General discussion thread - keep the other threads clean 29 29

[comix4fun]

On 9/16/2021 at 7:05 PM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

I completely agree with your statements.

The only thing I could venture a hypothetical is that they were POed that it wasn't posted/listed through one of the affiliate auction houses so they could hype/garner news and try to further their "brand"/"image" through promotion.

 Which again makes none of what has happened even remotely acceptable. 

To be honest they need to review the mod who pulled it and directly contact Mr. B with an apology as well as the results of action taken against the one who made this inexcusable decision.  

It raises two questions for me, intertwined:

1) Was this unprompted moderation action, where a moderator saw the listing, decided on his own the price was too high, deemed it a joke, and took action? 

or

2) Was this user prompted (moderation notified by a user) that THEY thought the listing was a joke, because the price was too high, and convinced the moderator to take action?

Both are incorrect actions, but the latter should have some consequence of its own. Interfering with another user's listings, is interfering with their business, and in this case it can only be considered out of pure ignorance of the market, jealousy over the quality of Bedrocks books and business, or some combination of the two. None of which should be rewarded with validation by the moderation team if that, in fact, is what occurred. 

[KCOComics]

On 9/16/2021 at 7:56 PM, comix4fun said:

Well, here's the problem with that reasoning that you understand as reasonable....it wasn't the stated reason Bedrock was given. 
So, since the reason you're listing isn't the reason they gave, he really shouldn't replace your reason for their reason and use that as his reason to "accept it and move on". (did I use the word reason enough? lol) 

And I am going to say this as gently as I can, without intended insult or malice or condescension towards you, you haven't been here long enough to be able to compare moderation changes over the nearly 20 years some of us have been here. Today's moderation, and even 2019's moderation when you signed up, isn't anything like the moderation from 2015, 2010, 2005 or from the establishment of this forum.

The manner and implementation of moderation over that time has varied wildly. At no time in the past has an asking price been deemed "a joke" and having been deemed "a joke" on asking price alone, that thread is locked and removed. These are comic books (this one being sold by one of the most established dealers in the field) and slabbed comic books to boot (slabbed by the company maintaining this site and forum) why would a high asking price for one of their own products be deemed a "joke" on asking price alone, without some context to support that assertion? Why would a top echelon dealer waste his time listing it? Why would moderation waste their time attempting to read that dealer's mind? 

That's not effective moderation. Also, it is not the type of moderation that helped create and foster this forum to the point that it became great. It's not what's helped this forum grow over the years. It's also not maintaining the forum in health or activity. What it is doing is chasing longtime, established, foundational and core members of this forum away. Which isn't great, to put it mildly. 

I am not sure how that explanation, that Bedrock posted, that a slabbed comic book, on a comic book forum run by the company that slabbed it, a for profit enterprise fully vested in their product attaining and rising in value, could be set at an asking price that's "too high" and thus must be a "joke" to the point the thread is locked and wiped is a decision that deserves anything other than close scrutiny and questioning and not simply "respect" because it was made by moderation. They are human beings, and all decisions they make are not made ex cathedra....in this case it feels like a guess that wound up being tragically wrong in almost every possible way. 

I don't disagree with any of this. 

I probably should have been more clear in my response. Had they locked the thread for the reasons others hypothesized about (the art and song lyrics), I would have understood. I wouldn't have necessiraly agreed with it, but if that was the explanation I would be ok with it and move on. 

But your right, that wasn't the explanation given. The explanation given was improper and likely just a cover for the what I suspect the real issue was. The price of those books was inline or at least reasonable based on recent sales for similar books at Heritage.  

I think the real issue was 2+ pages of discussion on a sales thread with one (or eventually two books). So they looked for a reason to shut it down. 

And, for what it's worth, I disagree with that. I don't see a problem with the discussion and having a little fun. If you don't like it, stop reading it. And it really doesn't impact other sales threads in my opinion. If you have something worth buying, people will take notice. 

[skypinkblu]

On 9/16/2021 at 7:56 PM, comix4fun said:

Well, here's the problem with that reasoning that you understand as reasonable....it wasn't the stated reason Bedrock was given. 
So, since the reason you're listing isn't the reason they gave, he really shouldn't replace your reason for their reason and use that as his reason to "accept it and move on". (did I use the word reason enough? lol) 

And I am going to say this as gently as I can, without intended insult or malice or condescension towards you, you haven't been here long enough to be able to compare moderation changes over the nearly 20 years some of us have been here. Today's moderation, and even 2019's moderation when you signed up, isn't anything like the moderation from 2015, 2010, 2005 or from the establishment of this forum.

The manner and implementation of moderation over that time has varied wildly. At no time in the past has an asking price been deemed "a joke" and having been deemed "a joke" on asking price alone, that thread is locked and removed. These are comic books (this one being sold by one of the most established dealers in the field) and slabbed comic books to boot (slabbed by the company maintaining this site and forum) why would a high asking price for one of their own products be deemed a "joke" on asking price alone, without some context to support that assertion? Why would a top echelon dealer waste his time listing it? Why would moderation waste their time attempting to read that dealer's mind? 

That's not effective moderation. Also, it is not the type of moderation that helped create and foster this forum to the point that it became great. It's not what's helped this forum grow over the years. It's also not maintaining the forum in health or activity. What it is doing is chasing longtime, established, foundational and core members of this forum away. Which isn't great, to put it mildly. 

I am not sure how that explanation, that Bedrock posted, that a slabbed comic book, on a comic book forum run by the company that slabbed it, a for profit enterprise fully vested in their product attaining and rising in value, could be set at an asking price that's "too high" and thus must be a "joke" to the point the thread is locked and wiped is a decision that deserves anything other than close scrutiny and questioning and not simply "respect" because it was made by moderation. They are human beings, and all decisions they make are not made ex cathedra....in this case it feels like a guess that wound up being tragically wrong in almost every possible way. 

 

None of the guesses are exactly correct. 

The other night I saw a thread that mentioned Special #1. I had been bidding on one in the last Heritage Auction and lost, so I opened the thread to see the book.  I don't go looking through threads unless I'm shopping or someone makes a report, I'm not that bored.

When I scrolled down I saw the Frazetta posts (which were nude drawings) . There were some comments referencing the the drawings and some quoting of the drawings. I started to just pull the drawings and the quotes, but there were more than a few posts to go through and it was late and fixing it would have taken some time, so I pulled the thread with the intention of fixing it in the morning and then putting it back.  I have done that before, usually in a timely manner. Sometimes I can't sleep until it's fixed and I'll come back in minutes, sometimes in the morning.

However, this time I got distracted with real life and by the time I got back to it, another thread was already up, so I left a note for the admins under review  explaining that I thought Mr. B was joking around and I didn't think anything needed points . I couldn't leave it pulled without a note for the admins and  once the 2nd one was up, it was too late to restore the first one and for that I apologize. 

The admin was in the next day and posted a question in the mod section asking for clarification.

I was not around so didn't see it for hours. The 2nd thread was pulled and a notice regarding 2 threads was issued by an admin and the 2nd thread was pulled by that admin. That admin did not wait for a response from me, because the window where they are here now appears to be extremely limited and I was not around at the right time. I guess they could not wait ?

Other than my messing up and not getting back to the thread when I planned to, the volunteer mods had nothing to do with the notice. 

I agree whole heartedly that we need paid moderators. I'm not looking for a job, I'd be happy to see some well paid professionals.

  Chris is correct there have been changes. The volunteers have not changed in a long time, but the admins have and there have been big cutbacks in the time they spend.

For years, Arch would show up in the mod section, Dena sometimes, Admins, even Paul Litch sometimes and then things changed and changed and changed and there was less and less help. After the software changes in 2017, threads would be reported and no action would be taken for a week, maybe 2 weeks and people were up in arms. We kept begging for someone to show up on a regular basis...and for about a year, they did, every day, nights, even weekends sometimes. It was wonderful to be a volunteer, you just checked sometimes at night or weekends...and that was it. The admins did pretty much everything.

Then Covid hit and we were asked if we could check in a little more...that the admins would only be in 2 days a week, then it changed to 1 day, then the "day" got shorter and shorter.  With all the political stuff going on and the complaining, I'd personally leave a lot that couldn't be easily  cleared (that might need points) for the admins (by putting it under review) . Sometimes there would be more than 20 issues left. I think last week there were 26. The volunteers have not wanted to get into controversial topics because of all the complaining (I'm talking for myself, but I think it's shared).

This is the problem, I think...if an admin comes in once a week to clears issues and they are only here for a brief time,  they are likely not reading the whole thread. We have lately  been asked to provide notes. That is more work than used to be required, but I do try and leave notes, but sometimes they are quick notes. If the thread is read, the notes are sufficient.

If I'm asked a question, I'm happy to answer, but I can't guess when an admin is going to show up and ask a question, and lots of times it seems especially lately, things are adjudicated before out answers are read.    I think some things are done too quickly. I think they need to read the threads and not just rely on volunteer's notes. This is not a charity. 

I've been asking for months to have someone post about the time outs, there have been few or no answers...certainly no posts. I was asked to keep time records and post the error messages in a thread, I did that, it was a lot of work and frankly, a paid person should have been assigned.

If you have tried to copy an error message, half the time you get a blocked message when you try to post it.  So I started taking pictures of error messages with my phone and posting them with the time. Apparently I posted enough that they were going to fix something and the error messages seem to be less, but NO posts in the board threads from administration.  This was frustrating, because I think perhaps a paid person could have cleared these errors months  before if the error messages and times were all that were needed. I don't know if that was the case, because we are not told very much.

I've been asking since January for more (paid)  help. I figure a year was long enough to cut back on help for the forum for the pandemic, I've gotten NO response to those requests, absolutely none. I was told months ago a social media person was hired...have you met them ? Because I sure have not.

I've also  been asking for paid professional full time moderators for what seems like forever, so if Mr. B can achieve that, wonderful. 

The notice should not have been written the way it was. The thread was initially pulled to clean up  the pictures and whatever other junk was there. I usually think his threads are funny, but the pictures were not appropriate (and I've known who Frazetta was since I was about 10).   I'm not sure an apology from me  helps since I did not issue the notice, but if it does, I apologize.

I left a detailed statement with detailed notes about the error in the mod section, so hopefully it will be fixed.

I think the forum is important or I would not spend any time doing this stuff, but I want CGC to step up and provide answers and paid staff.

 

Edited September 17, 2021 by skypinkblu

[comix4fun]

On 9/16/2021 at 8:38 PM, skypinkblu said:

 

None of the guesses are exactly correct. 

The other night I saw a thread that mentioned Special #1. I had been bidding on one in the last Heritage Auction and lost, so I opened the thread to see the book.  I don't go looking through threads unless I'm shopping or someone makes a report, I'm not that bored.

When I scrolled down I saw the Frazetta posts (which were nude drawings) . There were some comments referencing the the drawings and some quoting of the drawings. I started to just pull the drawings and the quotes, but there were more than a few posts to go through and it was late and fixing it would have taken some time, so I pulled the thread with the intention of fixing it in the morning and then putting it back.  I have done that before, usually in a timely manner. Sometimes I can't sleep until it's fixed and I'll come back in minutes, sometimes in the morning.

However, this time I got distracted with real life and by the time I got back to it, another thread was already up, so I left a note for the admins under review  explaining that I thought Mr. B was joking around and I didn't think anything needed points . I couldn't leave it pulled without a note for the admins and  once the 2nd one was up, it was too late to restore the first one and for that I apologize. 

The admin was in the next day and posted a question in the mod section asking for clarification.

I was not around so didn't see it for hours. The 2nd thread was pulled and a notice regarding 2 threads was issued by an admin and the 2nd thread was pulled by that admin. That admin did not wait for a response from me, because the window where they are here now appears to be extremely limited and I was not around at the right time. I guess they could not wait ?

Other than my messing up and not getting back to the thread when I planned to, the volunteer mods had nothing to do with the notice. 

I agree whole heartedly that we need paid moderators. I'm not looking for a job, I'd be happy to see some well paid professionals.

  Chris is correct there have been changes. The volunteers have not changed in a long time, but the admins have and there have been big cutbacks in the time they spend.

For years, Arch would show up in the mod section, Dena sometimes, Admins, even Paul Litch sometimes and then things changed and changed and changed and there was less and less help. After the software changes om 2018 threads would be reported and no action would be taken for a week, maybe 2 weeks and people were up in arms. We kept begging for someone to show up on a regular basis...and for about a year, they did, every day, nights, even weekends sometimes. It was wonderful to be a volunteer, you just checked sometimes at night or weekends...and that was it. The admins did pretty much everything.

Then Covid hit and we were asked if we could check in a little more...that the admins would only be in 2 days a week, then it changed to 1 day, then the "day" got shorter and shorter.  With all the political stuff going on and the complaining, I'd personally leave a lot that couldn't' be easily  cleared (that might need points) for the admins (by putting it under review) . Sometimes there would be more than 20 issues left. I think last week there were 26. The volunteers have not wanted to get into controversial topics because of all the complaining (I'm talking for myself, but I think it's shared).

This is the problem, I think...if an admin comes in once a week to clears issues and they are only here for a brief time,  they are likely not reading the whole thread. We have lately  been asked to provide notes. That is more work than used to be required, but I do try and leave notes, but sometimes they are quick notes. If the thread is read, the notes are sufficient.

If I'm asked a question, I'm happy to answer, but I can't guess when an admin is going to show up and ask a question, and lots of times it seems especially lately, things are adjudicated before out answers are read.    I think some things are done too quickly. I think they need to read the threads and not just rely on volunteer's notes. This is not a charity. 

I've been asking for months to have someone post about the time outs, there have been few or no answers...certainly no posts. I was asked to keep time records and post the error messages in a thread, I did that, it was a lot of work and frankly, a paid person should have been assigned.

If you have tried to copy an error message, half the time you get a blocked message when you try to post it.  So I started taking pictures of error messages with my phone and posting them with the time. Apparently I posted enough that they were going to fix something and the error messages seem to be less, but NO posts in the board threads from administration.  This was frustrating, because I think perhaps a paid person could have cleared these errors months  before if the error messages and times were all that were needed. I don't know if that was the case, because we are not told very much.

I've been asking since January for more (paid)  help. I figure a year was long enough to cut back on help for the forum for the pandemic, I've gotten NO response to those requests, absolutely none. I was told months ago a social media person was hired...have you met them ? Because I sure have not.

I've also  been asking for paid professional full time moderators for what seems like forever, so if Mr. B can achieve that, wonderful. 

The notice should not have been written the way it was. The thread was initially pulled to clean up  the pictures and whatever other junk was there. I usually think his threads are funny, but the pictures were not appropriate (and I've known who Frazetta was since I was about 10).   I'm not sure an apology from me  helps since I did not issue the notice, but if it does, I apologize.

I left a detailed statement with detailed notes about the error in the mod section, so hopefully it will be fixed.

I think the forum is important or I would not spend any time doing this stuff, but I want CGC to step up and provide answers and paid staff.

 

Thanks for taking the time @skypinkblu to lay all that out. 

The changes in the tone, manner and consistency of moderation on this board for that last probably 3-4 years has been inconsistent at best. And that coincides with what you've described. 

What used to be logical, consistent and congruous moderation and the expectation of what the limitations of the board rules will allow and not allow began to feel more arbitrary and inscrutable over that time. Perhaps it was a combination of what you describe, but the end result has been a lot of very established, high quality, well known, solid, mature adults who've been with this forum since the beginning or close to it simply walking away, unable to decipher what was allowed, not allowed, from hour to hour and day to day. What was fine and dandy on a Monday, got a warning on a Wednesday. I am sure some of that was jockeying for position from some posters NOT in a position of moderation or administration seeking to remake the board in their preferred image and some was just volunteer mods doing their best to navigate without enough backup or guidance in applying the standards as they were and became over time. 

In this case Bedrock's threads are not only gone, he's been suspended this board, from what he's posted elsewhere online. 

That just seems to make what could have been an innocent or well-intended moderation clean up situation into an exacerbated over-reach which may reduce the number of established forum members by one more. 

People who started here in their 20s-30s-40s and who are now approaching middle-age or their golden years, successful and respected in their own fields, really don't want the board they come to for their hobbies, to alleviate stress of the regular work-a-day world, to wind up being the cause of an entirely new set of stresses. 

It's a shame really, this was THE place for so long and a lot of people who've only been around for the last 5 or years might not have any clue what I'm referring to or talking about. Frankly, laying all of this work on volunteer mods like you, to handle all this work and to take the heat when it goes sideways, is incredibly unfair of administration to expect of anyone...but especially people donating their time to try and help. 

[skypinkblu]

Sometimes what is fine on Monday, gets a complaint on Wednesday and the Monday thingy is not seen.

I have not seen Arch post since the pandemic. I hope he's OK. He was a huge part of what helped things work...although even he could be inscrutable at times. 

 

[Park]

On 9/16/2021 at 7:00 PM, comix4fun said:

Thanks for taking the time @skypinkblu to lay all that out. 

The changes in the tone, manner and consistency of moderation on this board for that last probably 3-4 years has been inconsistent at best. And that coincides with what you've described. 

What used to be logical, consistent and congruous moderation and the expectation of what the limitations of the board rules will allow and not allow began to feel more arbitrary and inscrutable over that time. Perhaps it was a combination of what you describe, but the end result has been a lot of very established, high quality, well known, solid, mature adults who've been with this forum since the beginning or close to it simply walking away, unable to decipher what was allowed, not allowed, from hour to hour and day to day. What was fine and dandy on a Monday, got a warning on a Wednesday. I am sure some of that was jockeying for position from some posters NOT in a position of moderation or administration seeking to remake the board in their preferred image and some was just volunteer mods doing their best to navigate without enough backup or guidance in applying the standards as they were and became over time. 

In this case Bedrock's threads are not only gone, he's been suspended this board, from what he's posted elsewhere online. 

That just seems to make what could have been an innocent or well-intended moderation clean up situation into an exacerbated over-reach which may reduce the number of established forum members by one more. 

People who started here in their 20s-30s-40s and who are now approaching middle-age or their golden years, successful and respected in their own fields, really don't want the board they come to for their hobbies, to alleviate stress of the regular work-a-day world, to wind up being the cause of an entirely new set of stresses. 

It's a shame really, this was THE place for so long and a lot of people who've only been around for the last 5 or years might not have any clue what I'm referring to or talking about. Frankly, laying all of this work on volunteer mods like you, to handle all this work and to take the heat when it goes sideways, is incredibly unfair of administration to expect of anyone...but especially people donating their time to try and help. 

Summed up quite nicely.

Bedrock being suspended from posting because of this entire situation is ridiculous and should be remedied but absolutely highlights the much bigger problem that you and Sharon highlighted.

The moderation on this board has absolutely changed and the boards have suffered as a result. And not in a “get off my lawn” type of way but it has enabled many here to play games using moderation and drive away anyone they don’t like or agree with.

And by moderation, I am not referring to the volunteers. 

[Park]

On 9/15/2021 at 11:10 AM, Park said:

 

I am down with seeing how many times you list it before they lose their mind though. I am putting the over/under at a dozen.
 

 

 

For Bedrock’s entertainment, it looks like the “under” was the winner.

Please contact a moderator to claim your winnings.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/17/2021 at 2:38 AM, skypinkblu said:

I think the forum is important or I would not spend any time doing this stuff, but I want CGC to step up and provide answers and paid staff.

 

Nicely put Sharon.

I've been battling behind the scenes on and off for the last few years now, trying to get various CGC staff to see the value in increasing the paid support of this forum which, let's face it, is on a seemingly relentless downward spiral. Five years ago we had Arch, Scott and Dena actively administering the site. Now we have no one. As a result, all the key elements are deteriorating - moderation, innovation, communication, issues management, Q&A, technical performance - I see a palpable sense of drift in all areas and it feels to me like active membership and participation are both reducing as a result.

We need someone who understands the site, the members and the history, someone who is paid to look after and grow the site, preferably full time. Not someone who is pulled away all the time to support other CGC duties. Someone who works here and here alone, and who communicates with the membership on the issues of the day, working to fix and improve them. Do we really think that CGC could not afford that at the moment? It has to be a choice, rather than a financial constraint, surely.

I don't like to quote publicly what is said to me privately but I will say that one of the admins once took the time to tell me - time that they didn't have - that what we want will never happen because CGC management will not pay for it. So we're all wasting our time here it seems, those of us who seek to bang the drum for positive change. Nothing is going to change. CGC Management know the score, and do nothing.

I tried to help Mr Bedrock in the mod thread as I could see he was on course to be suspended. Righteous anger is always undermined when you start calling people names. He resorted to that, I think, because he was exasperated in the moment with falling foul of under-resourced, ineffective processes. If he had followed my advice, and took the matter up privately and calmly, he would likely still be here now. I understand he is friendly with Matt Nelson, and had a discussion about moderation with him. His last comment was that he hoped Matt would come through. Now he's suspended. What does that tell you about the ability to affect change here?

There is no communication on this forum. Problematic moderation - no communication. Site goes down for two days and then daily for two months - no communication. Q&A sections full of unanswered questions. I could go on, but am supposed to be following my own advice of saying something once, and moving on. It's hard to follow your own advice, sometimes, isn't it.

Does anyone think any of this will change then? Does anyone here have any influence with the decision makers? If a chat with Matt is followed by your suspension, what is the point? Why should we spend another minute here propping up this massive advert for CGCs services, if they can't communicate one single word of explanation to us about anything? Why should members volunteer to do all CGCs dirty work for them, and field all the flack? Look at Sharon here, trying to help, trying to explain, taking the heat. It's shameful that she is left to do that without one word of support from those that are likely paid very well for the income generating work that they now focus on. Sharon shows more love for the forum in one post than the whole CGC staff compliment have managed in a year.

 

 

[MrBedrock]

Posted this in the Moderation forum but figured it could be posted here as well...

 

Justice prevailed, with the help of a few phone calls.

I called the moderation imbecilic, in a Bull Durham sort of way. "Do you want me to call you an imbecile?" But either way that was never the stated reason the threads got pulled or that I got suspended. Ultimately all of that happened purely at the whim of an untrained, amateur, overbearing moderation team whose choice was based solely on personal vindictiveness.

I respect those of you who think that you should stay in the lines because you think that is the right tbing to do. This place needs some real change though. You will never get it by staying behind the line. You need to make a phone call, create a post send an email, something.

Finally, at the risk of stoking more flames, I appreciate that Sharon spent the time to explain her position. Now ask yourself how, given all that she said, has she been given the sole right and ability to make the decision to pull an entire thread if she alone decides its the right thing to do? Obviously it is because CGC thinks so little of this place that they don't really care.

So create a post, make a phone call, send an email, and let them know that you do care.

[skypinkblu]

On 9/17/2021 at 10:34 AM, MrBedrock said:

Posted this in the Moderation forum but figured it could be posted here as well...

 

Justice prevailed, with the help of a few phone calls.

I called the moderation imbecilic, in a Bull Durham sort of way. "Do you want me to call you an imbecile?" But either way that was never the stated reason the threads got pulled or that I got suspended. Ultimately all of that happened purely at the whim of an untrained, amateur, overbearing moderation team whose choice was based solely on personal vindictiveness.

I respect those of you who think that you should stay in the lines because you think that is the right tbing to do. This place needs some real change though. You will never get it by staying behind the line. You need to make a phone call, create a post send an email, something.

Finally, at the risk of stoking more flames, I appreciate that Sharon spent the time to explain her position. Now ask yourself how, given all that she said, has she been given the sole right and ability to make the decision to pull an entire thread if she alone decides its the right thing to do? Obviously it is because CGC thinks so little of this place that they don't really care.

So create a post, make a phone call, send an email, and let them know that you do care.

Just so we don't start more rumours. It's common practice to pull a thread or to lock one to clean it up. The reason for that is that while you are removing posts, things are often edited while you are doing it. Someone sees a post being pulled and they jump to make a change.  That's OK, if someone wants to hide an error, but it's more time consuming. 

 I had nothing to do with the other threads other than to refer the 2nd one to a paid Admin.  The reason for any action on my part in pulling your thread, had to do with the nude pictures which were quoted (not ignored which would have made life easier). I feel no personal vindictiveness, but I do bump any complaints (and there have been some) made regarding your posts to the admins, because I don't even want the fact that you have made a few comments in the past to color my judgement. I totally recuse myself for that reason. The pictures could have been in anybody's thread. It had nothing to do with the fact that it was your thread. Upsetting you does not please me.  I'm not like that, I'm sorry if you think I would even consider anything like that.

You've had a number of funny threads. To the best of my recollection, none have been pulled. 

I didn't even see the "imbecile" or other stuff until it was pointed out. I don't see how calling people names helps things, but if you can get paid people here who can help the forum, that would be great.

Dena posted in the mod thread that she is reaching out to HR. That's the only information I have...

I agree that CGC has not shown the care or use of financial resources that I would like to see them give to this forum. 

I answered not to start more trouble, but because I've never agreed with the total lack of transparency.  I liked it when we had a list of strikes and why they were given.  I liked it when Arch would post and explain things...I even liked the LPTC thread. I've often thought and said that too much has been dumped on the volunteers, especially lately.

 

 

 

[sckao]

Nudity, profanity, etc. in threads, even quoted, have always been reasons for threads being pulled.

We experienced that in our Grading Contests and I was afraid we were going to have one of our Grading Rounds pulled because of that reason... Which would have impacted a fair number of people.

(Thanks, Sharon, for being a volunteer Mod. It's a thankless task and I didn't realize it had so much more responsibility these days.)

Edited September 17, 2021 by sckao

[comix4fun]

On 9/17/2021 at 11:46 AM, sckao said:

Nudity, profanity, etc. in threads, even quoted, have always been reasons for threads being pulled.

We experienced that in our Grading Contests and I was afraid we were going to have one of our Grading Rounds pulled because of that reason... Which would have impacted a fair number of people.

 

Of course they have. 

I think reaction in this discussion to Richard being told that his asking price was so high it must have been a joke of a thread was the reason for the thread being locked and pulled. 

It seems that's all being sorted out now, but I am sure you agree that asking price has never been a reason or within the purview of moderation, to lock or pull threads. 

[sckao]

The order of events is important. I saw the Action listing yesterday, but did not see the original thread that was pulled. If the Action listing was in response to the Original Thread that was pulled, I can see how the Moderators would construe that as an escalation or a passive-aggressive challenge. 

If it were the first and only posting without a previous thread lock/pull, then I agree it was unwarranted. 

 

 

[comix4fun]

On 9/17/2021 at 11:59 AM, sckao said:

The order of events is important. I saw the Action listing yesterday, but did not see the original thread that was pulled. If the Action listing was in response to the Original Thread that was pulled, I can see how the Moderators would construe that as an escalation or a passive-aggressive challenge. 

If it were the first and only posting without a previous thread lock/pull, then I agree it was unwarranted. 

 

 

If they were able to divine that listing a golden age book for sale in the golden age for sale area was intended as anything other than using that forum for exactly its intended purpose and was, instead, part of an Aaron Burr-style "flintlocks at dawn" gauntlet across the cheeks move, without some additional corroboration or confirmation, they may have created a self-fulfilling prophecy that may have also been diametrically opposed to reality.

The guys at the carnival guessing your weight for a prize are employed to make guesses.....I don't think moderation should delve into mentalism as a roadmap to maintain order. 

[PKJ]

Good to see the train can still go off the rails quickly on Friday nights in the for sale forums.

 

Edited September 17, 2021 by PKJ

[crassus]

On 9/17/2021 at 7:31 PM, PKJ said:

Good to see the train can still go off the rails quickly on Friday nights in the for sale forums.

 

Indeed, its been a while since we've had a graduate from the School of Too Cool for Rules, but he's making the most of his auction audition...

[PKJ]

On 9/17/2021 at 9:20 PM, crassus said:

Indeed, its been a while since we've had a graduate from the School of Too Cool for Rules, but he's making the most of his auction audition...

LOL. I know I should have taken the high road and just ignored when I was quoted in the replies but it did seem a little over the top.

[jimjum12]

On 9/17/2021 at 4:06 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Nicely put Sharon.

I've been battling behind the scenes on and off for the last few years now, trying to get various CGC staff to see the value in increasing the paid support of this forum which, let's face it, is on a seemingly relentless downward spiral. Five years ago we had Arch, Scott and Dena actively administering the site. Now we have no one. As a result, all the key elements are deteriorating - moderation, innovation, communication, issues management, Q&A, technical performance - I see a palpable sense of drift in all areas and it feels to me like active membership and participation are both reducing as a result.

We need someone who understands the site, the members and the history, someone who is paid to look after and grow the site, preferably full time. Not someone who is pulled away all the time to support other CGC duties. Someone who works here and here alone, and who communicates with the membership on the issues of the day, working to fix and improve them. Do we really think that CGC could not afford that at the moment? It has to be a choice, rather than a financial constraint, surely.

I don't like to quote publicly what is said to me privately but I will say that one of the admins once took the time to tell me - time that they didn't have - that what we want will never happen because CGC management will not pay for it. So we're all wasting our time here it seems, those of us who seek to bang the drum for positive change. Nothing is going to change. CGC Management know the score, and do nothing.

I tried to help Mr Bedrock in the mod thread as I could see he was on course to be suspended. Righteous anger is always undermined when you start calling people names. He resorted to that, I think, because he was exasperated in the moment with falling foul of under-resourced, ineffective processes. If he had followed my advice, and took the matter up privately and calmly, he would likely still be here now. I understand he is friendly with Matt Nelson, and had a discussion about moderation with him. His last comment was that he hoped Matt would come through. Now he's suspended. What does that tell you about the ability to affect change here?

There is no communication on this forum. Problematic moderation - no communication. Site goes down for two days and then daily for two months - no communication. Q&A sections full of unanswered questions. I could go on, but am supposed to be following my own advice of saying something once, and moving on. It's hard to follow your own advice, sometimes, isn't it.

Does anyone think any of this will change then? Does anyone here have any influence with the decision makers? If a chat with Matt is followed by your suspension, what is the point? Why should we spend another minute here propping up this massive advert for CGCs services, if they can't communicate one single word of explanation to us about anything? Why should members volunteer to do all CGCs dirty work for them, and field all the flack? Look at Sharon here, trying to help, trying to explain, taking the heat. It's shameful that she is left to do that without one word of support from those that are likely paid very well for the income generating work that they now focus on. Sharon shows more love for the forum in one post than the whole CGC staff compliment have managed in a year.

 

 

Perhaps it's just growing pains , and that is not a joke. They're growing almost exponentially. If I was younger, I'd likely put in an app. Like  Sharon mentioned, different days have different effects. I remember when most of the mods were just users, and personally think they're all fine choices for the role .... I apologize for posting questionably permissible images, knowingly so. I never meant for anyone to be adversely affected. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited September 18, 2021 by jimjum12

[FlyingDonut]

On 9/16/2021 at 10:00 PM, comix4fun said:

Thanks for taking the time @skypinkblu to lay all that out. 

The changes in the tone, manner and consistency of moderation on this board for that last probably 3-4 years has been inconsistent at best. And that coincides with what you've described. 

What used to be logical, consistent and congruous moderation and the expectation of what the limitations of the board rules will allow and not allow began to feel more arbitrary and inscrutable over that time. Perhaps it was a combination of what you describe, but the end result has been a lot of very established, high quality, well known, solid, mature adults who've been with this forum since the beginning or close to it simply walking away, unable to decipher what was allowed, not allowed, from hour to hour and day to day. What was fine and dandy on a Monday, got a warning on a Wednesday. I am sure some of that was jockeying for position from some posters NOT in a position of moderation or administration seeking to remake the board in their preferred image and some was just volunteer mods doing their best to navigate without enough backup or guidance in applying the standards as they were and became over time. 

In this case Bedrock's threads are not only gone, he's been suspended this board, from what he's posted elsewhere online. 

That just seems to make what could have been an innocent or well-intended moderation clean up situation into an exacerbated over-reach which may reduce the number of established forum members by one more. 

People who started here in their 20s-30s-40s and who are now approaching middle-age or their golden years, successful and respected in their own fields, really don't want the board they come to for their hobbies, to alleviate stress of the regular work-a-day world, to wind up being the cause of an entirely new set of stresses. 

It's a shame really, this was THE place for so long and a lot of people who've only been around for the last 5 or years might not have any clue what I'm referring to or talking about. Frankly, laying all of this work on volunteer mods like you, to handle all this work and to take the heat when it goes sideways, is incredibly unfair of administration to expect of anyone...but especially people donating their time to try and help. 

This is extremely well put. I got a week suspension for talking about my job and my questions as to what the suspension was for went into a black hole. The moderation here is - without question - driving people away.

Edited September 19, 2021 by FlyingDonut

[skypinkblu]

On 9/19/2021 at 12:10 AM, FlyingDonut said:

This is extremely well put. I got a week suspension for talking about my job and my questions as to what the suspension was for went into a black hole. The moderation here is - without question - driving people away.

Dena answered last night and said "Arch and Scott work for our technical vendor. They are both fine and I continue to work with them on other website projects like the registries, pop reports, online submission forms, etc. The other paid mod works for that company as well and was only allotted a specific amount of time to be here on the boards."

So a change was made and of course we were never notified. I'm glad they are OK. 

I don't know when that change was made, but I'm guessing early in the pandemic, when the paid mod said they would be here less.  I don't know whose decision it was, whether it was financial or based on loss of staff  or which side made the decision. 

We have had a number of "paid mods" over the years. We also had a number of Admins.  The last time volunteer mods were added was April 2013. There were 12 slots, most of those people have left. No explanations were posted. I guessed who a few were, but it was all secret. As far as I know there were Mod "s that had different boarders taking over the same number. Someone mentioned that, I'm not sure if it's true or not, I never investigated, it didn't matter to me.

I know that Mod2 tries to answer some of the complaints, but his/her time " is very limited".  So if you receive a notice on a Wed and they are not back till the following week, you are going to be frustrated and understandably so. 

Finding the information about a decision is not that simple. When I worked in the real world in adjudication, I could call up a detailed file with all the statements on my computer.

This system is not so sophisticated. Cases do not go to Administrative law judges.  It seems that it was designed to just do something quickly and simply with little time taken...and on a chatboard, that makes some sense.

It was also set up with the idea that identities would be masked. That was to shield the volunteers I'm sure. I was never privy to the thoughts behind it.

I know Mike has stepped up and tried to answer some questions. I've done it in a more limited way. Finding the information is time consuming, you can't pull up a name and get access to all the rationales. Some just have a complaint and a decision, so you have to find the thread that caused the complaint and guess. I don't love leaving people wondering, but I also don't want to have to explain decisions I didn't make....and that happens. 

At work, I could overrule decisions I didn't agree with, here that is not my job. I can write a note, but it's not going to be read until someone shows up.

I wrote to a boarder who was complaining about some posts about a week ago and said that I had put the complaints under review. I tried to explain that  they would be decided when the paid mod checked in. He's been posting in the mod thread ever since that he was told no one cares. That's not true, it was not that I didn't care, I just didn't feel comfortable making the decision, I thought a paid person should do it. I said that...but when people are upset, they don't always process the same way they would when they are not upset.

Dena said that they are working on hiring a paid team.  I have no idea what that means as far as timing goes. It does mean, we don't have one in place at this time.