Can you over hydrate a book before pressing? 2 2

[joeypost]

17 minutes ago, Quicksilver Signs said:

Okay here are some quick rates from company websites. With Trace Heft likely the most skilled of the lot, certainly in paper conservation knowledge. These are mostly for  non big dollar books but still expensive books

Hero restoration 20.00

CCS  15.00

Trace heft 42.00 (any book regardless of value)

CFP 20.00

Comicsinaflash 15.00

There is no way you're getting 1 or 2 hours work for a single book with these rates. Half hour would be a bargain. Most likely it's less than 15 minutes, I'd assume the pressers are getting a decent wage  

 

I have spent hours on certain books without ever asking for an additional dollar for my services. It comes with the territory. I take out spine rolls, clean and do all the necessary spot work before putting a book in the press. While I don't work for free, it is not always about the money. If you don't believe me ask some of my regulars.  I get a rush when I see a book I worked on sell for a quarter of a million dollars and I did not rip the customer off. 

What are you basing the pricing on? You did not specify a tier or value on the books. 

[Quicksilver Signs]

8 minutes ago, joeypost said:

I have spent hours on certain books without ever asking for an additional dollar for my services. It comes with the territory. I take out spine rolls, clean and do all the necessary spot work before putting a book in the press. While I don't work for free, it is not always about the money. If you don't believe me ask some of my regulars.  I get a rush when I see a book I worked on sell for a quarter of a million dollars and I did not rip the customer off. 

What are you basing the pricing on? You did not specify a tier or value on the books. 

On average nothing over 500.00 fmv, except Heft who will do any book for 42.00 according to his website.  

[RockMyAmadeus]

30 minutes ago, Quicksilver Signs said:

Okay here are some quick rates from company websites. With Trace Heft likely the most skilled of the lot, certainly in paper conservation knowledge. These are mostly for  non big dollar books but still expensive books

Hero restoration 20.00

CCS  15.00

Trace heft 42.00 (any book regardless of value)

CFP 20.00

Comicsinaflash 15.00

There is no way you're getting 1 or 2 hours work for a single book with these rates. Half hour would be a bargain. Most likely it's less than 15 minutes, I'd assume the pressers are getting a decent wage  

 

Not sure what your point is.

There are a lot of pressers who are doing "good enough" work. Of course you're not getting 1 or 2 hours work...but you STILL have not answered my question: have you ever pressed a book, personally, yourself? Are you aware of what it takes?

I guess I haven't really explained myself very clearly. I've already said that spending 1 or 2 hours per book....with all that entails...is too much, unless it's a special book that is worth the effort. Most books aren't. However...if one is spending less than 15 minutes on a single book, they're not spending enough time on it. "Good enough" is not "perfect." It's just "good enough."

And don't think for a second that there aren't pressers out there who say to themselves "ok, this ASM #14 has a grade limiting flaw. Even sending it through the process one more time isn't going to change that. It's good enough for the grade, and it can't grade higher. Done."

I've certainly said that...but if there's something that can be fixed, it still nags at me until it's fixed.

[RockMyAmadeus]

9 minutes ago, Quicksilver Signs said:

On average nothing over 500.00 fmv, except Heft who will do any book for 42.00 according to his website.  

You ARE aware that the vast majority of books under $500 aren't worth the time and cost to press it perfectly, right...?

When you're into the $1,000-$10,000+ range, now we're talking about books that are worth it.

I'm perfectly happy turning a $2,000 book into a $10,000 book...or a $500 book into a $2000 book. I'm not happy turning a $10 book into a $20 book.

It's not about the money. It's about being fair with people and telling them "this isn't worth it. Save your money and send me something that's worthy of the effort."

No one spends time restoring a $5 oil painting their grandmother painted in 1957.

But restoring a Water Lily...? Now we're talking.

[Quicksilver Signs]

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

You ARE aware that the vast majority of books under $500 aren't worth the time and cost to press it perfectly, right...?

When you're into the $1,000-$10,000+ range, now we're talking about books that are worth it.

I'm perfectly happy turning a $2,000 book into a $10,000 book...or a $500 book into a $2000 book. I'm not happy turning a $10 book into a $20 book.

It's not about the money. It's about being fair with people and telling them "this isn't worth it. Save your money and send me something that's worthy of the effort."

No one spends time restoring a $5 oil painting their grandmother painted in 1957.

But restoring a Water Lily...? Now we're talking.

It's 100% worth it to get a SheHulk 1 pressed for less than 20 bucks if it gets you 200 especially if you paid peanuts for it. I would say the majority of collectors consider a $500 book top of their budget. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

21 minutes ago, Quicksilver Signs said:

 

It's 100% worth it to get a SheHulk 1 pressed for less than 20 bucks if it gets you 200 especially if you paid peanuts for it. I would say the majority of collectors consider a $500 book top of their budget. 

You're still missing my point, and I'm still not quite sure what point it is you're trying to make. I didn't say anything about a book you may have "paid peanuts for" and turning it into $200 as "not worth it." I said turning a $10 book into $20 wasn't worth it. And it's not.

Getting a She-Hulk #1 pressed into a 9.8 for "under $20" is part of that "good enough" pressing I was speaking about. A "good enough" presser can (usually) make a good pressing candidate 9.6 into a 9.8. A presser who is a perfectionist can, however, occasionally make a 9.2 or 9.0 into a 9.8. Either way you slice it, however, the difference in value between a 9.0 or 9.2 She-Hulk #1 and a 9.6 She-Hulk #1 doesn't justify the difference in  time and effort that pressing a 9.6 into a 9.8 versus pressing a 9.0 or 9.2 into a 9.8 (if possible.)

AND...a "good enough" presser may NOT be able to turn that 9.6 into a 9.8, where a perfectionist presser might be able to. AND...a "good enough" presser may ruin a 9.8 potential book, where a perfectionist might not.

Know how many She-Hulk #1s have been pressed into 9.4s and 9.6s for $20? And what about She-Hulk #8? #13? #24? How many potentially $200 books do YOU have that you "paid peanuts for"...?

So "good enough" pressers charge $20 or less. Ok. And? I've said all along that "good enough" pressers are perfectly fine for the vast majority of books. Do you disagree with this? There's nothing wrong with "good enough" pressers. But they're just..."good enough." And...again...for the perfectionist, sub-$500 books aren't worth the time and effort to be perfect...just "good enough." You are completely correct, and you get no argument from me: 99.9945% of all comic books published ARE NOT WORTH getting pressed by the best.

Still asking: have you ever pressed, yourself, a comic?

Edited June 25, 2017 by RockMyAmadeus

[Logan510]

How does one qualify what a "good enough" presser is? For some, it seems that the threshold is $20 and under.

For the record, I have had two pressers tell me that the work of other pressers wasn't very good and that they were "better". Then admitting they hadn't seen first hand the work of the other pressers they claimed to be "better" than.

It might be that some pressers use more than one press or are just naturally quicker in their work. Being slow doesn't always equate to being a perfectionist, it equates to being slow.

Case in point, when John Byrne was at the height of his popularity he was drawing 3 full penciled pages per weekday, working from 8-4 with an hour for lunch. There were ( and still are ) artists who struggled to meet a monthly deadline and this guy was producing some of the best work of the period and very quickly. Was his work of a lesser quality because he was able to produce it that fast?

[Quicksilver Signs]

6 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

How does one qualify what a "good enough" presser is? For some, it seems that the threshold is $20 and under.

For the record, I have had two pressers tell me that the work of other pressers wasn't very good and that they were "better". Then admitting they hadn't seen first hand the work of the other pressers they claimed to be "better" than.

It might be that some pressers use more than one press or are just naturally quicker in their work. Being slow doesn't always equate to being a perfectionist, it equates to being slow.

Case in point, when John Byrne was at the height of his popularity he was drawing 3 full penciled pages per weekday, working from 8-4 with an hour for lunch. There were ( and still are ) artists who struggled to meet a monthly deadline and this guy was producing some of the best work of the period and very quickly. Was his work of a lesser quality because he was able to produce it that fast?

No one could pump out the pages like Kirby in the 60's. He's kinda a big deal

[Tony S]

I'm tempted to just post the popcorn thingy. When RMA gets involved, you know things are going to get exciting.  I am not criticizing. I love reading RMA's posts. 

If anyone cares, I'm Comicsinaflash (on the list Quicksliver signs posted) . I rarely mention this, because I'm not on the boards here to drum up business. I like my down time and enjoy just  "talking comics" on the boards here. 

While there are several things I'm sorta inclined to respond to, there is one that keeps coming up here - the amount of time. Interestingly enough, that is one of the questions I'm asked regularly. How much time does it take to press a comic?  My answer is that it's not a simple question to answer.  Usually I'll add that I don't really answer questions that have a flavor of "how". I'm not really sure why I'm answering now.  I guess I just love you guys  

Lots of discussion here about  how pressers cannot possibly spend more than 15 minutes pressing a comic book at current rates commonly found at the comic pressing services. And that isn't long enough. Once again - and this seems to be common in discussions of pressing comic books - people are NOT THINKING the process through. 

I press each comic book individually. I've read crazy things on FB forums where people are pressing 4-8 books at ONE time in giant T-Shirt presses. It's so obviously a bad idea I'm not sure why anyone offers it as advice and anyone follows it. BUT - while I press each book individually, I press MORE than one book at a time.  I have multiple presses. Multiple humidity chambers. I'm sure all the other retail pressing services do the same. Some I'm sure have more than me. The long and short of it is over a period of about  4-4.5 hours- which includes cleaning first - I press about a dozen books.  Each book probably gets close to two hours  attention. . But during pressing that attention is shared with half a dozen other books. For me, about eight books going at once is my limit for keeping track of what I'm working on with each book.  My limiting factors are how many presses I have and how long I want to keep pressing.  I could add more presses but I'm mentally ready for a break after 4+ hours.  If I have a lot of submissions, I can do more than one "batch" a day

In the way of further information, some books do require a second press. Subsequent pressings are typically quicker because most of the defects were taken care of the first time and the book has already been cleaned.  Most pressing services will also do the paperwork for submission to grading companies and of course packaging and shipping books.  All of this takes some time.  CCS and Voldemort's service can skip those steps.  The paperwork is already done and there is no shipping.  

There is nothing wrong with having a single press and a small plastic tub for humidification and spending 4-8 hours pressing a single book. It doesn't sound very cost effective to me. It strikes me as similar to why I don't change my own oil in my cars. But if some people really want to do it themselves, then good for them. As long as they aren't constantly asking me to write out step by step instructions and answer questions. 

Edited June 25, 2017 by Tony S

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, Logan510 said:

How does one qualify what a "good enough" presser is?

You can't; at least not directly. You can indirectly by things like pressable defects remaining, "cockling", "waviness", "smashed spines", and other telltale signs of too aggressive...or not aggressive enough...pressing. Especially if those defects are in the notes. Those aren't absolute, but they generally tell the story.

You can also tell by the fact that someone who is charging "$7" to press a book isn't, by the laws of economics, spending much time on it. They can't, unless they're doing you a huge favor and gifting you their time and expertise.

2 hours ago, Logan510 said:

It might be that some pressers use more than one press or are just naturally quicker in their work. Being slow doesn't always equate to being a perfectionist, it equates to being slow.

Absolutely true! But, then, nobody said it did. Speed is fairly irrelevant in the discussion; it is only a side issue related to the other side of the same not-very-relevant coin: that being slow might mean you're not very good. Being "slow" or "fast" isn't the issue, and never has been. A good presser isn't good because they are fast or slow; a good presser is good because they produce good results. Good results are really the only thing that matters. One can be "fast" because they haven't put in very much effort into the work; one can be "slow" because they haven't put enough time into the work; you have to do both. While speed does have some importance, it is far, far down the list when compared to things like skill, technique, innate ability, care, patience, and the like.

"Naturally quicker in their work" doesn't have much meaning, either, when every book is completely unique in terms of flaws and what it needs to fix those flaws. The books are done when they are done. What THIS copy of Batman Adventures #12 needs is different from what THAT copy of BA #12, and trying to assign a "time limit" to any of those is foolish.

2 hours ago, Logan510 said:

For the record, I have had two pressers tell me that the work of other pressers wasn't very good and that they were "better". Then admitting they hadn't seen first hand the work of the other pressers they claimed to be "better" than.

That's a sign of a bad presser, obviously. How can one possibly determine if they do better work than someone else, if they haven't seen it in hand? That's foolishness. I have seen work done by others, even some of the "top names", and been not impressed. I have been contracted to fix the work of some of these presser. And I'm sure others have seen my work, and not been impressed, and I'm sure others have been contracted to fix my work. The only difference is the willingness to admit that. You're dealing with 30-40-50-60-70 year old paper. It is unforgiving and it is delicate. It is also unpredictable, to a large degree.

Here's an example from my own kudos thread of a client who contracted my services:
 

Quote

 

I sent a batch of books to RMA to work on and submit for me. The attention to detail, updates, evaluations of each and every book and quick responses to questions really stick out. To say I'm pleased with the results would be an understatement. I don't have the books in hand yet, but the grades were spot on or better than expected in several cases.

 

The crown jewel of the bunch has to be the X-Men #64, first appearance of Sunfire that came back a 9.8 with white pages. Just that one book alone paid for my trip to Heroes Con ( where I bought it ) 4 times over.

 

RMA is a good dude, who is very passionate about his craft.

 

 

Thank you

 

I'll leave it to you to guess who that client was.

Could other pressers have gotten those same results? Of course! Would they? Impossible to say. Would ANY presser have gotten the same results? No. Was the client pleased with the results? Absolutely. And that's all that really matters.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Quote

While there are several things I'm sorta inclined to respond to, there is one that keeps coming up here - the amount of time. Interestingly enough, that is one of the questions I'm asked regularly. How much time does it take to press a comic?  My answer is that it's not a simple question to answer.

 

That's like asking "how long should I expect my wife to be in labor?" or "how long will the contractor take to build my house?"

It's done when you see the baby, and can move into the house. Every book is unique, and requires...even if slightly...different approaches to each. People don't understand this.

2 hours ago, Tony S said:

In the way of further information, some books do require a second press

And some require a third, or a fourth, or a fifth...me, I err on the side of gentle, always. It's like getting a haircut...you can always cut off more if you need to, but you can never UNcut if you've cut too much.

It is a balancing act between not enough and too much. Every single book.

Some people opt for force: almost always with bad results.

2 hours ago, Tony S said:

Lots of discussion here about  how pressers cannot possibly spend more than 15 minutes pressing a comic book at current rates commonly found at the comic pressing services. And that isn't long enough. Once again - and this seems to be common in discussions of pressing comic books - people are NOT THINKING the process through. 

I think you're saying that 15 minutes isn't long enough, right? If so, definitely, it's not.

I think people aren't thinking the process through because they've never done it, and have no idea what the process...and it is a PROCESS...entails.

The videos you see online...? Especially the "terrorista" one from 10 years ago? No. Cute, but no.

Edited June 25, 2017 by RockMyAmadeus

[joeypost]

11 hours ago, Quicksilver Signs said:

On average nothing over 500.00 fmv, except Heft who will do any book for 42.00 according to his website.  

That typically costs $15.00 with me, not $20.

[joeypost]

18 hours ago, Logan510 said:

How does one qualify what a "good enough" presser is? For some, it seems that the threshold is $20 and under.

For the record, I have had two pressers tell me that the work of other pressers wasn't very good and that they were "better". Then admitting they hadn't seen first hand the work of the other pressers they claimed to be "better" than.

It might be that some pressers use more than one press or are just naturally quicker in their work. Being slow doesn't always equate to being a perfectionist, it equates to being slow.

Case in point, when John Byrne was at the height of his popularity he was drawing 3 full penciled pages per weekday, working from 8-4 with an hour for lunch. There were ( and still are ) artists who struggled to meet a monthly deadline and this guy was producing some of the best work of the period and very quickly. Was his work of a lesser quality because he was able to produce it that fast?

Or it could be that other pressers are much more in demand. If I did 3-5 books a day I would have a TAT measured in years, not weeks. Let's face it, anyone's can press a 9.6/9.8 into a 9.8. Many of the chest thumpers are already working on books that don't need it just to fuel their ego. 

Edited June 25, 2017 by joeypost

[1Cool]

So . . 8 hours in a humidity chamber is a good thing

[thehumantorch]

25 minutes ago, 1Cool said:

So . . 8 hours in a humidity chamber is a good thing

Sometimes

[joeypost]

15 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:

Sometimes

If your an amphibian.

[thehumantorch]

13 minutes ago, joeypost said:

If your an amphibian.

I over-hydrate all my Submariners and Aquamans....

[Tony S]

2 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:

I over-hydrate all my Submariners and Aquamans....

Beat me to it... 

[thehumantorch]

1 hour ago, Tony S said:

1 hour ago, thehumantorch said:

I over-hydrate all my Submariners and Aquamans....

Beat me to it... 

[Bomber-Bob]

On 6/24/2017 at 6:17 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

 

The worst books to press are the very low grade books, because they always, always look like they've been "squished"? (And don't let anyone try to tell you they "know how to make that not look like that." They're lying. A book that is in the 2.0-3.0 range usually has enough accumulation of flaws that pressing is going to make those flaws look unnaturally flaw, when they should have depth to them.) Do you know that there are few things more breathtaking to behold than a pre-1964 Marvel in 9.4+ condition?

 

A great point. Some flaws look worse after pressing. The lack of depth gives an unnatural appearance to the flaw. A vintage, beat up comic with lots of wear should not be flat. I also dislike it when I see 'dirt' burned into the book.