Marvel's Retailer Breakfast falls off the rails
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I found this article somewhere else, but copied it from Bleeding Cool because it had a little more information.
Read thru then give your take. There are a lot of good points here. My only thought it why cant Marvel more new 
characters instead of changing old ones.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/10/05/heated-scenes-marvel-retailer-nycc/

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2 hours ago, fastballspecial said:

Read thru then give your take. There are a lot of good points here. My only thought it why cant Marvel more new 
characters instead of changing old ones.

I think it boils down to lazy writing, and the fear that a completely new character will not do well in terms of sales.  This applies to all new characters, not just minority, gay, hermaphrodite etc.   When is the last time Marvel actually created a new character that sustained decent sales, stood on his/her own and made an impact on the Marvel Universe as well as pop culture?  Deadpool?  So 25+ years!?  Instead of that route, they just change the identity behind the mask.  It's easier for them. 

Facts are, the heroes from the 1960's/1970's at Marvel are the ones that people still identify with.   If it's comics, or movies, or merchandising, Bruce Banner is Hulk, Steve Rogers is Captain America, Peter Parker is Spiderman.   Miles Morales is not Spiderman, he is not even Spiderkid.  He's a trumped up, alternate universe decoy, created for no other reason than to forcibly diversify, and now he gets jammed into the regular Marvel time stream, and we are just supposed to kind of accept it.   If anything, it's more confusing than ever to pick up a Marvel title.   Why couldn't Miles Morales be created with some other type of superhero identity, completely original?   See my comment in first paragraph**

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There is no incentive for creators working for Marvel or DC to extend themselves and waste time or energy to create new characters or epic lengthy storylines because they won't have ownership or even control over the character they create and whatever storyline is planned will likely be abandoned in favor of a title reboot or be interrupted/cancelled by an event or crossover. 

 

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The same reason that the people making the movies keep making the same movies over and over again - because we buy those more frequently than we buy things we don't recognize.

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2 hours ago, darkstar said:

There is no incentive for creators working for Marvel or DC to extend themselves and waste time or energy to create new characters or epic lengthy storylines because they won't have ownership or even control over the character they create and whatever storyline is planned will likely be abandoned in favor of a title reboot or be interrupted/cancelled by an event or crossover

A 20 something kid doesn't understand that. They are just happy to be working in the industry for Marvel or DC. Once they get a few years under their belt then they leave for bigger money. Its been happening for decades. Compensation has gotten much better along with insurance and other benefits.

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I keep waiting for DC to turn Vertigo into a similar model to Image and take control of the creator-owned market. It would not be difficult. 

The problem with Marvel right now is a lack of creative talent. The cupboard is really bare on the writing front, and even worse for artwork. That being said, as long as the Marvel zombies keep buying the books, and the movie universe continues to thrive, there is no reason to change.

 

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11 hours ago, kimik said:

I keep waiting for DC to turn Vertigo into a similar model to Image and take control of the creator-owned market. It would not be difficult. 

The problem with Marvel right now is a lack of creative talent. The cupboard is really bare on the writing front, and even worse for artwork. That being said, as long as the Marvel zombies keep buying the books, and the movie universe continues to thrive, there is no reason to change.

 

+1

After marvel lost the likes of Rick Remender, Hickman, Fraction, etc the writing has been pretty bad. Me personally thank goodness for Dan Slott. He's my marvel rock.

Meanwhile marvel could have snagged gerard way a while ago but didn't and just let really good writers like Marjorie Liu go. 

Add that to the fact that we cant get 50 issues into a series without a relaunch anymore and their need to put out new number 1 issues with 4.99 price tags has my marvel pull list down to 2 books a month. Being a huge x-men fan is crazy as I stopped reading x-men after the 3rd or 4th relaunch of uncanny. 

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16 hours ago, fastballspecial said:

A 20 something kid doesn't understand that. They are just happy to be working in the industry for Marvel or DC. Once they get a few years under their belt then they leave for bigger money. Its been happening for decades. Compensation has gotten much better along with insurance and other benefits.

Whatever compensation is given by the big 2 pales in comparison to what a creator can earn if they come up with the next Spawn or Hellboy. Absolutely no reason in this day and age to create a new IP and effectively give it away to Marvel or DC. 

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On 10/7/2017 at 2:30 PM, Mercury Man said:

I think it boils down to lazy writing, and the fear that a completely new character will not do well in terms of sales.  This applies to all new characters, not just minority, gay, hermaphrodite etc.   When is the last time Marvel actually created a new character that sustained decent sales, stood on his/her own and made an impact on the Marvel Universe as well as pop culture?  Deadpool?  So 25+ years!?  Instead of that route, they just change the identity behind the mask.  It's easier for them. 

Facts are, the heroes from the 1960's/1970's at Marvel are the ones that people still identify with.   If it's comics, or movies, or merchandising, Bruce Banner is Hulk, Steve Rogers is Captain America, Peter Parker is Spiderman.   Miles Morales is not Spiderman, he is not even Spiderkid.  He's a trumped up, alternate universe decoy, created for no other reason than to forcibly diversify, and now he gets jammed into the regular Marvel time stream, and we are just supposed to kind of accept it.   If anything, it's more confusing than ever to pick up a Marvel title.   Why couldn't Miles Morales be created with some other type of superhero identity, completely original?   See my comment in first paragraph**

You make an excellent point, why hasn't Marvel created any really new characters that have caught on over the last 25 years? 

If you look at the TV industry they're constantly cancelling shows and created new properties.  I understand they're entirely different industries, but clearly Marvel is trying to milk long established characters or spin lazy copycat characters rather than develop fresh new characters with different powers and mythos.

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1 hour ago, darkstar said:

Whatever compensation is given by the big 2 pales in comparison to what a creator can earn if they come up with the next Spawn or Hellboy. Absolutely no reason in this day and age to create a new IP and effectively give it away to Marvel or DC. 

I don't disagree just saying at the age they start they aren't thinking about that. At least 95% of them aren't. 

 

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52 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:
On ‎10‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 3:30 PM, Mercury Man said:

applies to all new characters, not just minority, gay, hermaphrodite etc.   When is the last time Marvel actually created a new character that sustained decent sales, stood on his/her own and made an impact on the Marvel Universe as well as pop culture?  Deadpool?  So 25+ years!?  Instead of that route, they just change the identity behind the mask.  It's easier for them. 

Facts are, the heroes from the 1960's/1970's at Marvel are the ones that people still identify with.   If it's comics, or movies, or merchandising, Bruce Banner is Hulk, Steve Rogers is Captain America, Peter Parker is Spiderman.   Miles Morales is not Spiderman, he is not even Spiderkid.  He's a trumped up, alternate universe decoy, created for no other reason than to forcibly diversify, and now he gets jammed into the regular Marvel time stream, and we are just supposed to kind of accept it.   If anything, it's more confusing than ever to pick up a Marvel title.   Why couldn't Miles Morales be created with some other type of superhero identity, completely original?   See my comment in first paragraph**

You make an excellent point, why hasn't Marvel created any really new characters that have caught on over the last 25 years? 

If you look at the TV industry they're constantly cancelling shows and created new properties.  I understand they're entirely different industries, but clearly Marvel is trying to milk long established characters or spin lazy copycat characters rather than develop fresh new characters with different powers and mythos.

The Fox TV show the Gifted is a decent example other than Blink. You are seeing new characters emerge. It cant be that hard.

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Just now, fastballspecial said:

The Fox TV show the Gifted is a decent example other than Blink. You are seeing new characters emerge. It cant be that hard.

If Marvel was a new company and starting from scratch they'd create a whole new stable of characters.  They're clearly focused on the past and iterations of  past characters.  They need to hire some crazy young guys and tell them to get creative and give them an incentive.

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19 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:

If Marvel was a new company and starting from scratch they'd create a whole new stable of characters.  They're clearly focused on the past and iterations of  past characters.  They need to hire some crazy young guys and tell them to get creative and give them an incentive.

The problem is people are accepting as a truism that a good book will equal market share success... it is not the case. 

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2 hours ago, SquareChaos said:

The problem is people are accepting as a truism that a good book will equal market share success... it is not the case. 

But consider the resources Marvel/Disney can use to promote, as opposed to a smaller publisher who may be churning out some amazing stuff, with little recognition.    

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I would think the chances of success of a good book are much higher these days then any other time in comic books. 
So many ways of communicating your book now. Its all about self promotion these days.

 

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Long answer:Tthe writers and artists at Marvel seem to be hell bent on the diversity thing to drive home a point instead of just doing great stories ( Vision and Moon Knight being exceptional exceptions) and after picking up some of the Generations issues, the art looks like the worst Archie books ever and I put them right back on the shelf.

Short answer: By doing reboots of established characters (black, female etc) Marvel doesnt have to pay royalties to creators. I'm sure this was already said, but didn't read thru the whole thread because it's kinds late.

I got that new issue of FOOM that was free at the LCS and the names that are shown for the late 1960's Marvel Bullpen, legends upon legends: Stan Lee, Neal Adams, Ayers, John Buscema, Gene Colan, Johnny Craig, Bill Everett, Don Heck, Gil Kane, John Romita , Jim Steranko, Roy Thomas.. point being, Marvel doesn't have anyone today who is worth carrying their lunch bag

Edited by Lonzilla

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On ‎10‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 2:02 AM, Lonzilla said:

Long answer:Tthe writers and artists at Marvel seem to be hell bent on the diversity thing to drive home a point instead of just doing great stories ( Vision and Moon Knight being exceptional exceptions) and after picking up some of the Generations issues, the art looks like the worst Archie books ever and I put them right back on the shelf.

Short answer: By doing reboots of established characters (black, female etc) Marvel doesnt have to pay royalties to creators. I'm sure this was already said, but didn't read thru the whole thread because it's kinds late.

I got that new issue of FOOM that was free at the LCS and the names that are shown for the late 1960's Marvel Bullpen, legends upon legends: Stan Lee, Neal Adams, Ayers, John Buscema, Gene Colan, Johnny Craig, Bill Everett, Don Heck, Gil Kane, John Romita , Jim Steranko, Roy Thomas.. point being, Marvel doesn't have anyone today who is worth carrying their lunch bag

well said my friend. The diversity for the sake of diversity has just gotten out of hand, just like the media and Hollywood they need to go back to their roots and figure a way out to create new characters here and there versus making thor a girl and captain America black. I have many friends and family now from various backgrounds and heritages and can't seem one to find that agrees with how Marvel is approaching their current !

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Everyone that wants Marvel & DC to create new things... you're barking up the wrong tree. That isn't the business they're in - they're in the 'Hey remember Captain America? Hey, remember *snikt*? Hey, remember up up and away?! Superman, right? How about that Batman? And look, here is the Joker, they're fighting it out for the 10,000th time, but this time, it is totally for all of the marbles, it's totally meaningful!' Sometimes you'll get a particularly talented creative team and they'll whip up something special, but that is not the norm. This doesn't mean you can't enjoy what they're peddling, but you need to have reasonable expectations.


If you really care about new characters and situations, you can pick up a whole new set of problems (scheduling, abrupt abandoning of a series, etc)  to complain about by reading more creator owned work.

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3 hours ago, SquareChaos said:

If you really care about new characters and situations, you can pick up a whole new set of problems (scheduling, abrupt abandoning of a series, etc)  to complain about by reading more creator owned work.

Unfortunately, this. Most Image titles work better if you're trade waiting. That way, a year or two in between books doesn't seem so bad.

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5 hours ago, 1p36DSA said:

well said my friend. The diversity for the sake of diversity has just gotten out of hand, just like the media and Hollywood they need to go back to their roots and figure a way out to create new characters here and there versus making thor a girl and captain America black. I have many friends and family now from various backgrounds and heritages and can't seem one to find that agrees with how Marvel is approaching their current !

With the words reportedly being thrown around, I don't think some feel diversity it's necessary.

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