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[vodou]

17 minutes ago, ESeffinga said:

When I watched it I thought of Bronty.

[ESeffinga]

That wasn't a dig. 

The guys in the documentary totally made me think of early comic art collectors who were able to buy art cheap, and have now largely been priced out of the top tier, unless trading against "old money" to pick up long desired items that are crazy rare. Bronty's been talking for years about game art, and it's totally not my thing, but this gave me some insight into that world, and parallels I found interesting. Similar in many other ways with not 1-off items like vintage guitars and cars to some degree as well. I imagine all collectors have certain things that they get hung up about, so we can all relate on many levels.

 

[vodou]

1 hour ago, ESeffinga said:

That wasn't a dig. 

I know.  

[John E.]

On 8/22/2019 at 10:36 AM, ESeffinga said:

Funny, I watched that a week or so ago as well. I felt bad for the guy because of his Dad, and his reactions to him as an adult. That was a bummer.
The rest of it was interesting, and pretty much why since the 90s, I've thought of most things as manufactured collectibles.

 

 

Yeah what the Dad did was hard to hear. I put the Stu Stone at a year older than me so I have a lot of empathy for him. Back in '90/'91 I was around 11-12YO and have fond memories of my mom driving my little brother and me after school to the new baseball card shop that opened to buy ONE pack of Upper Deck each. It was so exciting to be in that store. It was family operated--Mom, Dad ran it, with their son who was 2 years younger than me hanging out behind the counter. They might have had other children, don't remember.

I remember the son was quite spoiled for being 9YO. I remember the parent would give this kid a box of Upper Deck to open all on his own. I could only afford a pack at a time and this kid would get a box? Imagine that. In one box he pulled one of those Nolan Ryan autos which was said to be worth $1500 in 1991 dollars. Now I imagine Stu at 12YO living that dream of "owning" a card shop--then it all just gets ripped away from him, including his dad. Man, how do you go on to live a relatively normal life after that?

About two years ago my older brother told me he met someone with close ties to the mom of our (formerly) local card shop. It had folded a very long time ago when the card and comic market crashed. From what I gathered from my brother's intel, her life and family had seen better times to say the least. Man, the dark side of the hobby and the American Dream that is either furtive or we refuse to see.

[delekkerste]

On 8/22/2019 at 1:12 PM, Jay Olie Espy said:

Yeah I watched it a few weeks ago. I was pleasantly surprised by it. It sure was filled with lots of nostalgia. Like many kids growing up in the 90s, my brothers and I got sucked into baseball card collecting naively thinking we were all going to be rich today. And the revelation about the Upper Deck Griffey is pretty infuriating. Yeah the comics things...as I told a amateur dealer last weekend...I don’t know who’s going to take these books off our hands in the future. 

I thought JOAT was pretty weak. Like 85% about him reconciling with his dad and 15% about the card market. 

If you thought the 90s card bubble was bad, you should see what's going on nowadays - people are gobbling up manufactured collectible cards like crazy these days; a Tom Brady card from 2000 sold for $400K earlier this year (and now it turns out it might have been trimmed!!) 

A few examples from just last week are posted in this thread , but are nowhere close to being the most egregious examples. These are, if anything, very TYPICAL examples of this idiocy that happens each and every week in the card market (start from my post where I link to "Monuments to Human Stupidity". 

[Bird]

2 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

I thought JOAT was pretty weak. Like 85% about him reconciling with his dad and 15% about the card market. 

If you thought the 90s card bubble was bad, you should see what's going on nowadays - people are gobbling up manufactured collectible cards like crazy these days; a Tom Brady card from 2000 sold for $400K earlier this year (and now it turns out it might have been trimmed!!) 

A few examples from just last week are posted in this thread , but are nowhere close to being the most egregious examples. These are, if anything, very TYPICAL examples of this idiocy that happens each and every week in the card market (start from my post where I link to "Monuments to Human Stupidity". 

I also thought it was weak. Not one I recommend really.

[vodou]

6 hours ago, delekkerste said:

I thought JOAT was pretty weak. Like 85% about him reconciling with his dad and 15% about the card market. 

I recommended it more on human interest and speaking to the human condition aspects (ride that bubble all the way to the top, baby!)

It certainly is not pro-hobby (any of them). Which is the point or at least my point

Now let's hear from the other side, how it's all just beginning and the true worldwide appreciation (and thus wealth for those top-ticking today) is yet to come...

Does anybody think that Fat Pig At The End isn't every third guy behind a table at a comic convention? Or every second guy standing in line to get something signed? (Or with a dealer's badge bought solely to wipe out Mignola's portfolio the second the show opens?)

But...he's...remorseful.

Edited August 25, 2019 by vodou
clarity

[John E.]

I was mildly interested in the film until Stu shows up to the old location of his shop. When we start realizing that Stu has some daddy issues he hasn’t come to terms with that’s when I really got sucked in. To me the human drama is what interested me, too.

We are all in this hobby for nostalgia. Collecting these artifacts from our childhood is supposed to relieve our stress, that “looking back on the better times of our past gives us hope for the future.” What happens, then, when pain is anchored to these artifacts? Is it nostalgia or trauma? And yet it’s through these artifacts, and Stu’s return to them, that Stu had his moment of catharsis with his dad. The film’s premise asks what happened to the card market, when really it’s about Stu asking what happened to his family. In other words, he’s investigating (or his producers are prodding) the collapse of two different but related things. That’s what I found interesting about the film. 

[J.Sid]

11 hours ago, delekkerste said:

If you thought the 90s card bubble was bad, you should see what's going on nowadays - people are gobbling up manufactured collectible cards like crazy these days; a Tom Brady card from 2000 sold for $400K earlier this year

WTF????

[vodou]

8 hours ago, Jay Olie Espy said:

Collecting these artifacts from our childhood is supposed to relieve our stress, that “looking back on the better times of our past gives us hope for the future.” What happens, then, when pain is anchored to these artifacts? Is it nostalgia or trauma?

There's so much human psychology to unpack regarding adults (re)collecting childhood trinkets. Of course at least half of all analysis will be so highly personal or just dead wrong, that much would have to be thrown out, but still...whenever I see something (seemingly) well-written (or directed) on the subject: I must read (view) it. Like every insufficiently_thoughtful_person here and on a million other fanboy boards...I'm still trying to figure out myself...while filling in the holes in my collection

In a nutshell: as kids when we encountered this stuff we were innocent, powerless, and at the mercy of those that had power over us (everyone!) Then we get older, achieve a few minor successes (at best), have some sex (finally!!) along with some money to show our 'success', thus we exert our power back into those nostalgia thing by buying the shiite out of it. But in doing so, we likely alienate that person that's letting us have sex with them. LOL. It is a strange, strange thing.

[delekkerste]

8 hours ago, J.Sid said:

WTF????

ESPN: Rare Tom Brady Rookie Card Sells for $400K at Auction

Now it's one of many cards that is under suspicion of trimming having possibly passed through the hands of a certain dealer - look at page 1 of this message board thread for details, and also the instances where trimming was detected (before/after photos of cards that got grade bumps).  It makes it look terrifyingly easy to micro-trim and upgrade cards; if these cards didn't have unique identifiers being part of limited edition runs, I wonder if they would have been caught.  Also makes you wonder how many harder-to-detect examples of trimming have passed through the hobby...probably countless by this point.  I occasionally dabble in the odd sports card (strictly small time and 100% nostalgia based), but, this has really killed my interest in participating further.  

[vodou]

1 hour ago, delekkerste said:

I occasionally dabble in the odd sports card (strictly small time and 100% nostalgia based), but, this has really killed my interest in participating further.  

The 'old' hobbies (coins, currency, stamps, cards, even comics) have been completely destroyed by unsavory types. I mean the 'fun' aspect as a casual fan: buy some stuff you like, sock it away, find out it's worth more than cover price in fifteen years.

Comic art is still new enough to be fun, except for the price part. (That's why the bottom end is being filled up with false collectibles.) But I don't think we should be surprised to see all the organized bad behavior drift over here eventually, in much worse ways than the lame-o production art and fake sketches we see on eBay. That's pure amateur hour, but the pro scammers partnering with the big corps to fleece the casual fan...we won't know about them until the raping is nearly done.

Edited August 26, 2019 by vodou
typo

[MasterChief]

On ‎8‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 2:02 AM, delekkerste said:

On ‎8‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 5:21 PM, J.Sid said:

WTF????

ESPN: Rare Tom Brady Rookie Card Sells for $400K at Auction

Now it's one of many cards that is under suspicion of trimming having possibly passed through the hands of a certain dealer - look at page 1 of this message board thread for details, and also the instances where trimming was detected (before/after photos of cards that got grade bumps).  It makes it look terrifyingly easy to micro-trim and upgrade cards; if these cards didn't have unique identifiers being part of limited edition runs, I wonder if they would have been caught.  Also makes you wonder how many harder-to-detect examples of trimming have passed through the hobby...probably countless by this point.  I occasionally dabble in the odd sports card (strictly small time and 100% nostalgia based), but, this has really killed my interest in participating further.  

Late to the discussion but ran across the below recently and thought I'd share. (BTW... I have a footlocker full of late 80s and 90s sports cards. Mostly unopened. When I heard about the Upper Deck revelation it was a real bummer.  ) 

 

[Rick2you2]

On 8/26/2019 at 9:54 AM, vodou said:

The 'old' hobbies (coins, currency, stamps, cards, even comics) have been completely destroyed by unsavory types. I mean the 'fun' aspect as a casual fan: buy some stuff you like, sock it away, find out it's worth more than cover price in fifteen years.

Comic art is still new enough to be fun, except for the price part. (That's why the bottom end is being filled up with false collectibles.) But I don't think we should be surprised to see all the organized bad behavior drift over here eventually, in much worse ways than the lame-o production art and fake sketches we see on eBay. That's pure amateur hour, but the pro scammers partnering with the big corps to fleece the casual fan...we won't know about them until the raping is nearly done.

I don’t particularly mind most of the price part because I simply won’t spend the kinds of dollars some of it demands. In my view, a lot of the newer art is very, very good, and can often be had at a low price. So why bother with 5 and 6 figure craziness? Spending serious money on anything is never fun. Making money is nice, but it really isn’t fun. 

---

[PhilipB2k17]

On 8/25/2019 at 10:13 PM, Jay Olie Espy said:

I was mildly interested in the film until Stu shows up to the old location of his shop. When we start realizing that Stu has some daddy issues he hasn’t come to terms with that’s when I really got sucked in. To me the human drama is what interested me, too.

We are all in this hobby for nostalgia. Collecting these artifacts from our childhood is supposed to relieve our stress, that “looking back on the better times of our past gives us hope for the future.” What happens, then, when pain is anchored to these artifacts? Is it nostalgia or trauma? And yet it’s through these artifacts, and Stu’s return to them, that Stu had his moment of catharsis with his dad. The film’s premise asks what happened to the card market, when really it’s about Stu asking what happened to his family. In other words, he’s investigating (or his producers are prodding) the collapse of two different but related things. That’s what I found interesting about the film. 

I watched that doc. Then, a few months later, I  watched Documentary Now’s mocking version of that style documentary, “Searching for Mr. Larsen,” and guffawed at how they nailed all the tropes of the genre. Documentary Now is brilliant, if you have seen any episodes. 

[grapeape]

On 11/28/2015 at 7:29 AM, vodou said:

Good list Eric. I've seen most of them, but a few new ones. I'll add that (for anybody) that doesn't have NF or something isn't streaming, you can often get the DVDs from your...local library. I love free, because I'm running out of space and if it sucks, I'm not personally invested in "it". (Along with I rarely watch anything good or bad more than once!)

 

From Eric's list I highly recommend:

 

Drew

Art of the Steal

Exit...

Man Who Stole...

Herb...

Jean-Michel...

 

And except for Drew they're all outside comic/illustration...if you don't dig expanding your horizons, suck it

Talking to Mike Mignola yesterday he got a great reaction from us when he complained humorously that he was the only one without a Netflix Show!!!

Theres a great Docu on Steve Rude mind blowing art and bittersweet due to the toll of depression and self inflicted problems Steve created for him and his family.

Rude Dude

Edited November 11, 2019 by grapeape

[delekkerste]

Just watched the 2017 documentary Chris Claremont's X-Men on Amazon Prime Video.  The production values are pretty low (pretty bare bones and there's some annoying cosplayers thrown in as visual aids), but, the content is actually pretty good.  Very in-depth interviews with Claremont, Louise Simonson, Ann Nocenti and Jim Shooter, along with shorter commentary from Rob Liefeld, the guy who wrote Marvel: The Untold Story and a few other comic book historians/scholars.  Yes, a lot of stuff will be old hat to many here, but, there's also some really good insights as well.  Claremont himself comes off as being extremely passionate and deadly serious about the work he did, which was nice for me to see, because the one time I met him a few years ago he was very aloof and dismissive. 

You can't help but feel for the guy when they get to the part where the changing tides at Marvel end up forcing Shooter out, then Louise, and then ultimately Claremont, as the artists (Liefeld on New Mutants and Lee on X-Men) gained the upper hand and, led by the despised Bob Harras and the new Ron Perelman-led regime at Marvel, the focus became all about the bottom line and any notions of creators being auteurs on Marvel titles, as Claremont had for much of his 17 years on the X-Men and related titles, went out the window.  Claremont says that he should have handled things better and not left in a huff, while Louise says that she understood the need to go into a more commercial direction at the time (though, of course, it would eventually get totally out of hand and turn into an epic bust and bankruptcy for the company).  

Anyway, it's not that long (70-odd minutes IIRC) and worth checking out if you're a fan of the title.  Being a big Paul Smith fan, I especially enjoyed hearing Claremont's thoughts about working with Smitty, some of which give tremendous insight into why the title became so popular around the time of this run.   

[Brian Peck]

45 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Just watched the 2017 documentary Chris Claremont's X-Men on Amazon Prime Video.  The production values are pretty low (pretty bare bones and there's some annoying cosplayers thrown in as visual aids), but, the content is actually pretty good.  Very in-depth interviews with Claremont, Louise Simonson, Ann Nocenti and Jim Shooter, along with shorter commentary from Rob Liefeld, the guy who wrote Marvel: The Untold Story and a few other comic book historians/scholars.  Yes, a lot of stuff will be old hat to many here, but, there's also some really good insights as well.  Claremont himself comes off as being extremely passionate and deadly serious about the work he did, which was nice for me to see, because the one time I met him a few years ago he was very aloof and dismissive. 

You can't help but feel for the guy when they get to the part where the changing tides at Marvel end up forcing Shooter out, then Louise, and then ultimately Claremont, as the artists (Liefeld on New Mutants and Lee on X-Men) gained the upper hand and, led by the despised Bob Harras and the new Ron Perelman-led regime at Marvel, the focus became all about the bottom line and any notions of creators being auteurs on Marvel titles, as Claremont had for much of his 17 years on the X-Men and related titles, went out the window.  Claremont says that he should have handled things better and not left in a huff, while Louise says that she understood the need to go into a more commercial direction at the time (though, of course, it would eventually get totally out of hand and turn into an epic bust and bankruptcy for the company).  

Anyway, it's not that long (70-odd minutes IIRC) and worth checking out if you're a fan of the title.  Being a big Paul Smith fan, I especially enjoyed hearing Claremont's thoughts about working with Smitty, some of which give tremendous insight into why the title became so popular around the time of this run.   

I enjoyed it but found some holes in it. While you can not cover everthing in regards to all the X-Men work he did. The didn't cover God Loves Man Kills which was disappointing. Would have loved to heard Brent Anderson and Neal Adams talk about the it. I think its Chris' best work.

[ESeffinga]

I saw that a while back as well. I found it to be great running in the background while doing other things. Enough there to it to make it worth a watch. Not going to keep anyone on the edge of their seat, but worth the time for folks that like to hear about the goings on in a company from voices that were there.

[vodou]

10 hours ago, Brian Peck said:

I enjoyed it but found some holes in it. While you can not cover everthing in regards to all the X-Men work he did. The didn't cover God Loves Man Kills which was disappointing. Would have loved to heard Brent Anderson and Neal Adams talk about the it. I think its Chris' best work.

Haven't watched yet. Any discussion of Sienkiewicz as fill-in on 159 and Annual 6?

Further, any discussion of Jim Sherman fill-in on 151 and Bob McLeod on 151/152?