adams' first Batman, and his B&B run. But 395 represented another step in the dynamic. It paved the way, artistically, for things like the R'as saga, Batman 234, 237, 251, 255...stories that really made ideal use of Adams's skills.

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kevhtx

kevhtx

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I know its cliche, but I still love 251 probably the best. That comic was one of the ones that made me fall in love with comic covers.

 

Im hoping O'Neill and Adams are at a convention together some time this year. I need O'Neill on my 251 and have numerous that I want signed by both (GL/GA 76 being one).

 

I almost picked up 395 the other day for a good price. Im kicking myself now. I need to get it.

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Martin Sinescu

Martin Sinescu

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I'm never read #395. I'm told the colors are better in the original comics rather then the TPB stuff so that's the way I'm headed. Hopefully find a 395 at that Yorba Linda con coming up in California 1/17

 

I'll say this while running away in random zig-zags to avoid the tomatoes: There are differences in the coloring, but, to me, the changes have been blown way out of proportion. It's just got a bit more of a modern coloring aesthetic in that there's finer gradations in the colors and the palette has been adjusted a bit, presumably with a much broader selection of tones available. It looks a little more polished, less "raw". I know some people go panel by panel and, yes, if you want to be a purist, maybe there is some grievous injustice being done like colorizing Casablanca or something, but it's really no big whoop. I whole-heartedly recommend the 3-volume Neal Adams set and it will definitely give you a feel for the evolution of the artist, writers and character. Also, it's not just Bats and 'Tec. The B&B team-up with Deadman which was mentioned previously is in there as well.

 

 

I know its cliche, but I still love 251 probably the best. That comic was one of the ones that made me fall in love with comic covers.

 

Im hoping O'Neill and Adams are at a convention together some time this year. I need O'Neill on my 251 and have numerous that I want signed by both (GL/GA 76 being one).

 

I just picked up a 9.4, FINALLY. It's been one of my major grail books. I always thought this book was undervalued until it 'sploded a few years ago. It really is one of the best single Batman issues and, to bring it back around to "what is the key Neal Adams book to own?", that would be my answer.

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Brian48

Brian48

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Bats 251 is extremely popular these days so I'm not surprised very few people are letting their copies go. It's definitely a key, but I view this more as a Joker Key and not so much a Batman one (or even an O'Neil/Adams one). Having Adams involved certainly helps though. This book is a very clear and (realistically attainable) starting point for most Joker fans.

 

I view Bats 251 like I do Spidey 129.

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