STAR WARS : Episode VIII December 15, 2017
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8 hours ago, Foley said:

Any idea where the Sith rule of 2 will go from here with the death of Snoke? Has it been abandoned? Will Kylo train an apprentice? Is Snoke not really dead?

I am not convinced Snoke is a Sith.  Has it been mentioned anywhere (books, etc.) that he is?

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1 hour ago, rjrjr said:

I am not convinced Snoke is a Sith.  Has it been mentioned anywhere (books, etc.) that he is?

 It was specifically said that he was not. 

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14 hours ago, NewEnglandGothic said:

What strikes me a bizarre in this thread is how some folks keep claiming “The Force Awakens” is a rip-off off “Star Wars,” by regurgitating its plot about 38 years later. But, no one (that I saw) has even mentioned how much stuff George Lucas “borrowed” from Akira Kurosawa’s “The Hidden Fortress” from 1958 for “Star Wars” in the first place. I just saw the Criterion of this one about a month ago and was blown away how good it was and I am a Star Wars fan, that will probably look at the original in a different light now as (gasp) a rehash of that movie’s prime elements (two peasants who became droids, the scene wipes, the samurai/Jedi, the princess, etc.)

There's definitely some goodness in the Criterion Collection's remasters of the Kurosawa films.  :whee:Here's a couple of trailer mash-ups for anyone who may be unfamiliar with The Hidden Fortress:

 

 

Edited by The Shoveler
fixing my Yoda-like grammar

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Finally saw it yesterday - while it had some flaws (especially Kylo Ren's emo look) it was a much better movie than the Force Awakens IMO.  I enjoyed it quite a bit - maybe a bit less than Rogue One  

I really don't understand the hate that this movie is receiving - but everyone is entitled to their opinion. 

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10 hours ago, Chip Cataldo said:
12 hours ago, rjrjr said:

I am not convinced Snoke is a Sith.  Has it been mentioned anywhere (books, etc.) that he is?

 It was specifically said that he was not. 

The new versions of the Jedi and Sith need to stop with the abstinence and rules of 2 and start getting much, much busier.  :banana:  The Jedi and Sith died out because they weren't reproducing fast enough.  :blush:

Is there reason to believe there's some huge difference between the Empire and the First Order or that Snoke and the Knights of Ren are all that different from the Sith, or did Abrams just renamed all these things for the sake of renaming them?

Edited by fantastic_four

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19 hours ago, miraclemet said:
20 hours ago, Foley said:

Any idea where the Sith rule of 2 will go from here with the death of Snoke? Has it been abandoned? Will Kylo train an apprentice? Is Snoke not really dead?

Apparently in some of the Las Jedi press there is a biography of  Snoke and a reference to a second apprentice... Might have been cut from the movie...

It's this book:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Last_Jedi:_The_Visual_Dictionary

dk149hwxn5501.jpg

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15 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

The new versions of the Jedi and Sith need to stop with the abstinence and rules of 2 and start getting much, much busier.  :banana:  The Jedi and Sith died out because they weren't reproducing fast enough.  :blush:

Is there reason to believe there's some huge difference between the Empire and the First Order or that Snoke and the Knights of Ren are all that different from the Sith, or did Abrams just renamed all these things for the sake of renaming them?

Only the Sith abide by the Rule of 2.  The Jedi have no issue with it (and it was revealed that Luke took on several apprentices along with Ben).  The Sith Rule of 2 exists because the Sith were being slaughtered by the Jedi because they were too busy infighting and jockeying for power rather than focusing on destroying the Jedi.  Darth Bane, the sole survivor of the Jedi Extinction created the Rule of 2 for this exact reason.  However, the problem with The Last Jedi is that it seems that "Sith" and "Jedi" concepts are just being abandoned.  Kylo does not kill Snoke because he craves power or wants to overthrow Snoke etc, he does it because he cares for Rey.  Rey likewise has no Jedi training and embraces the Dark Side.  It's basically just become "super powers in space".

 

Yes there is a huge difference between the Empire and the First Order.  The Galactic Senate, which represented a huge chunk of the Galaxy, became the Empire.  The Empire, led by Palpatine, ruled and controlled the Galaxy.  Once Vader killed Palpatine the Empire began to collapse.  Some systems stayed loyal, some left, and a truce developed.  The "rebels" and the remnants of the Empire worked together to figure out a way forward.  The First Order is trying to destroy both groups and restore the Empire to what it was, a galactic totalitarian government.  

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On 1/1/2018 at 7:51 AM, NewEnglandGothic said:

What strikes me a bizarre in this thread is how some folks keep claiming “The Force Awakens” is a rip-off off “Star Wars,” by regurgitating its plot about 38 years later. But, no one (that I saw) has even mentioned how much stuff George Lucas “borrowed” from Akira Kurosawa’s “The Hidden Fortress” from 1958 for “Star Wars” in the first place. I just saw the Criterion of this one about a month ago and was blown away how good it was and I am a Star Wars fan, that will probably look at the original in a different light now as (gasp) a rehash of that movie’s prime elements (two peasants who became droids, the scene wipes, the samurai/Jedi, the princess, etc.)

^^

and explains why the first Star Wars was the best by a mile. Kind of reminds me of Roy Thomas's writing at Marvel. When he writes his own stuff he is a average comic book writer, but when he adapts Robert. E. Howard's Conan stuff he becomes one of the best comic book writers that ever lived.

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7 minutes ago, Vietnam67 said:

They should've never killed off Skywalker.

The Last Jedi is part 2 of a trilogy. Hopefully, SW #9 will reveal why Luke was killed and who Rey's true parents are. Will the ghost of Snoke battle the ghost of Yoda in episode 9?? :wishluck:

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1 hour ago, aardvark88 said:

The Last Jedi is part 2 of a trilogy. Hopefully, SW #9 will reveal why Luke was killed and who Rey's true parents are. Will the ghost of Snoke battle the ghost of Yoda in episode 9?? :wishluck:

I think we already learned who Rey's true parents are. Noone significant. Remember, noone cared who Luke's parents were until Jedi (well end of empire when it's revealed his father is Vader but you know what I mean). The whole point of this film is rebirth and that anyone can be a Jedi, you don't have to be related to space jesus (come on "the force" birthed Vader???). I always roll my eyes whenever someone says Lucas had this planned out from the beginning. He didn't. You see how the story drastically changes in empire, where it goes from being a story of a young kid plucked from obscurity to battle the forces of evil with the help of a morally ambiguous space pirate, and save the beautiful princess. Vader has no story in a new hope. He's just "the big bad". Then in empire everything changes, it becomes the story of Anikan Skywalker. From empire on, it's the story of his fall, and eventual redemption. This of course includes 1-3 as well. 7 8 and 9 are being set up the same way. The failure of a father (Han Solo) and father figure (Luke Skywalker) to raise their son (Ben/kylo Ren) correctly. His downfall and eventually his redemption.  This isn't Rey's story. It's kylo ren's story, in the same way 1-3 and 5/6 weren't Luke's story, they were Darth Vader's. Think about what we've seen from Rey. She's shown no growth, she has no "arc" she just exists as kylo ren's foil. Ren is the one with the tortured back story. 

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I'm just glad it's over. I'll take Kylo's and Disney's advice "let the past die. Kill it, if you have to" it will just save me a lot more money in the future that I can spend on comics (thumbsu

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14 minutes ago, jaybuck43 said:

 I always roll my eyes whenever someone says Lucas had this planned out from the beginning. He didn't.

Agreed.

For instance, we know that:

  • Lucas didn't decide that Luke & Leia were brother and sister until after Empire (hence their kiss in Empire, and that the first draft of Empire referenced a differently-named sister of Luke)
  • Despite Lucas's varying claims throughout the years, Vader wasn't intended to be Luke's father in Star Wars -- he didn't become Luke's father until the second draft of Empire
  • Lucas himself engaged in revisionist history -- both with the midichlorian BS in the prequels and in retroactively editing the Star Wars cantina scene so that Greedo shot first.

The point?

Contrary to the myth of some sort of "master narrative," the Star Wars films have *always* varied from one to the next.

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30 minutes ago, jaybuck43 said:

I always roll my eyes whenever someone says Lucas had this planned out from the beginning. He didn't. You see how the story drastically changes in empire, where it goes from being a story of a young kid plucked from obscurity to battle the forces of evil with the help of a morally ambiguous space pirate, and save the beautiful princess. Vader has no story in a new hope. He's just "the big bad".

I've never seen good evidence either way that Lucas did or didn't plan for Vader being Luke's father in Episode IV--I lean towards it being a retcon in Episode V, but only he really knows--but it's definitely not fair to say he had no story.  Obi-Wan tells us he was his pupil, which begs the question early in the film of why he went bad and casts him as far more complex than a purely evil character.

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Lucas himself engaged in revisionist history -- both with the midichlorian BS in the prequels

In what way is that revisionist?  He first used that term in an essay he wrote back in 1977 intended to establish guidelines for authors writing stories within the Star Wars universe.  He's claimed he originally intended to explain the concept in Episode IV, but only he knows if that's true.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Midi-chlorian/Legends

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I read the George Lucas biography that came out not that long ago and they had some good early story facts. It certainly appears that in the earliest form of the story Luke and Vader were not related and it does seem that it was still that way when the first film was finished.

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55 minutes ago, jaybuck43 said:

I think we already learned who Rey's true parents are. Noone significant. Remember, noone cared who Luke's parents were until Jedi (well end of empire when it's revealed his father is Vader but you know what I mean). The whole point of this film is rebirth and that anyone can be a Jedi, you don't have to be related to space jesus (come on "the force" birthed Vader???). I always roll my eyes whenever someone says Lucas had this planned out from the beginning. He didn't. You see how the story drastically changes in empire, where it goes from being a story of a young kid plucked from obscurity to battle the forces of evil with the help of a morally ambiguous space pirate, and save the beautiful princess. Vader has no story in a new hope. He's just "the big bad". Then in empire everything changes, it becomes the story of Anikan Skywalker. From empire on, it's the story of his fall, and eventual redemption. This of course includes 1-3 as well. 7 8 and 9 are being set up the same way. The failure of a father (Han Solo) and father figure (Luke Skywalker) to raise their son (Ben/kylo Ren) correctly. His downfall and eventually his redemption.  This isn't Rey's story. It's kylo ren's story, in the same way 1-3 and 5/6 weren't Luke's story, they were Darth Vader's. Think about what we've seen from Rey. She's shown no growth, she has no "arc" she just exists as kylo ren's foil. Ren is the one with the tortured back story. 

Ive often felt the same. That Lucas made Star Wars as a one shot with no intention of a trilogy. Now he may have had a whole set of stories to be told over 2-3 movies but he clearly made star wars with the intention of one and done (look at the big celebration at the end of new hope) or the kiss between luke and leai.

I hadn't thought of the Kylo Ren arc more important that Rey's. Part of the issue for me for this movie is that it doesn't sync correctly with the first. Maybe Abrams made errors in his set up of the first movie but I doubt that to be the case. He's a far more polished story teller than Johnson and Rey's arc may have been more important if not for the changes or course correction made in TLJ. It's very possible that Rey's parents initially (when first written) were of greater importance but it's evident after TLJ that the goal is to break away from the Jedi or anyone with super powers to be accessible to anyone and everyone.

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18 minutes ago, jsilverjanet said:

It's very possible that Rey's parents initially (when first written) were of greater importance but it's evident after TLJ that the goal is to break away from the Jedi or anyone with super powers to be accessible to anyone and everyone.

Or...still possible that Rey's lineage was a feint.

There's still an outside that she may, for example, still be a twin sister to Kylo Ren -- who was separated at birth / sent away exactly as Luke-Leia were.

Why?

1) Again, Kylo Ren's the one who told her she's nobody. No reason for us to believe him; in fact, more reason exists for him to be lying in that moment than not.

2) It would also explain why in The Force Awakens Leia inexplicably hugs Rey when at that point they've never met. It bugged me to no end that she hugged Rey -- a stranger -- rather than Chewbacca -- who was her ex-husband's best friend and with whom she shared a 40-year history. If Leia secretly knew she was her daughter -- then it begins to make sense.

I think it's a far stronger story choice for her to in fact be nobody and for the Force to be truly democratized again, but I don't believe we got a definitive answer either way in The Last Jedi.

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On 1/1/2018 at 6:51 AM, NewEnglandGothic said:

What strikes me a bizarre in this thread is how some folks keep claiming “The Force Awakens” is a rip-off off “Star Wars,” by regurgitating its plot about 38 years later. But, no one (that I saw) has even mentioned how much stuff George Lucas “borrowed” from Akira Kurosawa’s “The Hidden Fortress” from 1958 for “Star Wars” in the first place. I just saw the Criterion of this one about a month ago and was blown away how good it was and I am a Star Wars fan, that will probably look at the original in a different light now as (gasp) a rehash of that movie’s prime elements (two peasants who became droids, the scene wipes, the samurai/Jedi, the princess, etc.)

Oh, goodness, that was made mention of from the very beginning...from when Star Wars was first released. Lucas has always mentioned "Hidden Fortress", Flash Gordon Serials, another Kurosawa film Derso Uzala contributed a couple of scenes to Star Wars almost exactly. Then there are all the things taken directly from literature, mythology and various religious beliefs. 

Maybe it was mentioned so much in the 70's and 80's people discussing the films today assume everyone already knows how much was derivative and borrowed and cobbled together from all of Lucas' other influences. 

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