Okajima pedigree 25 25

[path4play]

Here are a couple of questions.

Within this very thread the story unfolded that there were three original buyers of about 1,200 comics, split evenly between them. Of the three buyers, 1/3rd landed in the hands of Alan Bahr who made Certificates of Authenticity (COA).  The other 1/3rd were sold by Ron Murry to numerous different lucky buyers (like Robot Man) at Con's up and down the West Coast in 1995/1996.  The final 1/3rd presumably is held tightly by a mystery buyer in a hoard not yet released to the public.

Question 1:  From the books and lists posted here in the thread, I estimate from coded date gaps there were probably about 180 copies with the sigs/dates (camp copies - did that term also originate here?).  That is only 15% of the total pedigree.  So, why don't we see more date stamped post-camp books come up for sale?  Even if only Alan Bahr's COA date stamped copies were selling as Okajima's there still should be 3x the number on the market vs. camp copies.

Question 2: How many owners of these camp copies in particular have or had an Alan Bahr COA associated with them?

 

 

Edited February 16, 2019 by path4play

[Robot Man]

Whoa there Kemosabe... First of all Robot Man had no part in purchasing on these books other than the secondary market. No where near 1/3rd of the collection or even 1/3rd of either Alan or Ron's copies. The original purchasers were Alan Barr, Ron Murry and a "mystery buyer". Alan and Ron's part to the best of my knowledge have been for the most part probably sold off to eager collectors.

I was able to buy around 8 or 9 directly from Ron (camp copies) and about 5 from Alan myself. Over the years, I was able to purchase some here and there from other sources. I have no idea what has become of the "mystery buyer's" copies. Many might be privately held by him, might not. They seem to be spread all over the place and most are locked up in private collections.

Here is one of Alan's copies with COA. Oddly, it has no date, stamp or other markings at all on either the front or back. I bought 5 from him at a con, WonderCon I believe. All had these COAs. All but one had no markings at all.

With the passage of time and the fact they were no big deal at the time, I doubt we will ever get any kind of accurate count as to how many books total or how they were marked. I just consider it a gift from God whenever I am lucky enough to buy one. Sure wish I bought more when I had the chance...

[path4play]

1 hour ago, Robot Man said:

Whoa there Kemosabe... First of all Robot Man had no part in purchasing on these books other than the secondary market. No where near 1/3rd of the collection or even 1/3rd of either Alan or Ron's copies. The original purchasers were Alan Barr, Ron Murry and a "mystery buyer". Alan and Ron's part to the best of my knowledge have been for the most part probably sold off to eager collectors.

I was able to buy around 8 or 9 directly from Ron (camp copies) and about 5 from Alan myself. Over the years, I was able to purchase some here and there from other sources. I have no idea what has become of the "mystery buyer's" copies. Many might be privately held by him, might not. They seem to be spread all over the place and most are locked up in private collections.

Here is one of Alan's copies with COA. Oddly, it has no date, stamp or other markings at all on either the front or back. I bought 5 from him at a con, WonderCon I believe. All had these COAs. All but one had no markings at all.

With the passage of time and the fact they were no big deal at the time, I doubt we will ever get any kind of accurate count as to how many books total or how they were marked. I just consider it a gift from God whenever I am lucky enough to buy one. Sure wish I bought more when I had the chance...

 

 

 

I changed the wording a bit in my original post to clarify Robot Man, I knew you bought a few on secondary market direct from Ron, and I was teasing a little bit.  Heck you probably passed over while scanning through those long boxes a couple of the ones that made it in my collection now.  If I get a time machine it may be my second stop (after I grab a couple of Action #1s off the rack of course).

There is some new information in your post.  You mention that four of the five post camp books you bought from Alan with COA had no markings at all, no date stamp, nothing!  I don't believe its been mentioned that some (or even possibly a majority) were unmarked!  That would mean a great many of the post camp books from Ron's group will be and are just lost.  Kudo's to Ron for doing the COA - was he also instrumental in getting the Pedigree recognized by CGC?

One can imagine one day mystery buyer's copies suddenly appearing for auction at HA or ComicConnect, or perhaps a repeat of the estate sale like the original in 1995.

Edited February 16, 2019 by path4play

[MrBedrock]

I bought this Okajima already graded through a ComicLink auction about ten years ago. No mention of Okajima on the slab or in the auction listing...

 

[skypinkblu]

39 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

I bought this Okajima already graded through a ComicLink auction about ten years ago. No mention of Okajima on the slab or in the auction listing...

 

It's beautiful, but I am totally lost on how anyone not as well versed as you would know unmarked book is an OKajima?  I wish you did more classes like the one you did on restoration detection. Most enjoyable class I remember taking and probably one of the few "classes" I remember taking:)

Maybe we could have an "ask Bedrock" thread to match GAtor's.

[SushiX]

1 minute ago, skypinkblu said:

It's beautiful, but I am totally lost on how anyone not as well versed as you would know unmarked book is an OKajima?  I wish you did more classes like the one you did on restoration detection. Most enjoyable class I remember taking and probably one of the few "classes" I remember taking:)

Maybe we could have an "ask Bedrock" thread to match GAtor's.

mr.bedrock did classes? I would definitely join that class for sure!!!

[skypinkblu]

On 2/13/2019 at 2:14 PM, entalmighty1 said:

My early camp book looks like a "g" as well.   

 

But the "a's" on your copy match the ones on mine very closely. Note that these "a" are connected to the other letters and part of a flow where someone does not pick up their pen to start another letter.  The "a" on the #25 starts at the top and there is a break between letters (the person ended after the first 2 and started again with the "a". 

I'm still thinking there might have been different people signing the books. 

[skypinkblu]

3 minutes ago, SushiX said:

mr.bedrock did classes? I would definitely join that class for sure!!!

He might have done more, but I only went to one. He and Matt Nelson gave a class on restoration detection one year at the Chicago Con, fabulous job by both of them.

[MrBedrock]

45 minutes ago, skypinkblu said:

It's beautiful, but I am totally lost on how anyone not as well versed as you would know unmarked book is an OKajima?  I wish you did more classes like the one you did on restoration detection. Most enjoyable class I remember taking and probably one of the few "classes" I remember taking:)

Maybe we could have an "ask Bedrock" thread to match GAtor's.

The Thrilling is coded. If you look to the left of the "T" there is written an F over an 8 over a 12. That is some kind of distributors coding that is consistent with the later Okajimas. I didn't notice it when I was bidding (the ComicLink images were pretty small then) but it was pretty obvious when I got my hands on it. I got confirmation here from some boardies who were a little more versed in the codes.

[entalmighty1]

2 hours ago, skypinkblu said:

He might have done more, but I only went to one. He and Matt Nelson gave a class on restoration detection one year at the Chicago Con, fabulous job by both of them.

 

Man, I would pay for something like that.  @MrBedrock, should your name be Professor Bedrock?

[miraclemet]

On 2/12/2019 at 4:00 PM, skypinkblu said:

 

The handwriting is absolutely different (and I've had to testify in court on handwriting), but a bigger clue would be that they didn't even spell it correctly. That looks like a "g" not a "j". If it were not for that, I'd wonder if it was just a different person in the store writing on it. In any case, that's a lot of money for such a raw low grade book.

 

 

to me the fact that the k and a arent connected is a big red flag.

and while there are some lower grade issues in the pedigree they are usually due to defects associated with storage not defects due to reading...

the sensation 25 looks like it was read repeatedly and roughly... not wear you see in Okajimas 

[miraclemet]

3 hours ago, skypinkblu said:

It's beautiful, but I am totally lost on how anyone not as well versed as you would know unmarked book is an OKajima?  I wish you did more classes like the one you did on restoration detection. Most enjoyable class I remember taking and probably one of the few "classes" I remember taking:)

Maybe we could have an "ask Bedrock" thread to match GAtor's.

this distributor mark is the give away for the later post camp era (theres also an earlier post camp era with a different distributon style mark)

[MrBedrock]

1 hour ago, entalmighty1 said:

 

Man, I would pay for something like that.  @MrBedrock, should your name be Professor Bedrock?

Would you pay in comics of my choice? 

[miraclemet]

On 2/15/2019 at 12:46 PM, telerites said:

Probably a stupid question but are we sure it was same person who penned the Okajima on the camp-coded books?  If not, could that be why the variation in handwriting?

the vast majority (99%) have the same handwriting. 

Likliest case is there may be a few fakes out there (ie the Sensation 25 as a posibility)

another possibility may be the occasional bad pen may have mucked up her signature. 

but there is far to much consistency across the signatures to say that maybe multiple people were writing the name, date and codes at the top of the camp era books.

[miraclemet]

On 2/15/2019 at 6:28 PM, path4play said:

Here are a couple of questions.

Within this very thread the story unfolded that there were three original buyers of about 1,200 comics, split evenly between them. Of the three buyers, 1/3rd landed in the hands of Alan Bahr who made Certificates of Authenticity (COA).  The other 1/3rd were sold by Ron Murry to numerous different lucky buyers (like Robot Man) at Con's up and down the West Coast in 1995/1996.  The final 1/3rd presumably is held tightly by a mystery buyer in a hoard not yet released to the public.

Question 1:  From the books and lists posted here in the thread, I estimate from coded date gaps there were probably about 180 copies with the sigs/dates (camp copies - did that term also originate here?).  That is only 15% of the total pedigree.  So, why don't we see more date stamped post-camp books come up for sale?  Even if only Alan Bahr's COA date stamped copies were selling as Okajima's there still should be 3x the number on the market vs. camp copies.

Question 2: How many owners of these camp copies in particular have or had an Alan Bahr COA associated with them?

 

 

Ok here are some answers. I've got the collection at 1100ish (maybe it got up to 1200. 

3 original buyers, none of whom were Alan Bahr. One of the three original buyers sold the majority of his original purchase (253 copies to be exact, followed by another 87 the following month for a total of 340) to Alan Bahr the same year as the original purchase. Alan picked up 29 more books from the 2nd original buyer (a paper dealer who frequented the Shrein convention). The paper dealer had already sold most of his share to various regulars of the convention. The third original buyer was another flea market dealer, but I dont think Alan got any books from him as the guy was a little unusual in his sales methods and he had sold them around California to various dealers and collectors but never allowed anyone to buy more than a few books. Ann additional 39 books were found by Alan at a  local comic store, which had purchased them from one of the original three buyers. 

 

So Alan then had 340+20+39, so 399 books in total. 

 

One thing Alan noticed was that his part of the collection (largely made from one of the original 3 buyers) was light on the early years of the collection (43-46) and heavier on the mid and late years ) 47-52 (at which point the collection dwindled in the final era 53-55). 

1. Its possible that the books were un-evenly distributed between the three buyers. They were bricked and wrapped, so they may have been "divvied" up still wrapped, or at least without consideration of one brick vs another, so one of the other two may have gotten more of the early books. 

2. Also his early books seemed to be in lesser grades than the ones he came across later in his searches, so did the original buyer just have bad luck or did one of the other dealers "pick" the better condition books? Is it possible that someone else picked books from the collection before the three way division at the estate sale? 

To the point of your numbers. 

The reason that there arent as many post-camp books coming up for sale is

1) they aren't valued as highly so there not the impetus to sell them or more importantly to find them. 

2) they are far more likely to be "undiscovered" in collections since their markings arent as blatant as the camp books and (besides the Bahr books) weren't sold with any certificates. These books were sold when pedigrees were still in flux in the market outside of the top line premium ones. And remember the Okajima collection is neither a) especially large, b)especially high grade or c)especially key filled (in fact I'd argue its one of the least key heavy pedigrees out there). And the camp hype only came along in the last 3 years, so these books had 20 years to get lost in collections. Odds are they are mixed in with peoples collections with no notation, and it's only as they come to market that people might notice the markings. As others have said you can come across a raw non-camp Okajima in auctions, ebay and occasionally at west coast shows because of these factors. 

And to answer your question about how many camp books have Bahr certificates: Based on his lists he had about 25 camp books from '44, another 8 from '43 and another 11 from '45 (not sure how the 43s and 45s were noted, I'd have to go through the list)

Edited February 24, 2019 by miraclemet

[skypinkblu]

4 hours ago, MrBedrock said:

The Thrilling is coded. If you look to the left of the "T" there is written an F over an 8 over a 12. That is some kind of distributors coding that is consistent with the later Okajimas. I didn't notice it when I was bidding (the ComicLink images were pretty small then) but it was pretty obvious when I got my hands on it. I got confirmation here from some boardies who were a little more versed in the codes.

Thank you, Richard! 

[skypinkblu]

1 hour ago, miraclemet said:

to me the fact that the k and a arent connected is a big red flag.

and while there are some lower grade issues in the pedigree they are usually due to defects associated with storage not defects due to reading...

the sensation 25 looks like it was read repeatedly and roughly... not wear you see in Okajimas 

Exactly, it's difficult for someone who connects their letters like most of the ones we see, to change to a space and starting the letter from the top, doing that  would be awkward. But the "m's" are also very different, there are sharper edges on the bottoms of the m on the 25 while the one on my book is more flowing and open. The "i" is different, too, the one on the #30 has a curve and a dot at the top, while the one on the 25 is straighter and has more of a dash, the direction is different and that's what important....and enough of that,  I feel like I'm back at work;) .

[path4play]

13 hours ago, miraclemet said:

Ok here are some answers. I've got the collection at 1100ish (maybe it got up to 1200. 

3 original buyers, none of whom were Alan Bahr. One of the three original buyers sold the majority of his original purchase (253 copies to be exact, followed by another 87 the following month for a total of 340) to Alan Bahr the same year as the original purchase. Alan picked up 29 more books from the 2nd original buyer (a paper dealer who frequented the Shrein convention). The paper dealer had already sold most of his share to various regulars of the convention. The third original buyer was another flea market dealer, but I dont think Alan got any books from him as the guy was a little unusual in his sales methods and he had sold them around California to various dealers and collectors but never allowed anyone to buy more than a few books. Ann additional 39 books were found by Alan at a  local comic store, which had purchased them from one of the original three buyers. 

 

So Alan then had 340+20+39, so 399 books in total. 

 

One thing Alan noticed was that his part of the collection (largely made from one of the original 3 buyers) was light on the early years of the collection (43-46) and heavier on the mid and late years ) 47-52 (at which point the collection dwindled in the final era 53-55). 

1. Its possible that the books were un-evenly distributed between the three buyers. They were bricked and wrapped, so they may have been "divvied" up still wrapped, or at least without consideration of one brick vs another, so one of the other two may have gotten more of the early books. 

2. Also his early books seemed to be in lesser grades than the ones he came across later in his searches, so did the original buyer just have bad luck or did one of the other dealers "pick" the better condition books? Is it possible that someone else picked books from the collection before the three way division at the estate sale? 

To the point of your numbers. 

The reason that there arent as many post-camp books coming up for sale is

1) they aren't valued as highly so there not the impetus to sell them or more importantly to find them. 

2) they are far more likely to be "undiscovered" in collections since their markings arent as blatant as the camp books and (besides the Bahr books) weren't sold with any certificates. These books were sold when pedigrees were still in flux in the market outside of the top line premium ones. And remember the Okajima collection is neither a) especially large, b)especially high grade or c)especially key filled (in fact I'd argue its one of the least key heavy pedigrees out there). And the camp hype only came along in the last 3 years, so these books had 20 years to get lost in collections. Odds are they are mixed in with peoples collections with no notation, and it's only as they come to market that people might notice the markings. As others have said you can come across a raw non-camp Okajima in auctions, ebay and occasionally at west coast shows because of these factors. 

And to answer your question about how many camp books have Bahr certificates: Based on his lists he had about 25 camp books from '44, another 8 from '43 and another 111 from '45 (not sure how the 43s and 45s were noted, I'd have to go through the list)

Thanks Miracle. I think this is the by far the most detail yet known.

 

[originalisbest]

On 2/16/2019 at 7:56 PM, miraclemet said:

this distributor mark is the give away for the later post camp era (theres also an earlier post camp era with a different distributon style mark)

As good a time as any to throw this out there -- here's my Space Detective #1, which I love, had it since '99. Any chance this marking could be that of a post-camp Okajima? Thanks for all opinions.

[path4play]