This Week In Your Plastic Crack, Action Figures and Toy Collection 26 26

[whisp]

6 minutes ago, Martin Sinescu said:

I guess you're specifically referencing the thickness, which is slightly thinner on the Jawa, but the photo and descriptions show that the cape colors are different. Seriously, though, let's not highjack the thread with this back and forth. I was just trying to explain that all the capes discolor like this and it's not just the VC Jawa, that's all.

Thickness and thatching on it.  Personally I would think that the thinner material would fade faster especially if it sat under sunlight.  Light could get thru it easier and deteriorate it faster.  Different colours as well fade differently and act differently.  I know of other toys were this is the case.  I even know of one case were light isn't even the factor in it but it wasn't vinyl but a form of plastic and if I had my guess styrene but unsure.  Know the vehicles were made of styrene.

Edited February 15, 2018 by whisp

[oakman29]

7 hours ago, comicwiz said:

That's a UKG - haven't seen many breached blister examples from them. Sorry to see that happen, although inherently faulty tamper evident case design with zero blister protection to offset undue shift/mishandling during transit is a concern with every toy grader. I'm convinced the "blister protector" some will offer for an additional cost does nothing to prevent breaches.

In addition to the stated concerns by @Buzzetta, there are a number of things you need to keep an eye out for with graded toys and even the companies themselves.

For the sake of brevity, always check when the item was graded. It is not uncommon for people to offload/dump graded toys that arrived damaged, or degraded during their ownership. It is also not uncommon for an item in high grade to experience blister yellowing, figure "frosting", or even limb/torso and cape discolouration. The more obvious are the white plastic figures which yellow or turn pink (i.e. Stormtroopers), and vinyl cape Jawas have been appearing in greater numbers with dark brown discolouration on the cape (see images below) that has a tendency to spread once it starts. I've seen this on Tusken Raiders and on the rare occassion with Ben Kenobi's too.

It is rather unfortunate that people lean on the assigned grade, and insist that the item is still the grade it was assigned after damage or degradation has occurred. It's not just figures - I've heard numerous people insisting their MISB graded vehicles or playsets are still sealed once the tape lifts because it's sealed inside the acrylic case. I guarantee in every instance that if these items are sent back in for grading, they will experience a grade drop.

I remember getting into heated arguments with people that tried to sell off their vinyl cape Jawa's immediately after they began exhibiting discolouration. In some instances, I would tell them they would experience 3 full grade drops, and some actually believe the grade wouldn't change at all. Below is one of the only instances that I've ever seen where a previously graded AFA 85 VC Jawa was regraded and it recieved an AFA 70 after regrade.  My suggestion: always ask for clear images, get sellers to disclose any/all defects on the blister, including any cracks, and always run a serial lookup to check how long ago it was graded. Anything older than 5 years should be carefully examined. If anyone here ever has any questions about toy grading, and or the companies themselves, please feel free to tag me.  AFA and UKG are the only reputable toy grading companies I would recommend, I would prudently avoid the rest.

 

Man, I love picking up a cool toy here and there, but that price to me seems insane.

[followtheleader]

3 hours ago, whisp said:

Picked these up awhile back ago.  Not really a Star Wars toy fan although like the movies.  Price was just to good to pass up.  First pic is complete or almost complete and 3rd pic is spredsheet of what is there.  Yellow is complete, green is need something and then white dont have at all..  2nd pic is doubles.

Very nice!

Patrick

[whisp]

This is the only Star Wars vehicle I own but its the only one I would actually would want to own.  Still nice and white.  Only sad part is the cockpit has one small broken gun on it.  Been trying to find a replacement part for it since I got it but to no avail.  Pretty sure if I remove the sticker in the cockpit very carefully and undo a screw in there that I could replace it.  I also should make a cardboard insert for inside of it to keep better shape of the box.

[whisp]

I admit I have a plastic crack addiction.  This is just my joe complete figures.

[whisp]

All those figures are stored in a box and in a dark place.  Two of the white figures yellowed a bit more, 3 figures o-rings broke on them since I last looked at them and Dr Mindbender cape that had the glued on cobra emblem had the glue deteriorate and the emblem is loose in the bag.  I have stored these in a cool, dry and dark environment and the stuff still falls apart.    This is why I just buy loose figures and don't worry about them on card.

[comicwiz]

11 hours ago, Buzzetta said:

@comicwiz

Joe, I was not aware of vinyl discoloration to the extent that I see on the Jawa.  I checked my vintage loose figures and have not seen any such discoloration on my Raider, Obi Wan, Leia or any of the others.  (I do not own a vinyl cape Jawa).  So here is my question.

Was the vinyl used for the Jawa of a make that it naturally degraded no matter the circumstances?

Are the sealed figures allowing for a toxic buildup inside that bubble that degrades the figure? 

 

I wonder if any materials released through the natural breakdown of the plastic is causing a harmful effect.  

I contacted the seller of that Jawa figure almost immediately when I saw the listing. He confided in me that it was an 85 — 90/85/85 and that he had sold it to a guy in the Middle East who asked him to resell for him and when he got it back he was shocked at how much had changed and explained to him that it had to be regraded so it was an accurate reflection of the figures current condition. After trying to understand how this occurred, he also explained that the Middle Eastern owner of the VCJ revealed he had no temperature control, no air flow, or dehumidifier where he had it stored. 

My feeling on this subject is that while this is an extreme case (I'm guessing this changed within a matter of just a few years since the person first bought it) is that drastic temperature shifts might be a trigger to the chemical breakdown we see happening with the cape. It may well be the off-gassing of the blister or even the PVC plastic that intiate the chemical reaction, but we can't exclude the possibility that some of this is related to the fact these are heat sealed to an acidic cardboard cardback.

There's a good chance that the lack of air flow inside the blister is a culprit (acting like a convection oven in high temperatures), but I believe this is further complicated by them being sealed in an acrylic case (see picture below). Some of the graded cases have a breather hole, but the problem I think is trying to figure out when this chemical breakdown starts, and the world of difference it could make when you notice it and catch it early.  The other is avoiding some of the environmental influences that cause it altogether - where is it coming from (temp/climate), and how is it being shipped?  Consider this happened with slabs being shipped from Texas, and if depressed melting point can occur with slabs, the possibility remains that far worse can go on when toys still sealed in their original packaging are shipped from a warm climate.

 

Edited February 15, 2018 by comicwiz

[comicwiz]

9 hours ago, oakman29 said:

Man, I love picking up a cool toy here and there, but that price to me seems insane.

It would have been worth at least double that amount as an AFA 85.  So the owner probably lost about 6-7K on that figure when it dropped from an 85, and got regraded a 70 due to the discolouration of the cape.

Edited February 15, 2018 by comicwiz

[Buzzetta]

1 hour ago, comicwiz said:

I contacted the seller of that Jawa figure almost immediately when I saw the listing. He confided in me that it was an 85 — 90/85/85 and that he had sold it to a guy in the Middle East who asked him to resell for him and when he got it back he was shocked at how much had changed and explained to him that it had to be regraded so it was an accurate reflection of the figures current condition. After trying to understand how this occurred, he also explained that the Middle Eastern owner of the VCJ revealed he had no temperature control, no air flow, or dehumidifier where he had it stored. 

My feeling on this subject is that while this is an extreme case (I'm guessing this changed within a matter of just a few years since the person first bought it) is that drastic temperature shifts might be a trigger to the chemical breakdown we see happening with the cape. It may well be the off-gassing of the blister or even the PVC plastic that intiate the chemical reaction, but we can't exclude the possibility that some of this is related to the fact these are heat sealed to an acidic cardboard cardback.

There's a good chance that the lack of air flow inside the blister is a culprit (acting like a convection oven in high temperatures), but I believe this is further complicated by them being sealed in an acrylic case (see picture below). Some of the graded cases have a breather hole, but the problem I think is trying to figure out when this chemical breakdown starts, and the world of difference it could make when you notice it and catch it early.  The other is avoiding some of the environmental influences that cause it altogether - where is it coming from (temp/climate), and how is it being shipped?  Consider this happened with slabs being shipped from Texas, and if depressed melting point can occur with slabs, the possibility remains that far worse can go on when toys still sealed in their original packaging are shipped from a warm climate.

 

Interesting... 

So  just throwing this out there... if the off gassing from the plastic, cardback, or the interior of the blister is the actual culprit causing an issue for the long term health of the figure, what a small pinhole or two (the actual size of a sewing needle or something similar) in a discreet location alleviate this issue?   Would a grade drop be significant ?   

I am so nervous with carded Kenner figures.  I sold mine off years ago and sometimes when I see the current prices I want to kick myself.  However, then I see all of the issues that these carded figures have experienced or can experience and I feel that for all I know, my stormtroopers could have yellowed, some of the blister packs could be brittle to the point that the figure burst off the card.  I sold the last few except for the three I still hold once I saw that my Jedi Luke was yellowing and the bubble on my POTF2 Han Carbonite started to crack. 

 

[Buzzetta]

I am getting the itch to buy something... I hate all of you. 

[comicwiz]

59 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

Interesting... 

So  just throwing this out there... if the off gassing from the plastic, cardback, or the interior of the blister is the actual culprit causing an issue for the long term health of the figure, what a small pinhole or two (the actual size of a sewing needle or something similar) in a discreet location alleviate this issue?   Would a grade drop be significant ?   

I am so nervous with carded Kenner figures.  I sold mine off years ago and sometimes when I see the current prices I want to kick myself.  However, then I see all of the issues that these carded figures have experienced or can experience and I feel that for all I know, my stormtroopers could have yellowed, some of the blister packs could be brittle to the point that the figure burst off the card.  I sold the last few except for the three I still hold once I saw that my Jedi Luke was yellowing and the bubble on my POTF2 Han Carbonite started to crack. 

 

I think the test kitchen sample for the "hole" theory are the Made in Mexico (MIM) MOC's. While not all are Lili Ledy (which is why I refer to them as MIM), they were manufactured with a small hole in the back of the cardback, which is usually located in an area where the blister is located on the front side. That little hole poke seems to be an interesting sample size in surviving populations as you don't commonly see MIM MOC's exhibiting some of the blister yellowing that is otherwise quite common with Kenner US Return of the Jedi MOC's. I'm not sure the collecting community is yet ready to look seriously at these "hacks" or tips because ultimately it's a hole being poked in something that didn't belong there, and I'd imagine it would experience a grade deduction, at minimum not allowing an MOC to score higher than 70, with examples that are otherwise perfect scoring no higher than a 75. I'm not sure the verdict is out yet whether allowing blisters to breathe is a fullproof method. Consider also that early factory heat sealing of blisters with stems (prevalent in the first 21 waves) that you commonly find a little lifting or seperation at the very bottom of 12/21 Backs, that were not necessarily caused by mishandling, but in some cases, are an example of poor seal at that area where the blister should have bonded to the cardback. I have also seen this on early mock-ups, and first series diecast ships. This is also an opening that has been commonly used to test whether a Luke/Ben/Vader saber is double-telescoping. Believe it or not, I once bought an MOC (ESB 48 Back Yoda) where the seller showed me a photo with what looked like a little bit of lint trapped inside the blister. When I asked him about it, he replied with a photo showing how the lint was removed. I was shocked to say the least, and asked him what he did, and he admitted he used that tiny opening under the stem of the blister to blow compressed air and "clean out the blister" of any debris.

My general feeling on this is there is a huge sample size of carded figures which are still worth pursuing, buying and collecting. You just need to be aware of the way these items have held up due to age, mishandling and/or tampering. It's hard to cover all your bases, but at the very least, you should always carefully scrutinize pieces, especially with the value gains some have experienced.

[Cocomonkey]

Reading the last 3-4 pages of this thread makes me realize I know absolutely nothing about action figure/toy collecting...

[comicwiz]

Below are just a few I've kept a record of over the past couple of years.  Note with the Vader, someone had asked for help 4 years ago on an AFA 95 Vader that had developed some "frosting." I remember that thread well because people were telling him to put it out in the sun, and I warned him to be careful because the frosting ran very closely to the cape. It appeared for sale a year or two later and as soon as I saw that AFA 95 grade, I immediately thought of the thread and that prism effect on the cape leads me to believe he overexposed the cape to heat to cure the frosting. The Villains 3-Pack with the discoloured Tusken Raider can still be seen through the original eBay listing.

 

Edited February 15, 2018 by comicwiz

[Martin Sinescu]

7 hours ago, comicwiz said:

I think the test kitchen sample for the "hole" theory are the Made in Mexico (MIM) MOC's. While not all are Lili Ledy (which is why I refer to them as MIM), they were manufactured with a small hole in the back of the cardback, which is usually located in an area where the blister is located on the front side. That little hole poke seems to be an interesting sample size in surviving populations as you don't commonly see MIM MOC's exhibiting some of the blister yellowing that is otherwise quite common with Kenner US Return of the Jedi MOC's. I'm not sure the collecting community is yet ready to look seriously at these "hacks" or tips because ultimately it's a hole being poked in something that didn't belong there, and I'd imagine it would experience a grade deduction, at minimum not allowing an MOC to score higher than 70, with examples that are otherwise perfect scoring no higher than a 75. I'm not sure the verdict is out yet whether allowing blisters to breathe is a fullproof method. Consider also that early factory heat sealing of blisters with stems (prevalent in the first 21 waves) that you commonly find a little lifting or seperation at the very bottom of 12/21 Backs, that were not necessarily caused by mishandling, but in some cases, are an example of poor seal at that area where the blister should have bonded to the cardback. I have also seen this on early mock-ups, and first series diecast ships. This is also an opening that has been commonly used to test whether a Luke/Ben/Vader saber is double-telescoping. Believe it or not, I once bought an MOC (ESB 48 Back Yoda) where the seller showed me a photo with what looked like a little bit of lint trapped inside the blister. When I asked him about it, he replied with a photo showing how the lint was removed. I was shocked to say the least, and asked him what he did, and he admitted he used that tiny opening under the stem of the blister to blow compressed air and "clean out the blister" of any debris.

My general feeling on this is there is a huge sample size of carded figures which are still worth pursuing, buying and collecting. You just need to be aware of the way these items have held up due to age, mishandling and/or tampering. It's hard to cover all your bases, but at the very least, you should always carefully scrutinize pieces, especially with the value gains some have experienced.

Excellent post and I thought of those MIM cards, too, when piercing the back was mentioned. You're absolutely correct that finding a yellowed blister on a MIM card is a rarity. One thing, though, is I believe LL made the cards and blisters as well (or, at least, ordered them independently from a different supplier than Kenner would've used) so I assume they used a different kind of plastic which doesn't seem to be prone to yellowing more than the vent hole is the reason they aren't yellowed. 

[comicwiz]

It is interesting how certain foreign lines aren't plagued with the blister yellowing issues you see with their Kenner US counterpart. Here is an interesting Plaidstallions post that describes slumping "space toy" sales in 1979, and recounts as much as a 30% drop in sales.  "Slow sales on Star Wars and "Battlestar Galactica" toys have made retailers a bit gun-shy on any space items. Most plan to start off 1980 by taking on a few low-end SKU's first, before investing in high-end goods." Could this drop in sales have been a catalyst to LFL/Kenner sourcing cheaper off-shore packaging materials, and being one of the reasons we start seeing blisters from ESB and later waves more prone to yellowing?

Edited February 15, 2018 by comicwiz

[Buzzetta]

@whisp @comicwiz @Martin Sinescu

Lego USC Falcon... or Hasbro Lab's first release of Jabba's Sail Barge.... 

Oh noz

https://www.hasbrolab.com/

You have until April 3rd to place your order... as of this post they have 382/5000 of the needed commitments for it to enter production. 

update at 8:25 

• 408 / 5000
• Where is the 4-7" of snow that I am supposed to get tonight? 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Buzzetta

[Martin Sinescu]

Oh my. That's going to be tempting 

[Buzzetta]

3 minutes ago, Martin Sinescu said:

Oh my. That's going to be tempting 

I was selling my Jabba's sail barge minions on eBay.  I can't decide if I want to ridiculously increase the price on them or take them down... "Just in case" I pull the trigger on the sail barge.  

 

If I pull the sail barge there is a lot of other things I need to get rid of to justify the purchase and the space required. 

[Martin Sinescu]

Just now, Buzzetta said:

I was selling my Jabba's sail barge minions on eBay.  I can't decide if I want to ridiculously increase the price on them or take them down... "Just in case" I pull the trigger on the sail barge.  

 

If I pull the sail barge there is a lot of other things I need to get rid of to justify the purchase and the space required. 

The space required.... that's the thing.

[Buzzetta]

Just now, Martin Sinescu said:

The space required.... that's the thing.

I have the BMF Falcon and the BMF AT AT in a closet... I don't know where I would put this thing.