WONDER WOMAN 2 directed by Patty Jenkins (11/1/19) 3 3

[Bosco685]

2 minutes ago, Xenosmilus said:

Over my head 

Oh, I bet it isn't. 

The good thing is we have so much content still coming from so many studios (Disney, Sony, WB, etc.), a mediocre to bad film will come and go.

[@therealsilvermane]

2.5 out of 5 for a superhero comic book movie.

Slight SPOILERS posted here, but does anybody care? The movie is kinda "spoiled" on arrival.

The opening scene. I don't understand why the Amazons let a 10 year old Diana compete with the adults. Was it to make the participating warrior women who've trained their whole lives feel more worse about themselves? And I also don't get the point of the Olympics scene. It had nothing to do with the rest of the movie and the storytelling shift from ancient Greek Olympics  epic action to a Goonies-esque best of 80's style pace was awkward.

Almost the entire 1st half of the movie was one long long setup. And where was Wonder Woman after the mall scene? This is a Wonder Woman movie, right? Not a Diana Prince movie? For people who didn't like this movie, I think the hour long setup is what killed it. If they'd only spent a half hour on the set up, I probably wouldn't have noticed how clunky it all was, from the antagonists stories to Steve Trevor's re-introduction.

And on Steve Trevor, did the filmmakers feel like Diana losing the guy once wasn't enough? They had to subject our poor heroine to the loss of her true love twice? Ghad, I felt so bad for her character. Maybe she deserves it for hanging on so stubbornly to a guy just because he was her first time. But regardless, he shows up, and I think it was a wasted opportunity to use him to learn more about Diana. Why did she remain in the world of mortals? What has she been doing this whole time if she wasn't Wonder Woman? Has she contributed to the world besides academic research and beating up street criminals? Instead, we wasted too much time with Diana giving Steve a tour through bad 80's culture. And I also had a hard time believing that Diana was okay with her "wish" Steve parasiting off the life, body, and home of another human being. Where did that individual go? I imagine it was something like Get Out where the poor guy's soul was floating in an abyss.

The 2nd half felt a bit more like a superhero movie complete with "hero losing his/her powers" cliche. At least it seems cliche now. I hope Marvel doesn't try to depower Carol in Captain Marvel 2. I prefer heroes discovering powers rather than lose them. Even then, in other movies, the heroes lost the powers outright so it really mattered to the story. In WW84, it was more like losing 25% of her powers, so plot-wise, it was a little vanilla bland.

I liked the "learning to fly" sequence. I thought it was kind of like this sequel's version of the first film's "no man's land" scene. But didn't she learn how to fly and levitate in the first movie as she kicked Ares' butt? Disregarding that, though, I wonder if learning to fly was the entire point of Wonder Woman 1984?

I thought I'd laugh at the fuzzy Cheetah fight scene, but I was so bothered by other aspects of the movie that when she shows up at the end, it was refreshing to finally see a more comic booky element in the movie. I did think the suprise cameo was cool.

Overall, I was bored the first half and didn't really start getting invested into the story until the second half. I don't foresee great success for this movie. I hope that doesn't derail a third Wonder Woman movie. The character and the world deserves that.

Edited December 27, 2020 by @therealsilvermane

[chezmtghut]

It didn't have the same action or appeal as the first film but people are so desensitized to violence that it's hard for most to enjoy a superhero film with little action. It worked for Joker but the magical aspect didn't go over well I guess. Steve Trevor's return reminded me of Quantum Leap, which I loved. It didn't have the best flow at times though. Maybe this scenario would have played out better in an 8 episode streaming series like WandaVision.

[Xenosmilus]

19 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Oh, I bet it isn't. 

The good thing is we have so much content still coming from so many studios (Disney, Sony, WB, etc.), a mediocre to bad film will come and go.

Seriously, I have no idea what you are talking about. It’s like debating you and oddball about how good/bad WW84 is, a movie neither of you two have seen yet . 

Edited December 26, 2020 by Xenosmilus

[Bosco685]

3 minutes ago, Xenosmilus said:

Seriously, I have no idea what you are talking about. It’s like debating you and oddball about how good WW84 is, a movie neither of you two have seen yet . 

I haven't even seen the film yet. So how could I debate how good, mediocre or bad it is? Goof.  

[Xenosmilus]

4 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

I haven't even seen the film yet. So how could I debate how good, mediocre or bad it is? Goof.  

Exactly! So I’m not sure why you are adding your  yet!

[drotto]

I have not watched the movie yet, but what I am hearing is not encouraging.  I know this film was delayed, and it was rumored the studio forced many changes into the movie to serve as almost a soft reboot point for the DCEU. To the point it was rumored that a good portion of the ending was actually rewritten or re-edited. Am I correct in my gut feeling, that this is now confirmed? 

[Gatsby77]

8 hours ago, Werner_Von_Doom said:

If the first WW movie was an 8, this was a 2.

I'm still processing but this seems to sum up my feelings so far.

I enjoyed it while watching it, mostly for the joy of seeing more Wonder Woman adventures.

But by the end I thought it was merely mediocre - an incredible letdown, esp. after how amazing the first film was. It was equivalent to watching a forgettable Bond film (like watching Quantum of Solace after Casino Royale).

I thought the acting by Gal Gadot, Kristin Wiig and Pedro Pascale was phenomenal.

Spoiler

 

Likewise, I loved the mid-credits scene and the deus ex machina of the lasso of truth's reverse polarity that ultimately saved the day - clever, and not something I'd seen in the comics (equivalent to The Avengers' "I'm always angry").

Also, the first two scenes for me (Themiscyra and the mall) were so good I actually watched them again after the film finished.

So what bugged me?

- At the end of Wonder Woman, Diana's in France and flies off to continue her world-saving adventures. Yet here she is 40 years later, and her existence is still a secret? Did she give up crime-fighting for 40 years?

- Cheetah's reduced essentially to a sidekick / henchman for Maxwell Lord (biggest abomination since Bane's being the same for Poison Ivy in Batman & Robin). The character deserved better.

- Minerva's whole character arc could have been avoided if Diana just took her to dinner a second time.

- Diana clearly slept with the not-Steve dude while he was possessed by Steve. Umm...that might have been okay in a comedy like "Being John Malkovich" but is problematic in a "family film," esp. in the post-"Me Too" era.

- Lord's son wished for his dad to return, and yet he doesn't immediately go "poof" and return to him. So...did Lord have to literally grant every person on earth's wish individually?

 

But these are all minor plot nits compared to the overall feeling that it was just meh.

I expected better, esp. from Geoff Johns.

Edited December 26, 2020 by Gatsby77

[Gatsby77]

6 minutes ago, drotto said:

I have not watched the movie yet, but what I am hearing is not encouraging.  I know this film was delayed, and it was rumored the studio forced many changes into the movie to serve as almost a soft reboot point for the DCEU. To the point it was rumored that a good portion of the ending was actually rewritten or re-edited. Am I correct in my gut feeling, that this is now confirmed? 

Unlike the first film, the ending's not the problem with this one - it's more the lackluster overall plot and execution of the middle.

Edited December 26, 2020 by Gatsby77

[drotto]

2 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Unlike the first film, the ending's not the problem with this one - it's more the lackluster overall plot and execution of the middle.

My wife is going to be so disappointed.  She loves wonder woman, and loved the first film.  Even did a full out cosplay of her after teh first film.

 

[WeR138]

I don't know how this --script ever got the green light.

I enjoyed Suicide Squad more.

Having said that, I felt sorry for the actors.  They did  what they could and did it very well.  

Edited December 27, 2020 by WeR138

[Bosco685]

21 minutes ago, Xenosmilus said:

Exactly! So I’m not sure why you are adding your  yet!

Let me remind you. You were taking shots at the Snyder Cut yet again. So you getting a ribbing over that. So maybe enjoy  to your . 

[Xenosmilus]

4 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Let me remind you. You were taking shots at the Snyder Cut yet again. So you getting a ribbing over that. So maybe enjoy  to your . 

Yes a “Snyder cut” for WW84.

[Bosco685]

6 minutes ago, Xenosmilus said:

Yes a “Snyder cut” for WW84.

So you haven't seen the movie yet. But already joking about a Snyder Cut. Sure. That's normal.   

[Gatsby77]

1 hour ago, Larryw7 said:

I'm disappointed with the reviews,  but I still plan to watch it tonight with an open mind. The comparisons to the Reeve Superman movies intrigues me, because I think they're the best Superhero movies. In my opinion, the only other films that equal them are Nolan's trilogy, Raimi's Spider-Man 2, and IW.

 

You saw he said Superman III, right?

[Xenosmilus]

7 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

So you haven't seen the movie yet. But already joking about a Snyder Cut. Sure. That's normal.   

Jesus man, go back and read the thread. I did see the movie. It was a big pile of steaming poo. Someone made a joke about it being so bad they should make a “Snyder Cut”  

[Bosco685]

5 minutes ago, Xenosmilus said:

Jesus man, go back and read the thread. I did see the movie. It was a big pile of steaming poo. Someone made a joke about it being so bad they should make a “Snyder Cut”  

Lighten up, Francis. People are just adding their  like you have. 

As far as steaming poo, I'll know for myself in a little bit. 

[Bosco685]

This guy must have watched WW84 too.

Burn it all down! 

[Gatsby77]

Edited December 26, 2020 by Gatsby77

[Crimebuster]

I have a lot of thoughts about this film. The short version: it was mediocre. I'd probably give it a B-. 

This film is far more ambitious than the first movie. The first one was trying to do just one thing: present a good version of the character. It succeeded very well at that. Otherwise, it wasn't even trying to do anything else - the plot was literally "let's walk from point A to point B and then hit a guy in the moustache." 

This one, on the other hand, was trying to do way, way too much. It had several overlapping character arcs and plot points going on, and the movie was actually about something (more on that in a moment). So overall, I think it succeeded in doing more than the first movie. It also failed a whole lot more than the first movie. Instead of doing one thing well, it did like 11 things to varying degrees of success and failure. 

The main problem with the movie is that it's not about Diana. Her "arc" is courtesy of a tacked-on ending. Without that, the character doesn't change or grow at all over the course of the movie. Likewise, it's not a Cheetah film either - Wiig is great and the character is really interesting, and her dynamic with Diana probably should have been the focus of the film. But it wasn't, and so we just don't get enough of Dr. Minerva.

No, the film is about Max Lord. It's his movie. HIs plot, and his character arc, are central. Personally, I think they mostly succeeded with his very ambitious storyline, but it's a problem when a Wonder Woman movie isn't about either Wonder Woman or her archenemy, but rather some third dude.

I do think the Lord stuff was really interesting and I personally loved Pedro Pasqual's performance, but I can't believe nobody else has mentioned...

Spoiler

 

...that he's playing Donald Trump. The movie is about Donald Trump. I don't want to get into any political discussions, as it's against the board rules, but it's pretty clear I thought what they were doing - the 80's setting, the "con man" stuff where desperate people believe in lies, leading to his rise to power and causing the destruction of the world. It's made pretty obvious I think through the visuals - my wife commented more than once about how weird Pasqual looked with his big fake orange/blond hairdo, which is a very intentional choice. Then at the end, they pose him for his insane speech in front of the seal of the President of the United States — he literally usurps power from the rightful president and then goes on a destructive lie-filled rant on international TV in a replica of the White House Press room while his orange bouffant blows wildly in the breeze. 

I thought as an allegory about Trump's cult of personality, the film was really ambitious and well done, and a cinematic success. 

It just came at the cost of literally everything else in the movie. 

 

 

Also, I guess this needs spoilers too,

Spoiler

 

For me, I think it would have been better if they had focused on the Diana-Minerva relationship. The arc with Steve, and with her losing her powers, could have been much better done as well as part of that. Diana only really has one flaw - her naivete. It was the central theme of the first movie, but 60 years later, she's still got it in this film in the way she interacts with Cheetah after the wishes. She has no understanding of what Minerva has gone through in her life, because Diana is always the strongest, most powerful, most beautiful, and most self-assured person in any room. So it's super easy for her to ask Minerva to renounce her wish, because she has no clue what it's been like for Minerva. 

This is where Diana losing her powers should have come in. I've heard people mention parallels to Superman III or the Donner version of Lex Luthor, but actually, the movie I thought of immediately was Superman II, because Diana's arc in this movie is exactly the same as Superman's in Superman II. They both renounce their power in order to be with their one true love, a megalomaniac takes over the world in their absence, and they have to sacrifice their love and happiness in order to regain their power and save the world. The key difference is, while Superman is powerless, he learns first hand just how hard it is to be a human being - to be vulnerable, to have fear, to be bullied by stronger people. He also learns that he can't renounce being Superman because its a fundamental part of who he is. Diana, however, doesn't learn either of these things because she never lives without her powers, because the film is too crowded to allow that space. Having Diana go through that and learn what life is actually like for the women of the world who aren't demigods, and contrasting that with Minerva' suddenly discovering what it's like to be on top after a lifetime of powerlessness, would have been much more compelling than what they gave us. 

I wouldn't have allowed them room to do the Max Lord-Trump stuff, though, which is what I suspect was the central building block this whole film was built around.

 

 

I give this film a lot of credit for trying to do things and say things. I just wish it had focused and actually accomplished more of those goals.