THE AMAZING FANTASY #15 CLUB
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1 hour ago, namisgr said:

I believe Roy would like everyone to conveniently forget this.

I am starting to think Roy must have come from an alternate Earth as he seemingly would like everyone to conveniently believe that standalone pressing has been around and widely done ever since the first comic book rolled off the press way back in 1933.  :screwy:  lol

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2 hours ago, lou_fine said:

I am starting to think Roy must have come from an alternate Earth as he seemingly would like everyone to conveniently believe that standalone pressing has been around and widely done ever since the first comic book rolled off the press way back in 1933.  :screwy:  lol

I stuck spine rolled comics under encyclopedias in the 70s to flatten them out!

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49 minutes ago, G.A.tor said:

I stuck spine rolled comics under encyclopedias in the 70s to flatten them out!

Any AF15s?  :wink:

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39 minutes ago, namisgr said:

Any AF15s?  :wink:

Not in the 70s. Maybe by the 80s!

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52 minutes ago, G.A.tor said:

Not in the 70s. Maybe by the 80s!

So Rick, how do dealers cope with pangs of sellers' remorse, after owning so many copies of this book over the years, at costs a tiny fraction of the current market value?  Do you not get the pangs, knowing that the proceeds of all your sales helped build and grow your business into the success it became?  Or do you still feel them just a little bit?

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8 minutes ago, namisgr said:

So Rick, how do dealers cope with pangs of sellers' remorse, after owning so many copies of this book over the years, at costs a tiny fraction of the current market value?  Do you not get the pangs, knowing that the proceeds of all your sales helped build and grow your business into the success it became?  Or do you still feel them just a little bit?

The dealer in me knows my job is to sell today at a determined profit , then wash, rinse repeat

cant say “what if”. 

The collector in me does day dream about if I hadn’t of sold this or that , but still have no regrets since that is the nature of our hobby 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, namisgr said:
21 hours ago, lou_fine said:

As I am sure you are fully aware and failing to point out though, not anywhere close to the extent that standalone pressing is being done to nowadays where it seems to almost be a prerequsite for a book prior to having it graded.  

Especially when standalone pressing was clearly recognized as restoration in those days.

 

Was this the only major time that standalone pressing was done because the everybody seems to keep coming up with this same one example to prove that pressing was also rampant back in the days prior to CGC, which was definitely NOT the case?  :makepoint:

I believe Roy would like everyone to conveniently forget this.

If X pressed 10 comics from a collection of 10,000 books, he "pressed the collection" is the spin despite it not holding true for 99.9% of the collection.  And even then, it's unusual for the day.  The Pacific Coast collection was more typical of the day, with none of it having been pressed before being put up for sale.  Since the advent of CGC, it's another thing entirely when, in contrast, the Twin Cities or Rocky Mountain pedigrees come to market with issues pressed by the hundreds.

The point of the conversation was never whether the entire Mass collection was pressed or not. You sent it in that direction.

The ENTIRE point of the conversation was whether pressing was a hidden art that CGC kept secret. And it wasn't. Books were being pressed by individuals before CGC even existed. I only mentioned Marnin because it was convenient and common knowledge but he wasn't the only person doing it. Others were as well.

6 hours ago, lou_fine said:
13 hours ago, VintageComics said:

The main point is that it was going to be a public service.

And I don't think it went on for 5 years but I could be wrong.

My bad, as usual you are once again correct as it was not 5 years as I had incorrectly stated: doh!

Year 1     2000

Year 2     2001

Year 3     2002

Year 4     2003

Year 5     2004

Year 6     2005

Looks like it was in actual fac,t 6 years before CGC retroactively announced to the collecting world that pressing was no longer considered to be restoration as everybody had thought at the time.  It was instead, really nothing more than "maximizing the potential of a book" and this was in fact, how CGC had always viewed it.   Opps, did we forget to inform everybody about this tiny little insignificant point.

I thought you were talking about the original in house pressing service. I thought you were saying THAT ran for 6 years.

I was specifically talking about the in house pressing service and that only ran for a year or two before they shut it down to my recollection.

CGC was not an authoritative standard. It's not like they had an obligation to educate everyone on their standards and send an announcement on pressing, preceded by trumpets.

To this day, they still don't publish their standards. (shrug)

6 hours ago, lou_fine said:

If standalone pressing was as common as you are now trying to make it out to be, why was there such an uproar on these boards here when it first came to light back in 2005?

There is a difference between 'common place' and 'hidden' as you are making it out to be.

It was commonplace to those who thought to do it.

Just like it was commonplace to look for miswraps among those who thought to do it.

But I personally didn't even recognize miswraps until I started hanging out with people who started talking about them. Then I started seeing them everywhere.

So pressing grew organically as a) word spread and b) as economics made it profitable to do so

And it was probably guarded closely by individuals who did it pre CGC because why share a way to make money? It's just bad business in ANY business.

6 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Similarly, why did it take Overstreet until the 2007 edition of the guide to move pressing out from his restoration definition in his glossary and give it its own separate definition as a direct result of what had taken place?

Why did it take until Dr. Martin Luther King for the population to realize that segregation was wrong?

Because when we are raised a certain way, sometimes the most obvious things are not obvious until we actually think about them objectively.

EVEN THOUGH MANY WERE IRONING/PRESSING UNDER ENCYCLOPEDIAS/TRYING TO FLATTEN THEIR BOOKS IN SOME WAY pressing was never restoration, no matter what Overstreet said. It was just conveniently lumped with everything else because 

b) it was a service performed with other restoration and

b) most people didn't think to press individual books

 

And why would they? Most comics were worthless junk 40-50 years ago when those Overstreet rules were written and it wasn't economically feasible.

 

And why is it that people conveniently raise some things from Overstreet but conveniently forget others?

Like in Overstreet the older the era, the greater the size of some defects are allowed. But they conveniently forget that when the same people argue that CGC should grade books of all eras the same? :screwy:

 

You can't pick your points and make them in a vacuum. Things changed over time and the reasons they changes are just as important as the changes themselves.

 

Pressing wasn't prominent because it wasn't economically feasible in the past. It's as simple as that. Everything else is just noise.

Edited by VintageComics

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6 hours ago, lou_fine said:

If standalone pressing was as common as you are now trying to make it out to be, why was there such an uproar on these boards here when it first came to light back in 2005?

For the same reason that someone realizes they could have sold a book for more.

Because money.

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6 hours ago, lou_fine said:

I am starting to think Roy must have come from an alternate Earth as he seemingly would like everyone to conveniently believe that standalone pressing has been around and widely done ever since the first comic book rolled off the press way back in 1933.  :screwy:  lol

Actually, every single comic book is heated and pressed during the printing process. :wink:

But no, you are taking the conversation in a different direction by trying to blame CGC for either suppressing the idea (even though the idea was prevalent before CGC) or blaming CGC for the proliferation of pressing (which is simply a product of economics - nothing more).

If anyone was suppressing the idea, it was individuals who didn't want to share a business advantage.

And CGC had no obligation to proactively announce anything. They were largely rejected by people - even dealers - in their first few years.

It wasn't until several years after they opened their doors that they got a foothold in the hobby (after the chat forums, after they started showing up in real numbers on eBay, after people started deferring to them in the market)

3 hours ago, G.A.tor said:

I stuck spine rolled comics under encyclopedias in the 70s to flatten them out! 

And I ironed my comics as a kid to flatten them out.

My parents were right, they always knew I'd turn out to be evil!

:cry:

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7 hours ago, G.A.tor said:

I stuck spine rolled comics under encyclopedias in the 70s to flatten them out!

The "A" encyclopedia was the best one. Fat and thick.

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11 hours ago, G.A.tor said:

I stuck spine rolled comics under encyclopedias in the 70s to flatten them out!

Especially when you have buyers like me even a few years ago who simply roll up their comics and stuff them in their suit pockets.  doh!

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1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

Especially when you have buyers like me even a few years ago who simply roll up their comics and stuff them in their suit pockets.  doh!

I still do. 

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7 hours ago, VintageComics said:
14 hours ago, lou_fine said:

I am starting to think Roy must have come from an alternate Earth as he seemingly would like everyone to conveniently believe that standalone pressing has been around and widely done ever since the first comic book rolled off the press way back in 1933.  :screwy:  lol

Actually, every single comic book is heated and pressed during the printing process. :wink:

But no, you are taking the conversation in a different direction by trying to blame CGC for either suppressing the idea (even though the idea was prevalent before CGC) or blaming CGC for the proliferation of pressing (which is simply a product of economics - nothing more).

If anyone was suppressing the idea, it was individuals who didn't want to share a business advantage.

And CGC had no obligation to proactively announce anything. They were largely rejected by people - even dealers - in their first few years.

Wow Roy, that's certainly an interesting angle and justification for changing the rules of the game and not letting anybody know.  :whatthe:

Really, it's nothing more than a simple case of economics and the fact that some less than honest dealers had done it before.  :censored:

A simple follow-up question for you then.............when did you start micro-trimming your books because this would also be simply a case of basic economics and the fact that some dealers had also done this before?  Especially since every single comic book had to be trimmed during the printing process and we all know how collectors value books with perfect sharp edges.  And as we all know, CGC does flagged trimmed books as clearly stated on their labels, but I would assume based upon your comments above, under no obligation to proactively announce anything about micro-trimming since it was also prevalent before CGC and a definite business advantage for anybody doing it.  (tsk)

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6 hours ago, peewee22 said:
14 hours ago, G.A.tor said:

I stuck spine rolled comics under encyclopedias in the 70s to flatten them out!

The "A" encyclopedia was the best one. Fat and thick.

You guys are weak. I used an entire stack of encyclopedias.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Wow Roy, that's certainly an interesting angle and justification for changing the rules of the game and not letting anybody know.  :whatthe:

Who exactly are you talking about?

Overstreet? They didn't change the rules. They clarified it. It was silly to have pressing notated as restoration because it isn't, and it was only notated as restoration because it was done in association with other restoration work.

CGC? CGC wasn't an authority back in 2000. They were rejected by most dealers. And since they havne't published their grading standards EVER you can't accuse them of changing any rules.

Like I said, nothing happens in a vacuum. why (it changed) is just as important as the what (changed).

4 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Really, it's nothing more than a simple case of economics and the fact that some less than honest dealers had done it before.  :censored:

Dealers are dishonest because they press books? :screwy:

Should I also declare when I pressed my books as a kid with an encyclopedia? Evil child that I was. 

Pressing is an innocuous, benign operation. It adds nothing to the book and removes nothing to the book. It's literally 'nothing'. The only reason it raises people's ire is because of the dollar values.

Let me give you a story. I picked up an original owner silver age collection where the books were stored raw, in very tall stacks in a very humid and warm climate (Hawaii).

Every single book was pressed flat because of the storage conditions.

Should I declare them pressed?

4 hours ago, lou_fine said:

A simple follow-up question for you then.............when did you start micro-trimming your books because this would also be simply a case of basic economics and the fact that some dealers had also done this before?  Especially since every single comic book had to be trimmed during the printing process and we all know how collectors value books with perfect sharp edges.  And as we all know, CGC does flagged trimmed books as clearly stated on their labels, but I would assume based upon your comments above, under no obligation to proactively announce anything about micro-trimming since it was also prevalent before CGC and a definite business advantage for anybody doing it.  (tsk)

First of all, please don't accuse me of trimming books.

2nd, drawing a comparison between trimming and pressing is a no-go.

Pressing DOES NOT quantitatively change the book. It's THE SAME BOOK.

Trimming DOES quantitatively change the book. It's NO LONGER THE SAME BOOK.

Very simple.
 

This conversation was had a zillion times over since this board started. The answers are alwasy teh same. Like it or not.

Edited by VintageComics

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3 hours ago, VintageComics said:

CGC? CGC wasn't an authority back in 2000. They were rejected by most dealers. And since they havne't published their grading standards EVER you can't accuse them of changing any rules.

Didn't CGC basically tried to leave the impression with the collecting base that they were grading by the standards of the day back then.  (shrug)   Like you said though and to which I fully agree with, they never ever did go into any of the specific details so that they could not  be held to anything per se.  (thumbsu

 

3 hours ago, VintageComics said:

Dealers are dishonest because they press books? :screwy:

Of course not in terms of the current grading regime and today's unpublished grading standards where it would be almost absurb for a submittor to not at least consider a pre-screen for pressing if they are planning to have their books graded.  By reading some of the threads here though, just make sure you don't send it to CCS because many of the boardies here makes it sounds as though you could get back damaged books in return.  :facepalm:

The comment I was making was referring back to the days before CGC whereby 

the comic book doctors were taking books apart and then putting them back together before selling them to an unsuspecting collecting base without any disclosure at all.  I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this point since you think all of that  stuff was good to go back in those days.  meh

 

3 hours ago, VintageComics said:

First of all, please don't accuse me of trimming books.

2nd, drawing a comparison between trimming and pressing is a no-go.

Definitely not accusing you of trimming because that's the kind of thing done by Dupchak and it clearly destorys the value of a book as it can be detected with virtual certainty.

I was referring more to micro-trimming which is something completely different and if done properly, cannot be detected with 100% certainty unless you have before and after scans of the book.  It's probably actually being done by some of the comic book doctors in today's marketplace, but something that we just can't detect when it's done properly.  Of course, this is just my personal opinion although CGC wants everybody to believe they can detect it 100% of the time.  hm  (shrug)

Actually, the only reason why I was comparing pressing and micro-trimming is that I thought your rationale to support pressing was rather silly.  Your 2 points for saying that pressing was alright was that:  1)  it was economically viable to do due to the increased value of books in today's marketplace; and  2) it was done in the past prior to CGC opening their doors.  Well, the exact same 2 factors would also apply to micro-trimming, but this does not make it a valid practice in the hobby.  Now, your current point about quantitative changes to the book is definitely a much more valid argument for pressing vis-a-vis micro-trimming and something which I could agree with.  (thumbsu

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Sorry for the digression, but back to the topic on hand:

ama12.647a.jpg

Anybody else here think the purchaser made an astute and very timely purchase here at $598K while the AF 15 market is a tad soft and this purchase will look like a steal once the heat of the market cycles back to the Spidey books?  hm

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

Sorry for the digression, but back to the topic on hand:

ama12.647a.jpg

Anybody else here think the purchaser made an astute and very timely purchase here at $598K while the AF 15 market is a tad soft and this purchase will look like a steal once the heat of the market cycles back to the Spidey books?  hm

I don't know. Out of my league, education, experience, knowledge. Out of my everything

Were the other CC sales of AF15 in the same auction "soft?":

5.0 - $33,500

4.0 - $24,111

2.0 - $14,001

There does seem to be a never ending supply of these books. And, yes, a seeming never ending demand.

Edited by NoMan

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Posted (edited)

I held my AF 15 for fifty years and considered selling it at various times when the economy was in the tank and I needed money. The first time would have brought about $80.00, a great figure because it would not motivate me to do it. Another recession hit around 1980 and again, the books were all out there for sale.  I can count a number more and after each one, the book spiked more. Since then, and never really having the mechanism to sell easily since I lived in the middle of nowhere and dealers were not all that common, I kept holding it and then forgetting about it as other ways of getting cash presented themselves. It wasn't really until I turned around as an old man and realized that no good could really come of keeping the whole collection. With the help of my son,and Bob Storms, we valued it out and I obtained an excellent price for the 5.0 I had.  It strikes me now, after over a year since that sale that the market indeed is flat and it is indeed true that the book simply keeps showing up, suggesting there are more of them than might be estimated.  While I can't speak at all for high grade books, I can see how many 4.5-5.5 books are on the market and the market is speaking by not investing in what may be an economic  glut.

 

$33.500 is a ton less than I got for my AF15  5.0 two years back if that's a suggestion that the market is strong. 

 

Maybe I'm dead wrong but people don't buy in a nervous economy. They preserve their capital waiting for value. We've been in an expansion now for over ten years but Spidey stalled about two years back for the most part in common stock. Mint will always pull a premium if dollars are valued as little as they seem to be.  My bet would be to wait to buy when the bubble bursts and not before.  

Edited by Glassman10

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33 minutes ago, Glassman10 said:

It strikes me now, after over a year since that sale that the market indeed is flat and it is indeed true that the book simply keeps showing up, suggesting there are more of them than might be estimated.  While I can't speak at all for high grade books, I can see how many 4.5-5.5 books are on the market and the market is speaking by not investing in what may be an economic  glut.

 

$33.500 is a ton less than I got for my AF15  5.0 two years back if that's a suggestion that the market is strong. 

 

Maybe I'm dead wrong but people don't buy in a nervous economy. They preserve their capital waiting for value. We've been in an expansion now for over ten years but Spidey stalled about two years back for the most part in common stock. Mint will always pull a premium if dollars are valued as little as they seem to be.  My bet would be to wait to buy when the bubble bursts and not before.  

Don't remember anything at all about the copy that your had sold as I assume it must have gone under the radar here.  maybe we need a bit of a reminder.  lol

Seriously though, the comic book market has always tended to move in cycles over time.  The Spidey market was definitely hot a couple of years ago and since that time, the heat seems to have move back to the Fantastic Four market which had been in the deep freeze for the longest while.  It will eventually cycle back to Spidey once the FF's and some of the other Marvel books does a little bit of catch up to Spidey's rocker like performance over the past few years.  hm  :taptaptap:

As for the nervous economy and collectors not buying right now.  Definitely not the case here if you look at some of the astounding prices that somce of the HTF GA books and classic covers are fetching in today's marketplace.  Needless to say, the records just keeps on coming for these types of books across the entire condition spectrum.  :whatthe:  (thumbsu

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