Marvel's Falling Sales 6 6

[cortown71]

Old man spiderman.remember you saw it here first.

[Ken Aldred]

1 hour ago, cortown71 said:

Old man spiderman.remember you saw it here first.

[Mercury Man]

18 hours ago, SteppinRazor said:

Things come to an end, and it is patently obvious that he became boring to most people. 

 

And yet Amazing Spiderman still outsells Miles Morales' Spiderman title.   Is Miles title even in the top 75 right now?

(I just looked it up.   For August Amazing Spiderman ranked 18th with 54,102 units sold while Miles Spiderman ranked 72nd with 30,387 units sold.  So I don't think your comment holds).   

 

18 hours ago, SteppinRazor said:

Frankly, I think the only non-replaceable character in comics is Superman.

Well you opened the can of worms.  So why is Superman immune?  

Your personal preference?  Your admiration of the characters history?   You still trying to sell unopened bags of his 'Death' issue?   Not sure why you feel he is exempt.  Your feelings towards his character can translate to any long running character, for any one of us. 

 

Edited September 19, 2017 by Mercury Man

[cortown71]

Hmm i can see how that spiderman reign might slip by attention.OK well that'll be my future hot pick. You'll see marvel brings him into current universe.

I can see it now. Marvel Seniors Team-Up: Old man Logan and Old man parker take on old man banner with guest appearance by old man Grimm.

[HighRadArt]

1 hour ago, cortown71 said:

Hmm i can see how that spiderman reign might slip by attention.OK well that'll be my future hot pick. You'll see marvel brings him into current universe.

I can see it now. Marvel Seniors Team-Up: Old man Logan and Old man parker take on old man banner with guest appearance by old man Grimm.

Marvel's Secret Secret Last Vegas ll

Edited September 19, 2017 by HighRadArt

[mattn792]

1 hour ago, cortown71 said:

 

I can see it now. Marvel Seniors Team-Up: Old man Logan and Old man parker take on old man banner with guest appearance by old man Grimm.

Good thing Preparation H just debuted in Tanning Bed Hulk 22...

[SteppinRazor]

3 hours ago, Mercury Man said:

 

And yet Amazing Spiderman still outsells Miles Morales' Spiderman title.   Is Miles title even in the top 75 right now?

(I just looked it up.   For August Amazing Spiderman ranked 18th with 54,102 units sold while Miles Spiderman ranked 72nd with 30,387 units sold.  So I don't think your comment holds).   

 

Well you opened the can of worms.  So why is Superman immune?  

Your personal preference?  Your admiration of the characters history?   You still trying to sell unopened bags of his 'Death' issue?   Not sure why you feel he is exempt.  Your feelings towards his character can translate to any long running character, for any one of us. 

 

ASM may outsell Morales, but that is not proof that Peter Parker is popular.  It can be, but it can also be that as I said, fans are aging so they are sticking with the known.  It can also be that Morales and his introduction was poorly done and poorly handled.  Sales numbers do not illustrate that Parker is growing new readership, which is what the goal of any comic should be.

 

Superman is immune IMO because he is the original superhero, too iconic, and too difficult to replace as the last surviving member of his species.  Personally I would be fine if he were replaced too, I just don't think they can accomplish it.  The Batman Beyond cartoon was the perfect story to replace Bruce Wayne as Batman and worked because the story was compelling.

The story is the key.  With good enough ones, they can change and better appeal to young new readers and potentially retain current fans.  They certainly haven't put much effort into caring about the story though, they just swapped everybody out knee-jerk style.

Edited September 20, 2017 by SteppinRazor

[CAHokie]

How is he too difficult to replace? You don't think they can come up with a story of someone else who survived and was unknown all this time? 

Heck, they came up with the "brilliant" storyline that a second person was bit seconds after Peter Parker was by the same spider. We just didn't know about her for the last 50 years.....

[Readcomix]

On September 18, 2017 at 12:28 AM, delekkerste said:

The comic book publishing industry has been in a secular decline for more than two decades.  Short-termism and greed led to overexpansion, a speculative bubble and an unprecedented decline in quality in the '90s, which all culminated in the Marvel bankruptcy, consolidation of distribution and the rationalization and diversification of LCS's.  Meanwhile, the Internet, broadband and other technological/communications breakthroughs disrupted society in an unprecedented manner, splintering interests and norms which had lasted for years/decades/centuries into an infinite number of directions, as content, innovation, distribution, communications etc. all expanded exponentially as never before.  To put it in plain English:  we lost the next generation of comic book readers just as an infinite number of alternatives suddenly showed up.  We would have seen a big shift away anyway (just as we've seen happen to all traditional media, from network TV to newspapers to periodicals), but, that really jump-started the secular decline in a big way.

Sure, comic books staged a rebound in both unit and $ sales after bottoming out in the late '90s.  Quality improved dramatically (contrary to what some here believe, I think Marvel's quality in the early 2000s was the best the company had produced since the early 1980s), robust back issue markets (buoyed by improved information, distribution, third-party grading, liquidity, easy money, etc.), spillover interest from other media (re: Hollywood), etc. all helped comics to stage a cyclical rebound after the dark days of the mid-to-late '90s.  But, as we are seeing with other print media and other businesses that have been hugely disrupted, this just papered over what is clearly a long-term secular decline. 

Yes, Marvel shot themselves in the foot with poor business practices (e.g., variant mania, constant re-boots, too many titles, too many crossovers, questionable editorial decisions, etc.) and has undoubtedly accelerated this long-term downtrend.  But, even if Marvel was firing on all cylinders creatively, while they may be doing better than they are now, it's not like they'd be killing it and that the industry would be facing a bright future.  I think that battle has been lost; eventually, more and more of the current customer base is going to age out and there will need to be some serious right-sizing in the industry.  Clearly, the market cannot support 100+ titles from Marvel plus another 80 or whatever from DC and then all the indies, while the print-to-digital ratio is probably going to have to shift a lot more in favor of the latter as well over time.

As an interesting aside, I read an analysis of Maxim magazine last week that some of you might find interesting.  The short version is that the American version of Maxim was launched in 1997 and became a huge hit.  But, it's popularity and profitability peaked in 2007 - I'm sure changing content tastes was part of the subsequent decline, but mostly it got caught up in the secular shift towards digital and interactive media (both consumers and advertisers made the shift).  Anyway, the magazine was sold a number of times starting in 2007 until it was acquired as a turnaround project by a publicly-traded investment holding company, Bigliari Holdings (BH).  The article I linked above shows how Bigliari has tried to turn Maxim around, but has only succeeded in racking up tens of millions of dollars of red ink over the past few years. 

I used to read and subscribe to Maxim in the late Nineties and in the Noughties, but, like many, ditched it.  About a year ago, I picked up a copy of the revamped magazine at the airport and was really impressed by it - production values are up, and it clearly wants to cater to a higher-caliber of reader and advertiser.  Though, I didn't end up continuing to buy it (I might consider subscribing to the digital version, but haven't yet), and therein lies the problem with both the print magazine industry and the comic book industry - even if you make the product better, or even cheaper (Maxim actually did both - lowered the price vs. peers and improved the quality dramatically), changing preferences (for both consumers and advertisers) means that it's unlikely that you will be able to fight the secular headwinds. 

Marvel publishing cannot save itself by catering to kids, lowering prices, firing its PC editors and whatever else has been suggested here.  While some of these moves may certainly help, ultimately, the secular headwinds are the bigger factor in consumers finding other places to spend their time and money.  

This is sadly spot-on.

It may well be that Disney should shelve Marvel print for some time; that may or may not lead down the road to viable reinvention. Yes, I understood what you wrote; further change down the road may lead to a viable reinvention is all I'm saying. Or not. But if print publishing, comics or otherwise, has a prayer at reinvention down the road, the vision will likely come from the mind of someone who has not grown up in the incarnation of the industry that we have known for years.

Cheer up, all, it could be worse. The crew at Rolling Stone could be in charge. 

[Silver Surfer]

23 hours ago, SteppinRazor said:

Because he's gone from a kid to an adult to married.  How many 12 year olds want to read about marital problems?  He's fought everyone in his and others' rogue's galleries a bazillion times.  His continuity is a mess precisely because Peter Parker is a been there done that story.  It's played out.  Things come to an end, and it is patently obvious that he became boring to most people.  There's a reason the fans are aging with the characters - they aren't attracting new fans.  Your 5 year old more than likely knows PP is Spider-Man from the movies, unless they're one of the very few who actually read a Marvel title.

That's why there needs to be change.  We have what, 70 years of Steve Rogers stories?  Who cares anymore?  How much more is there to investigate and delve into with this guy?  Let the poor man retire and relax.

It may be that Morales is a gimmick, but that means it was poorly done.  It doesn't necessitate meaning that turning the page on PP shouldn't  be done.

Parker should go away from continuity.  Publish one shot or TPBs with him if you think there's enough market.  He doesn't have to go away completely.

Frankly, I think the only non-replaceable character in comics is Superman.

What? Yeah lets see Lex Luthor for the 14th time in another lame remake. The oldest character in comics yet they have a hard time scraping together 3 original story lines. Frankly, he is the only character they could put on the shelf for 10 years and we wouldn't miss a thing.

[Mercury Man]

2 hours ago, SteppinRazor said:

They certainly haven't put much effort into caring about the story though, they just swapped everybody out knee-jerk style.

This I 100% agree with. 

[Ken Aldred]

10 hours ago, CAHokie said:

How is he too difficult to replace? You don't think they can come up with a story of someone else who survived and was unknown all this time? 

There are plenty of Kandorians and Daxamites around with the same powers.

[Ken Aldred]

15 hours ago, cortown71 said:

Hmm i can see how that spiderman reign might slip by attention.OK well that'll be my future hot pick. You'll see marvel brings him into current universe.

 

It's actually quite a well-known storyline, and infamous for the way MJ died.

[SteppinRazor]

23 hours ago, Silver Surfer said:

What? Yeah lets see Lex Luthor for the 14th time in another lame remake. The oldest character in comics yet they have a hard time scraping together 3 original story lines. Frankly, he is the only character they could put on the shelf for 10 years and we wouldn't miss a thing.

Agree completely, yet still believe what I said.  Superman is only irreplaceable due to his stature, not his uncompelling storylines.

[drotto]

On 9/19/2017 at 6:20 PM, Mercury Man said:

 

 

 

Well you opened the can of worms.  So why is Superman immune?  

Your personal preference?  Your admiration of the characters history?   You still trying to sell unopened bags of his 'Death' issue?   Not sure why you feel he is exempt.  Your feelings towards his character can translate to any long running character, for any one of us. 

 

I agree with you, I do not think Superan is immune, but I have always found the character kinda dull.  But I do think Batman is somewhat immune, but not because of the Batman character, but because of his villians.  The Batman family struck gold when it made the bad guys the most interesting part of Batmen.  It is inharently easier to keep a story fresh (or fresher at least), when you can continuously bring in new antagonists and therefor  ideas to an extent.  It is the same reason a team book like Avengers or X-Men is inharently easier to keep fresh than a single character series like Spider-Man.  If things get dull the team can rotate.

 

The point is there are ways to keep stories contanting both new and old characters fesh and interesting.  The part where Marvel is currently failing is that most of the new characters feel forced.  They have been created to fill a very small nitch, or to fill some gap.  Not to say more diverse characters are not welcome, but when the focous is on what the characters is and not how they can be used to create a good story, that new characters is doomed. This approach then seems to severly limit the stories that either can be told, or that editorial wants to tell. It is used to capture headlines. Once the novelty and Buzz subsides, writers seem to be left to ask, what the hell do we do with these characters now?

 

Even if Marvel can right itself (and I honestly believe tha it can), the days of paper are dying. Comics will survive, but the need to adapt to remain relative.

[Mercury Man]

7 hours ago, drotto said:

Not to say more diverse characters are not welcome, but when the focous is on what the characters is and not how they can be used to create a good story, that new characters is doomed.

Marvel has lead the way in diversity.   Black Panther, Falcon, Luke Cage, Storm, War Machine, Sunfire, Ms. Marvel, Black Goliath etc.   All great.  I just don't see the need for them to eliminate the white male superhero from the 1960's, replacing them with knock off versions for a Modern age.  The old timers aren't buying it and the young kids aren't buying it, so why continue to force it in with Marvel Generations. 

[Jayman]

They should relaunch Black Goliath as a white guy. I'd buy that, just to read how they reasoned it out! ?

[ComicConnoisseur]

2 hours ago, Mercury Man said:

Marvel has lead the way in diversity.   Black Panther, Falcon, Luke Cage, Storm, War Machine, Sunfire, Ms. Marvel, Black Goliath etc.   All great.  I just don't see the need for them to eliminate the white male superhero from the 1960's, replacing them with knock off versions for a Modern age.  The old timers aren't buying it and the young kids aren't buying it, so why continue to force it in with Marvel Generations. 

Agree and also I think also is people want Tony Stark as Iron Man, Bruce Banner as Hulk,Steve Rogers as Captain America,Logan as Wolverine and Peter Parker as Spider-Man. Here you got these great universally beloved characters more popular than ever with billion dollar box offices and what does Marvel Comics do? They changed their brand. Instead of using all the new found popularity of the movies their brain trust did an exact opposite with the characters and not only didn't gain new readers,but lost old faithful readers. Alex Alonso will go down as the worst Marvel Editor in Chief ever. 

 

Edited September 21, 2017 by ComicConnoisseur

[Mercury Man]

4 hours ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

Agree and also I think also is people want Tony Stark as Iron Man, Bruce Banner as Hulk,Steve Rogers as Captain America,Logan as Wolverine and Peter Parker as Spider-Man. Here you got these great universally beloved characters more popular than ever with billion dollar box offices and what does Marvel Comics do? They changed their brand. Instead of using all the new found popularity of the movies their brain trust did an exact opposite with the characters and not only didn't gain new readers,but lost old faithful readers. Alex Alonso will go down as the worst Marvel Editor in Chief ever. 

Look at the marketing and merchandising alone.  Go to Target.  They have Spiderman t-shirts, Hulk pint glasses, Iron Man toys.   All of the mainstays, not the Miles Morales, Cho, or Ri Ri .  Not to mention the movies don't synch with their comic book vision right now.  It boggles the mind what they are doing.   Fire them all.  Shut down publishing for 12 months, and bring people in who know how to WRITE, DRAW, MARKET and SELL comics.   Scale down the offerings as well.   Go back to the early Marvel model.  1 Avengers title, 1 X-Men title, 1 Spiderman title, 1 Iron Man title etc.   but continue to give us the Black Panther, Falcon and Luke Cage titles.  Then create a new junior league or something, leave it as a standalone title, with these new 'generations' characters (kind of like what the current Champions is), and let the public decide if they want it.   Although judging from the Champions sales, not too many people want it.  

[lizards2]

6 hours ago, Jayman said:

They should relaunch Black Goliath as a white guy. I'd buy that, just to read how they reasoned it out! ?

Black Panther too - the white ruler of Wakanda!  Maybe make him British or Dutch for diversity's sake!